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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 14 2014 : 10:40:30 PM
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Feel free to debate or share your point of view on any of the below.
1- Emotional reactions will disappear with enlightenment or spiritual mastery (if you don't believe in enlightenment)?
2- Emotional reactions are only signs of our impurities or flaws within?
3- We must purify ourselves (and if so from what)?
4- Enlightenment is the goal for all human beings?
5- Human beings interested in spirituality and practicing spirituality are more evolved than other human beings?
6- Spiritually advanced human beings have more to offer the rest of humanity than other non-spiritual people?
7- Knowing ourselves as nothingness is the end of spiritual/ consciousness expansion or the goal of enlightenment?
8- Unity or knowing oneness with all that is, is the goal and the end of our learning or expansion of consciousness or enlightenment?
9- Our goal is to love all people all the time?
10- We should, with the end of the spiritual journey of consciousness expansion/ enlightenment, feel love, bliss and ecstasy all the time without other emotions being present.
11- There is such thing as enlightenment or the end of consciousness expansion?
12- The goal is love/ bliss, Oneness with God in all moments?
13- Spiritually evolved human beings are here to save us/ the planet.
14- Once we are spiritual masters we can finally escape our turbulent human existence?
If you can think of any others that ou find interesting, please add. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2014 : 12:15:53 AM
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I hope i dont sound dissmissive, but these questions miss the point in my opinion.
There are no goals. There is only an unfolding of ourselves.
There is perfection, and imperfection. It is a spectrum of change.
When someone becomes realized in this lifetime, it is only the beginning and maybe sees just how far away from perfection we are.
There is so much more, and its completely infused with infinite, tangible love.
There is no goal, it just is. Now, in this world the mind creates a very dense duality (though duality exists in other worlds I'd imagine) and we have to use goal oriented thinking in order to survive. Its a good thing.
But you can't ask ultimate questions from a limited perspective like the ego's because the answers will never make sense. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2014 : 10:41:40 AM
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Hi anthem,
I am happy to share my perspective on your questions....
1- Emotional reactions will disappear with enlightenment or spiritual mastery (if you don't believe in enlightenment)?
Emotional reactions (like anger and irritation) are autopilot responses in the subconscious. A stored energy structure that responds to stimuli. Drop the issue/structure and the automated response also drops. Or said another way, when residing in the moment, one is "free" to respond however they want.
2- Emotional reactions are only signs of our impurities or flaws within?
As above, emotional reactions are responses attached to memories and fears.
3- We must purify ourselves (and if so from what)?
No need to remove energy obstructions if you don't want to.
4- Enlightenment is the goal for all human beings?
Whatever anyone chooses for a goal is up to them. Also, everyone seems to declare "done" with different expressions of what "is".
5- Human beings interested in spirituality and practicing spirituality are more evolved than other human beings?
Definitely not necessarily the case. Many "spiritual" people have very large egos.
6- Spiritually advanced human beings have more to offer the rest of humanity than other non-spiritual people?
Guess it depends on what you think the "goal" is.
7- Knowing ourselves as nothingness is the end of spiritual/ consciousness expansion or the goal of enlightenment?
Knowing oneself as nothingness is only half of the equation. One must also know oneself to also be "everything".
8- Unity or knowing oneness with all that is, is the goal and the end of our learning or expansion of consciousness or enlightenment?
Again, goals are for each to choose. But, but oneness with all that is has infinite layers to it. The integration with all that is never really stops. Additionally, one ultimately notices the "fabric" or "framework" of all that is.
9- Our goal is to love all people all the time?
Again, goals are a choice. But universal love is more like "radiating" than loving.
10- We should, with the end of the spiritual journey of consciousness expansion/ enlightenment, feel love, bliss and ecstasy all the time without other emotions being present.
If one is "feeling" stuff, they are translating "what is" into the mind and definitely not near any "end".
11- There is such thing as enlightenment or the end of consciousness expansion?
As above, there is no "end" of consciousness expansion. It is infinite. But one can realize the framework.
12- The goal is love/ bliss, Oneness with God in all moments?
Guess it depends upon how one defines "God". But any definition is itself self limiting.
13- Spiritually evolved human beings are here to save us/ the planet.
There are many very cool beings hanging around. But what they "do" is a matter of perspective.
14- Once we are spiritual masters we can finally escape our turbulent human existence?
With clarity, there is no "turbulent". Just amusing "what the hell" stuff.
My two cents. 
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Edited by - jeff on Mar 15 2014 10:42:55 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2014 : 12:57:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem
13- Spiritually evolved human beings are here to save us/ the planet.
I have similar aspirations, but I can't help but share this George Carlin piece on the subject (it's certainly cynical, but there's plenty of penetrating self-inquiry in there):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c
Great questions. Thank you.  |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2014 : 1:16:57 PM
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| lol that video was awesome Bodhi. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2014 : 09:32:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
I hope i dont sound dissmissive, but these questions miss the point in my opinion.
There are no goals. There is only an unfolding of ourselves.
There is perfection, and imperfection. It is a spectrum of change.
When someone becomes realized in this lifetime, it is only the beginning and maybe sees just how far away from perfection we are.
There is so much more, and its completely infused with infinite, tangible love.
There is no goal, it just is. Now, in this world the mind creates a very dense duality (though duality exists in other worlds I'd imagine) and we have to use goal oriented thinking in order to survive. Its a good thing.
But you can't ask ultimate questions from a limited perspective like the ego's because the answers will never make sense.
Hi tonightisthenight,
Yes that is the point, these questions are variations of common types of ideas that seem to pervade the thinking of many spiritual seekers. Without them, there is a greater capacity to experience life fully as it unfolds. Without concrete beliefs that define the world, we shed our limited point of view.
quote:
When someone becomes realized in this lifetime, it is only the beginning and maybe sees just how far away from perfection we are.
I see this in a different way, that we are already perfectly human, there isn't some perfected state to obtain. This idea would be a source of pain and suffering for someone in my opinion if it was believed that there was a lack or flaws within that prevented or blocked someone from achieving some perfected state in the future. We are perfectly beingness as we are, any experiences that arise aren't signs of imperfections, but simply opportunities to learn and expand consciousness.
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2014 : 10:13:57 AM
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Indeed Anthem. These are questions asked by the dualistic mind. So they are a seekers questions rather than a sages questions.
I also accept the we are 'perfect' in our imperfection. I don't intend to say that imperfect means lacking. Rather, that in order to have perfection one must accept imperfection, but in fact these things are the same thing.
So the imperfect self is just the perfect self with an adventure ahead of it  |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2014 : 10:48:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem
I see this in a different way, that we are already perfectly human, there isn't some perfected state to obtain. This idea would be a source of pain and suffering for someone in my opinion if it was believed that there was a lack or flaws within that prevented or blocked someone from achieving some perfected state in the future. We are perfectly beingness as we are, any experiences that arise aren't signs of imperfections, but simply opportunities to learn and expand consciousness.
Hi Anthem:
Yes, there are many illusions, trails and goals we follow for whatever reasons. But these all comprise our journey, don't they? Can they be skipped over out of hand, or are we doing best to grow through and eventually beyond them, according to our needs in the present, and the unique path we are each following? The very lessons we need from life are embedded in the illusions and the seeking, and that is the perfection. It is the rise of abiding inner silence that penetrates the illusion, not the mind. In stillness the perfection becomes apparent.
For some, your view above will be a useful inquiry, or affirmation. For others, it will be a mental trap. It all depends on how much inner silence (witness) is available. One will be relational in stillness, bringing more freedom. The other will not. There is a world of difference. While ultimate truth is what it is, that does not mean one way of approaching it will fit all.
This is a common mistake made in neo-advaita teachings - the assumption that all have equal conscious beingness (witness) available, and that there are no prerequisites like meditation necessary. It simply is not true. If it were true, the world would be a very different place.
It is good that you have arrived at this understanding after years of practice. But it does not mean others can arrive there without their years of practice. And even with this understanding, can we be sure we are are not using the logic of it to avoid the challenges of reaching a deeper understanding and integration? With a stable daily practice, we are not left with such an uncertainty.
If accepting life as it is has, by necessity, become your stable daily practice, and you know with certainty that this is all there is for you to do, then this is very good. But this will not be a useful approach for everyone. There is a lot of history of seeking and practices that brought you to this point, and that history was certainly not a waste of your time and energy. Nor are seeking and practices a waste of time and energy for anyone else. All things in their own time...
There are no shortcuts, at least not in the mind.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
PS: I am reminded of this lesson called "The Art of Doing Nothing": http://aypsite.org/84.html
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2014 : 11:09:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
And even with this understanding, can we be sure we are are not using the logic of it to avoid the challenges of reaching a deeper understanding and integration?
Yes, yes, yes! That strikes to the heart of the matter! I'm inspired by the people who are making innovative changes beyond abstract words. Craftsmen, artists, scientists, game-changers. Not just some guy sitting in front of a satsang talking about the True Nature of Reality. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2014 : 11:19:11 AM
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Hilarious video
Back to the questions:
There is nothing wrong with our emotions and our turbulent existence. What needs to be changed is our worrying, overly excited reaction to these things, and thinking something is wrong.
Also, thinking we are better than someone else is the problem to begin with, so it is counterproductive to think it could be in the solution to the same problem. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2014 : 9:12:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi anthem,
I am happy to share my perspective on your questions....
1- Emotional reactions will disappear with enlightenment or spiritual mastery (if you don't believe in enlightenment)?
Emotional reactions (like anger and irritation) are autopilot responses in the subconscious. A stored energy structure that responds to stimuli. Drop the issue/structure and the automated response also drops. Or said another way, when residing in the moment, one is "free" to respond however they want.
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for playing with this, it will be interesting to see where it leads.
Yes I see it the same way, emotional reactions can be autopilot responses when they are in reaction to our own historical thinking or beliefs. Once beliefs are no longer clung to and are no longer concrete, emotional reactions like anger and irritation become vital responses (rather than reactions) and information about our environment and interactions with others. For example, someone accidentally swerves into your lane while driving. An emotional reaction arises, bringing great energy for focus and clarity for the appropriate action to take. Do we sit there all benign in a state of bliss and say oh this must be God's will and let them hit us? I don't think so. God's will is to respond naturally as well. There is more to us than our minds and I am sure you have noticed that our body's our programmed with a healthy amount of self preservation.
As for anger, it sometimes is the perfect response to help another person realize themselves and the consequences of their actions. The bible provides an example of this in the famous scene of Jesus and the money changers in the temple.
From my point of view, our emotions are quite natural and alert us to unaware or unbalanced behaviour by others as well.
quote:
7- Knowing ourselves as nothingness is the end of spiritual/ consciousness expansion or the goal of enlightenment?
Knowing oneself as nothingness is only half of the equation. One must also know oneself to also be "everything".
I see this the same way, except for it being half of the equation. I see them all as steps along the way of consciousness expansion as you mention later in this post.
quote:
10- We should, with the end of the spiritual journey of consciousness expansion/ enlightenment, feel love, bliss and ecstasy all the time without other emotions being present.
If one is "feeling" stuff, they are translating "what is" into the mind and definitely not near any "end".
I don't think I understand what you mean here. If you could elaborate, it would be helpful.
All the best!
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2014 : 08:49:59 AM
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Hi Anthem,
I guess I would slightly disagree with you. I don't see heightened awareness as "anger" while someone one cuts in to your lane, that is just paying greater attention. Anger would be more like road rage where you become more distracted wanting to "get even". If it is true anger (not pretending), then it is always about you and not the other person. Anger can be good at highlighting our own issues, but projecting it on others is rarely helpful.
On my response to point 10, it ties into above regarding the difference between emotional responses and being in the moment (like fully aware when driving). If one is "feeling stuff" like emotions or bliss, they are not naturally driving the car, they are subconsciously thinking about that asshole jerk who cut them off on the road.
Regards,
Jeff
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2014 : 09:16:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Anger can be good at highlighting our own issues, but projecting it on others is rarely helpful.
What about projecting it onto our chosen ideal (ishta)? Is hating God a waste of time? |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2014 : 11:22:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Anger can be good at highlighting our own issues, but projecting it on others is rarely helpful.
What about projecting it onto our chosen ideal (ishta)? Is hating God a waste of time?
Hi Bodhi,
I think projecting anger towards your Ishta can be a decent step, if one actually surrenders (let's it go) it.
But, in general I think it is more helpful to try to "watch" yourself getting angry. At first, you start to see it, but can't really help yourself and still get angry. Later, one find that they can see it and actually catch it. And, after a while, you see it and find yourself sort of laughing at yourself for the silliness of it. Ultimately, it just drops.
Best regards. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2014 : 11:57:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
But, in general I think it is more helpful to try to "watch" yourself getting angry. At first, you start to see it, but can't really help yourself and still get angry. Later, one find that they can see it and actually catch it. And, after a while, you see it and find yourself sort of laughing at yourself for the silliness of it. Ultimately, it just drops.
Heard. 
(Just wanted to use the "kisses" emoticon because I've never used it before.) |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2014 : 2:13:15 PM
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Thanks for the kisses.  |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2014 : 3:04:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem
I see this in a different way, that we are already perfectly human, there isn't some perfected state to obtain. This idea would be a source of pain and suffering for someone in my opinion if it was believed that there was a lack or flaws within that prevented or blocked someone from achieving some perfected state in the future. We are perfectly beingness as we are, any experiences that arise aren't signs of imperfections, but simply opportunities to learn and expand consciousness.
Hi Anthem:
Yes, there are many illusions, trails and goals we follow for whatever reasons. But these all comprise our journey, don't they? Can they be skipped over out of hand, or are we doing best to grow through and eventually beyond them, according to our needs in the present, and the unique path we are each following? The very lessons we need from life are embedded in the illusions and the seeking, and that is the perfection. It is the rise of abiding inner silence that penetrates the illusion, not the mind. In stillness the perfection becomes apparent.
Hi Yogani,
Yes, I see it this way as well, all paths are unique and the lessons are imbedded in the illiusions. I would make one distinction, that it is the seeing that is critical and not the seeking. Seeking externally leads us away from ourselves in my experience, and it is in the seeing (from silence) that the learning becomes apparent. I think people would be better served to direct any undesirable emotional energy to see with intensity into the present moment. This way, what is being shown can become apparent in time, rather than looking outside of themselves which in itself is the beginning of suffering.
quote:
For some, your view above will be a useful inquiry, or affirmation. For others, it will be a mental trap. It all depends on how much inner silence (witness) is available. One will be relational in stillness, bringing more freedom. The other will not. There is a world of difference. While ultimate truth is what it is, that does not mean one way of approaching it will fit all.
Yes totally agree, one way does not fit all, but are you suggesting not to share a differing perspective if there is a risk it will be unrelational to some? Some will find value, some will not and eventually move on. The primary teacher of Life (What Is) will sort out the details for each I expect in time. From my experience, there can be great value in hearing differing perspectives from others which can also serve to expand consciousness and increase silence as fixed ideas fall away.
People can say they are perfect all they want, it doesn't pre-empt that there will always be learning to do, integration and expansion of consciousness to come. Only in a system which promises an end goal, is there a need to prompt people to continue their walking along the path. If life is seen as it is, a continuous learning experience of consciousness expansion, then there is no need to stop. We can try to avoid learning but I suspect it won't last.
quote:
This is a common mistake made in neo-advaita teachings - the assumption that all have equal conscious beingness (witness) available, and that there are no prerequisites like meditation necessary. It simply is not true. If it were true, the world would be a very different place.
I agree that consciousness varies from person to person. As you point out, I practiced for many years and enjoyed it immensely and derived great value. In regards to the masses, no doubt meditation would be a reliable tool for many, but there are clearly examples where other tools have been used with equal success. As you mention, each path is unique.
quote:
It is good that you have arrived at this understanding after years of practice. But it does not mean others can arrive there without their years of practice.
I agree that practices can be highly effective at helping people to see through their illusions. Are you getting the impression that I am saying otherwise? It would be a funny assertion from someone who practiced as much as I have. The original questions above are simply rough examples of limiting beliefs that I have observed as being prevalent in many spiritual circles and can create a great amount of confusion and suffering. In my own experience, some were certainly impediments and I am grateful to those who shared differing perspectives that enabled me to let go of fixed ideas and open my mind to other possibilities.
quote:
And even with this understanding, can we be sure we are are not using the logic of it to avoid the challenges of reaching a deeper understanding and integration?
Personally, I don't see value in avoiding life's challenges, the learning in these situations can be immense. Any avoiding would lead to attracting these challenges with greater intensity anyway, so there really is no avoiding possible in the end. The flow of life is the primary teacher for greater understanding, all I have to do is listen and observe. To me, this is part of the essence of what I am and happens automatically as I live the path set out in front of me. I would imagine that others would have to find what works for them.
quote:
With a stable daily practice, we are not left with such an uncertainty.
In some cases, a stable consistent practice loses its effectiveness and can be the very impediment to greater seeing and understanding. I am living proof of that. Practices had to moved from fixed initially and had to become flexible and interchangeable as each situation presented. Eventually all practices had to be surrendered, it was the only way forward. Continuous surrender in every moment, which at first is a practice, but eventually understood to be the absence of resistance. Resistance is released with the seeing of it which is all that is eventually required. I don't advocate a particular path for anyone, though I have no doubt consistent practice would be highly beneficial for many if they wanted to see through life's illusions as efficiently as possible.
quote:
If accepting life as it is has, by necessity, become your stable daily practice, and you know with certainty that this is all there is for you to do, then this is very good. But this will not be a useful approach for everyone.
I agree, each ultimately has to go forward with what works for them. I don't advocate a particular path for anyone, each person is ultimately responsible to find what works for them. I think you have done a great service by introducing the AYP practices and emphasis on consistency and self-pacing to so many, I think they are very effective tools for each to use as they require.
quote:
There is a lot of history of seeking and practices that brought you to this point, and that history was certainly not a waste of your time and energy. Nor are seeking and practices a waste of time and energy for anyone else. All things in their own time...
Would never suggest it was a waste of time. Neither is sharing a differing perspective like you have through AYP, if not now, but maybe at some point in the future, someone may find value.
Best wishes,
A |
Edited by - Anthem on Mar 18 2014 3:08:39 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2014 : 5:36:44 PM
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^^^^ very well said.
Wish we had a like button. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2014 : 8:57:41 PM
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| <----Like button |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2014 : 9:35:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
<----Like button
Excellent point. |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2014 : 2:59:03 PM
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Hi Anthem:
Sorry for the delay coming back. Have been "awakened" with a lot of additional administration lately. 
Yes, nothing wrong with speaking from where we are. But we should keep in mind that suggesting attitudinal knowledge is a two edged sword. My point was to caution that "viewing daily life experiences as the primary path" will work for some and not for others, depending on the degree of pre-existing inner silence/awareness. It is not good advice for beginners especially, most who will do much better in the long run by developing a reliable daily meditation practice.
There is the age-old presumption that knowledge is for "those with eyes to see and ears to hear," which is pre-existing awareness/silent witness. Nothing wrong with that either. Of all the seeds thrown, a few will sprout, and most will not. So we throw out as many seeds of knowledge as we can and hope for the best.
But the real question is, how do we improve the seeing? the hearing? the sprouting? That is the primary concern in AYP, and why I often challenge advice that says, "Consider the path being to look at it this way," which is really only for the few who already have the eyes to see and ears to hear.
The way we improve our seeing and hearing is not by developing an attitude, but by working systematically to expand our underlying awareness. For this, something more than an attitude is required. Sure, our attitude can change and even satisfyingly take root in whatever stillness we have, but cultivating basic seeing and hearing beyond that is far more fundamental.
Therefore, I am against encouraging all to engage in passive non-seeking, without qualifying it. For many, seeking will be the essence of their journey for years to come, and this is a good thing. If no seeking means no suffering (a good sales pitch), it can also mean little awakening beyond present awareness, and present suffering (the result of non-relational inquiry).
So...
"Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled." ...and... "Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will open."
Even "non-seeking" requires that. The art of doing nothing is a something, and that something is bhakti (spiritual desire). What happens as a result of bhakti is practice and divine flow. Then we will find ourselves in a position to experience and suggest attitudinal changes, as you have. But let us not forget where we have come from, because it is important for those we are advising to know, so they will not be fooled into thinking that developing an attitude in the mind is a shortcut to enlightenment/liberation/happiness/non-suffering (or whatever). Not so.
Regarding the "spiritual myths," neti neti (not this, not this) only works when what is beyond "this and this" (and the mind) is clear abiding awareness/witness. Until then, the myths are rungs on the ladder of increasing wisdom.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2014 : 3:26:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Therefore, I am against encouraging all to engage in passive non-seeking, without qualifying it. For many, seeking will be the essence of their journey for years to come, and this is a good thing. If no seeking means no suffering (a good sales pitch), it can also mean little awakening beyond present awareness, and present suffering (the result of non-relational inquiry).
Totally agreed.
If you seek, you'll do a sadhana, and results will come (depending on the sadhana you choose).
No seeking=>no sadhana=> no experimenting the truth (in most cases)
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2014 : 9:37:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Anthem,
I guess I would slightly disagree with you. I don't see heightened awareness as "anger" while someone one cuts in to your lane, that is just paying greater attention. Anger would be more like road rage where you become more distracted wanting to "get even". If it is true anger (not pretending), then it is always about you and not the other person. Anger can be good at highlighting our own issues, but projecting it on others is rarely helpful.
Hi Jeff,
We can certainly have different points of view, just my 2 cents worth. Just to clarify one thing though, I am not talking about anger to the extent and duration of road rage. Also, anger may not be the emotion that presents in the situation, but some other. It can be a subtle emotional energy impulse which simply serves to bring the attention firmly into the here and now. It comes, it leaves, and the result is being more alert and having the attention present.
As mentioned, the emotional energy that arises serves to bring the attention to the situation at hand and is critical to illuminate our preferences in the moment. How else would we know to move on from a person deliberately trying to monopolize our time, or know to prevent a child from running into the street, or be sensitive to another person's needs etc. What prompts a person to respond to a post they don't agree with? It is very subtle, but there is an emotional impetus at the root. I see life as being about balance in some ways and that emotional energy helps us maintain our balance and respond in a natural way that helps others maintain their balance as well. It is just life free flowing and bouncing off itself as it does. A person can be yelling at you and be very emotional and a calm mute reaction could be the last thing they need to regain their equilibrium or the very thing, it all depends and when our responses are natural, it is usually the very thing that is needed. I am open to responding in any way required.
All emotions that arise are equal in value from my perspective and none better/ or more sinister than others. I see having all emotions functioning naturally as vital to navigating the world with our full potential and keeping our attention more firmly rooted in the here and now. Again small distinction, but just my 2 cents.
quote:
On my response to point 10, it ties into above regarding the difference between emotional responses and being in the moment (like fully aware when driving). If one is "feeling stuff" like emotions or bliss, they are not naturally driving the car, they are subconsciously thinking about that asshole jerk who cut them off on the road.
Regards,
Jeff
Thanks for clarifying, I am not talking about emotions like you describe here but momentary impulses with much less intensity. Thinking the person is an asshole suggests historical thinking that is referencing previously conceived definitions for beliefs etc. I am talking about responding naturally in the moment without historical context. The emotional impulses come, they go and I agree if they are long and drawn out and if we are thinking about them, we are not present in the moment externally but lost in meanings, labels and history. These emotional impulses arise for the situation at hand without any baggage. They arise to provide the necessary "jolt" to be more fully engaged and depart in a nano second, leaving us free respond as the situation requires. Hope this clarifies.
All the best!
A
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2014 : 08:05:09 AM
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Hi Anthem,
Thanks for the discussion (and the slight disagreement ). The question with things like conscious anger (even for a nanosecond) is that it is often just the tip of the proverbial subconscious iceberg. Many are very good at suppressing things like anger, but that does not mean that it has been released and let go. Rather than just react and engage in things like anger, I prefer to use it as a tool to point the way to the underlying subconscious fears and issues. As we release the energy trapped in those obstructions, one finds that jolt you describe to be a constant aspect of our natural state.
Best wishes. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2014 : 08:32:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Yes, nothing wrong with speaking from where we are. But we should keep in mind that suggesting attitudinal knowledge is a two edged sword. My point was to caution that "viewing daily life experiences as the primary path" will work for some and not for others, depending on the degree of pre-existing inner silence/awareness. It is not good advice for beginners especially, most who will do much better in the long run by developing a reliable daily meditation practice.
There is the age-old presumption that knowledge is for "those with eyes to see and ears to hear," which is pre-existing awareness/silent witness. Nothing wrong with that either. Of all the seeds thrown, a few will sprout, and most will not. So we throw out as many seeds of knowledge as we can and hope for the best.
But the real question is, how do we improve the seeing? the hearing? the sprouting? That is the primary concern in AYP, and why I often challenge advice that says, "Consider the path being to look at it this way," which is really only for the few who already have the eyes to see and ears to hear.
The way we improve our seeing and hearing is not by developing an attitude, but by working systematically to expand our underlying awareness. For this, something more than an attitude is required. Sure, our attitude can change and even satisfyingly take root in whatever stillness we have, but cultivating basic seeing and hearing beyond that is far more fundamental.
Therefore, I am against encouraging all to engage in passive non-seeking, without qualifying it. For many, seeking will be the essence of their journey for years to come, and this is a good thing. If no seeking means no suffering (a good sales pitch), it can also mean little awakening beyond present awareness, and present suffering (the result of non-relational inquiry).
So...
"Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled." ...and... "Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will open."
Even "non-seeking" requires that. The art of doing nothing is a something, and that something is bhakti (spiritual desire). What happens as a result of bhakti is practice and divine flow. Then we will find ourselves in a position to experience and suggest attitudinal changes, as you have. But let us not forget where we have come from, because it is important for those we are advising to know, so they will not be fooled into thinking that developing an attitude in the mind is a shortcut to enlightenment/liberation/happiness/non-suffering (or whatever). Not so.
Regarding the "spiritual myths," neti neti (not this, not this) only works when what is beyond "this and this" (and the mind) is clear abiding awareness/witness. Until then, the myths are rungs on the ladder of increasing wisdom.
Such perfect clarity and wisdom. Thank you Yogani. Wish many modern teachers that advocate doing nothing could read this, perhaps on a daily basis!
This could be made the description for the Jnana Yoga forum; only because you don't seem to have much admin stuff going on these days.
Gratitude. 
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2014 : 10:33:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Anthem:
Sorry for the delay coming back. Have been "awakened" with a lot of additional administration lately.
Yes, nothing wrong with speaking from where we are. But we should keep in mind that suggesting attitudinal knowledge is a two edged sword. My point was to caution that "viewing daily life experiences as the primary path" will work for some and not for others, depending on the degree of pre-existing inner silence/awareness. It is not good advice for beginners especially, most who will do much better in the long run by developing a reliable daily meditation practice.
Hi Yogani,
Sorry, I am equally slow, just getting back as I can fit it in.
You use the term "attitudinal knowledge" which I am taking to mean, encouraging others to take on an attitude or a new fixed belief that they can apply to their lives. I would see this as counter-productive as well. You'll have to point out where you think you are seeing this in my posts? It is the absence of fixed beliefs and attitudes that releases us from our limiting mental constructs.
This is what is intended in a discussion: If someone says, "that dog is always angry". If I don't necessarily believe this and communicate that in my experience the dog is sometimes pleasant as well, it gives a person’s mind the potential to see different possibilities in the situation (or not). People aren't necessarily going to jump over and say yes, I now see it as you do, the dog is always pleasant and apply this to every interaction with the dog even as it continues to bite them. They have seen/ experienced the dog as angry already, this is real, they may now look for evidence of this assertion that the dog is also pleasant. Or not. They may decide to hold firm to their original idea or something in between. It is an invitation, nothing more, not a new way that should be adopted. If it enables people to see infinite possibilities in every instance then great, if not, nothing lost. As you point out below, potentially another rung on the ladder of wisdom.
I am pretty disciplined about being clear that something is only my opinion/ perspective etc. and not the way things are or that another should see it the way I do. This would all be counter productive in my opinion and a disservice to others.
From where I sit, our daily life is the primary path whether we like it or not. Making a practice of that is something else entirely and as you point out, not for everyone. Also, just to reiterate my previous post, I don't endorse a particular path for anyone, each path is unique and people can use whatever tools they need for as long as they need them.
quote:
The way we improve our seeing and hearing is not by developing an attitude, but by working systematically to expand our underlying awareness. For this, something more than an attitude is required. Sure, our attitude can change and even satisfyingly take root in whatever stillness we have, but cultivating basic seeing and hearing beyond that is far more fundamental.
Yes, it isn't about taking on any attitudes but letting go of all attitudes, fixed or limiting beliefs (seeing things only one way). It is the absence of all this that allows for seeing things as they are.
quote:
Therefore, I am against encouraging all to engage in passive non-seeking, without qualifying it. For many, seeking will be the essence of their journey for years to come, and this is a good thing. If no seeking means no suffering (a good sales pitch), it can also mean little awakening beyond present awareness, and present suffering (the result of non-relational inquiry).
You will have to point out where you believe you are seeing some encouraging for all to take on some passive non-seeking somewhere in this thread? Or are you just stating your position in general on this?
If you re-read the above post, you will find that I see seeking externally as leading to suffering. I point out in the same paragraph that the seeking would be better served if directed internally, (into our hearts) so that we can see. Whether seeking externally is necessary at some point on the path, I have no idea. Personally, I see nothing but eventual dead ends from searching outside of ourselves but perhaps it is the pain of this that eventually drives our desire internally.
quote:
Even "non-seeking" requires that. The art of doing nothing is a something, and that something is bhakti (spiritual desire). What happens as a result of bhakti is practice and divine flow. Then we will find ourselves in a position to experience and suggest attitudinal changes, as you have. But let us not forget where we have come from, because it is important for those we are advising to know, so they will not be fooled into thinking that developing an attitude in the mind is a shortcut to enlightenment/liberation/happiness/non-suffering (or whatever). Not so.
Yes there aren’t any short cuts to being free from beliefs that I have found at least. I wouldn’t personally promise any more or less than that, which I would say those other words would imply. Another way it can be said: an ongoing process of recognizing the infinite in every moment and continuously letting this go. I am always learning.
Best wishes,
A |
Edited by - Anthem on Mar 25 2014 10:19:31 AM |
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14 Spiritual Myths? For inquiry.
