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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 03:45:37 AM
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Hi everybody,
I have been doing DM twice a day for 5 months now. I started with the nominal 20' duration and got some good results such as less stress and more quietness during daily life. However, these positive outcomes came with an unpleasant feeling of having a kind of numb or half awake mind all day long. Another way to explain it would be to say that my mind feels slowed down, and I find it difficult to think deep and quick when my boss provides me with a problem to solve for instance.
I take care of taking at least 5' of rest after DM as adviced by Yogani. I have tried to self pace down to 15' then 10' of DM: the numbness reduced but the above mentioned positive results faded away too ! 
And after some months of practice, my mind is reaching this numbness state almost as from the begining of each DM session.
So at the moment I am triyng other meditation methods such as body scan (or sweeping) as taught by Barry Long for instance. But I am afraid of wasting my time trying alternative methods which might be way less effective than the Yogani's DM process, which sounds great when reading all these posts ! 
I searched thru the forum if somebody had the same numbness effect, but found nothing. Has anybody encountered the same ? |
Edited by - dofa66 on Mar 08 2014 03:50:32 AM |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 06:05:56 AM
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Maybe I should add the following information: when practicing DM, I feel something like a pressure pulsation in my head or brain, don't know how to explain it better ! 
When meditating thru body sweeping, I really feel my mind is going still and more quiet. But when meditating with the I AM mantra, my mind is not as quiet. The mantra repetition creates this pulsation feeling, usually synchronized with my breath or my heart beat, and I am afraid there is no chance my mind could go still and eventually stop in such a way. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4381 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 06:25:38 AM
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Hi Dofa,
It sounds like you have become over-sensitive to the mantra. You could have a look at this lesson:
Suggestions for over-sensitive meditators
You could try using breath based meditation as recommended in that lesson. I am not familiar with the body sweeping method of Barry Long, so I couldn't advise on that, but if it is working for you then that is great.
Another suggestion would be to try using the full mantra, which I believe is suggested in that lesson, if you are not doing that already.
Christi
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 07:22:52 AM
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Hi dofa66, I had a similar experience during the first 2-3 months of AYP. Things are different now, the "strange" feeling during daily activity is gone, and at the same time the sitting practice has become smooth. I don't know how bad your symptoms are, but if it's not very bad I think it could be useful to stay with the AYP practice for some more months, maybe things will become smoother as in my case.
Also, you mention that you synchronize the mantra and the breath and the heart beating. I also did that synchronization in the beginning but it was not a good idea - it made me nervous both during practice and daily life, with lot of energy going on. Afterwards I read in the lessons that one should not do synchronize the mantra with anything. Avoiding that synchronization jas been a huge step towards a smoother, more silence oriented practice. I don't know if this can be useful for you, it's just the way things went for me.
Wish you all the best. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 08:08:46 AM
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Thank you Christi and Ecdyonurus for your feedback.
As far as synchro with breath and heart beat is concerned, it should be noted that I do not do it intentionally: it comes naturally. I read a post or lesson from Yogani saying that indeed we should not seek such synchro, but should it arise by itself, we should let it arise: so this is exaclty what I do 
Now I did not have such symptoms in the first 2 months of practice, they came in later. So maybe Christi is right. I will have a (second) look to the over-sensitiveness lesson. Indeed I read it 2 or 3 months ago, and decided to reduce my practice time as indicated, with the result I mentioned upper in this post. So I will take time to read it again now. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 09:16:18 AM
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About synchronizing intentionally or not intentionally: in my case, I also felt that mantra, breath and heart did synchronize spontaneously. But one day I decided to really focus only on the mantra and intentionally avoid "monitoring" both the breath and the heart beat - and that simple decision made a huge difference. For that reason, I now believe that by observing the way the mantra, the breath and the heart were going, I was actually kind of linking them togheter, although my intention was not to synchronize them. I don't know if this theory is right, it's just what I experienced.  |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 09:33:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dofa66
As far as synchro with breath and heart beat is concerned, it should be noted that I do not do it intentionally: it comes naturally. I read a post or lesson from Yogani saying that indeed we should not seek such synchro, but should it arise by itself, we should let it arise: so this is exaclty what I do
This doesn't sound like the correct procedure. Would you be able to identify the post or lesson?
It is suggested to favor the mantra over the breath if they do synchronize, and to be consistent at this, since DM is not breath meditation. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 11:15:03 AM
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Hi AumNaturel,
The point was raised in the AYP Lesson #106. Here is the extracts I am refering to:
1- "it doesn't matter if the mantra is with the breath or not. We just let the breath go in meditation and don't mind what it is doing."
2- "If the mantra follows the breath, we don't favor or push the breath out."
So this is what I do: I just favor the mantra, but I don't try to push the breath or heart beat out.
In the same lesson, it is said that "In deep meditation when the mind comes to stillness, the breath and metabolism will automatically suspend." I must admit that this never happened to me once in 5 months of DM practice, while it happens easily when meditating over the body (body sweeping). Maybe I should stick with this method. However I feel like I miss something with DM.  |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 12:41:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dofa66
So this is what I do: I just favor the mantra, but I don't try to push the breath or heart beat out.
Yes, this distinction is clear enough here now. "We should let it arise" was incomplete without the specific part about favoring the mantra over the breath and pulse without actively minding or pushing the latter two away.
It sounded as though the synch if natural is okay, but it isn't as a point in practice, and there's a procedure, "favor the mantra...don't favor or push the breath out" for managing it over time. Ecdyonurus's experience is consistent with my own and my understanding of the lesson, so I think we're all on the same page with the added clarifications from L106.
Also, I do resonate with the opening topic, though don't have something more tangible to add as of yet as it is a complex matter because of so many variables interacting with the otherwise excellent methods of meditation. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 04:34:47 AM
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Hi again,
I have read all the lesson #367 about over-sensitivity (thank you Christi). In order to find out whether I am over-sensitive, I tried a DM session this morning (not done since more than a week). I was easily repeating and favoring the mantra, with no sync either with breath nor heart beat. It looked like a very nice session. However, somewhere between 5' and 10' I started to feel this pressure on the forefront, right in the thirdeye region. I remember now that this was the first symptom that appeared some months ago, eventually increasing up to an overall pressure pulse in the head, surrounding my brain.
Now in lesson #367 it is said that "Anything less than 10 minutes per sitting with ongoing discomfort can be assumed to be over-sensitive.". Well, if this pressure in the forefront (kind of tickle at this stage) is a discomfort then yes, I am over-sensitive ! 
The next sentence in the lesson is "Ironically, over-sensitive meditators often have very strong bhakti (spiritual desire), so it can be frustrating to have to scale back meditation time so much." Well, I fully concur to this too ! 
So maybe I should give a try to the third enhancement of the mantra as suggested. And if this does not fix the problem, I would certainly come back to the body sweeping meditation process, which does not have the drawback of breath meditation as pointed out by Yogani (problem of the breath suspension).
To you Christi who does not know the body sweeping (or scanning) process, it is very easy: you sit just as you use to, close your eyes, and then you drive all your attention to the feelings in your body. For instance you start by feeling your nose tip, then your lips, arms, legs, fingers, etc... You slowly sweep or scan every part of your body, including heart beat and breath sensations. You can even feel this life energy in your teeth ! I believe it drives my mind into stillness effectively. I will try the third mantra enhancement and compare. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 12:03:14 PM
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Now in lesson #367 it is said that "Anything less than 10 minutes per sitting with ongoing discomfort can be assumed to be over-sensitive.".
I wonder if Yogani means "discomfort during sitting practcie" or "discomfort during daily activity".  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 12:11:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
I wonder if Yogani means "discomfort during sitting practcie" or "discomfort during daily activity".
I would say he probably means both. At least that's how I regard my own self-pacing. Sensations in meditation naturally spill over into daily activity. If either is highly uncomfortable, I've had to back off.  |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 1:26:20 PM
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I fully agree with Bodhi Tree.
I just tried the enhanced mantra for my evening session: the result was good. Let's see in the long run. As Yogani says, many over-sensitive experienced discomfort again after two weeks of DM with the enhanced mantra. I will keep it posted. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4381 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 2:20:40 PM
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Hi Dofa,
Thanks for the update. The AYAM mantra is designed to activate the third eye (amongst other things), and it sounds like you are becoming, or have already become over-sensitive to it in that region. And yes, it starts out with a tickling sensation, or flashing lights which can then expand to pressure in the head or a migrane for over-sensitive people.
The full mantra will work in a much broader way which is why people find it easier if they are over-sensitive. But do keep an eye on things and let us know how it goes.
Regarding breath meditation, it usually takes years of practice before the breath will suspend for any serious length of time. So it is not really something to be concerned about at this stage.
Just one question: Does your body sweeping technique include the top of the head, or is that deliberately excluded?
Christi |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 4:51:53 PM
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| Ecdyonurus, I also share Bodhi Tree and dofa66's perspectives that the lessons specify it is how one feels in daily activity between practice that would inform self-pacing, though during sitting practice has a role as well since it is at one point mentioned that self-pacing can sometimes require 'real-time' adjustments on the go. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 03:18:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Just one question: Does your body sweeping technique include the top of the head, or is that deliberately excluded?
Hi Christi,
Every part of the body is included in the body sweeping technique. The aim is to scan every single part, however it is recommended not to insist should a part be difficult to feel, as it should come with time. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4381 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 08:01:05 AM
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Hi Dofa,
quote:
Hi Christi,
Every part of the body is included in the body sweeping technique. The aim is to scan every single part, however it is recommended not to insist should a part be difficult to feel, as it should come with time.
In that case I would be very careful. I have known people who have done the scanning process you describe and have ended up in a very bad way. The problem comes with the crown chakra as it can be activated prematurely simply by bringing the attention to the top of the head during the scanning process.
It could be better to stick with DM using the full mantra or with breathing meditation if DM is too much. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 7:53:35 PM
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OK, thanks Christi for the advice. However, when proceeding with the body sweeping technique, I must say I did not spend too much time at all on the top of my head !
But I will stick with the longer mantra for the moment anyway. The first feelings for the moment are better than with I AM only: the tikcling/pressure on the forefront has been replaced with a very light pressure sensation as a circle around my brain. I guess you will warn me about the crown chakra here too... ? I promise I will monitor this carefully and adapt accordingly. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4381 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 8:56:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dofa66
OK, thanks Christi for the advice. However, when proceeding with the body sweeping technique, I must say I did not spend too much time at all on the top of my head !
But I will stick with the longer mantra for the moment anyway. The first feelings for the moment are better than with I AM only: the tikcling/pressure on the forefront has been replaced with a very light pressure sensation as a circle around my brain. I guess you will warn me about the crown chakra here too... ? I promise I will monitor this carefully and adapt accordingly.
Am I really that predictable?
Yes, you still need to keep a close watch on things with the full mantra as it includes the "shree" sound (sometimes written as "sri"). It is a mantra designed to activate the crown chakra. Watch how things progress and switch to a more gentle form of meditation if necessary.
Christi |
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pkj
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 11:43:51 AM
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One thing mentioned in lesson 367 is the breath meditation. As in my case also mantra usually overloads me (both short and long one). Just a little attention on breath for starting about 10 minutes works well. it may be starting about 5 minutes as well incase it still overloads.
PKJ |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 7:32:24 PM
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| Thank you PKJ. This was already pointed out by Christi in his first answer upper in this thread. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2014 : 05:38:17 AM
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Hi everybody,
I come back with a feedback as promised. I have been practicing the enhanced mantrat 20' twice a day since 10 days now. The positive side is that I no longer feel the physical discomfort I used to feel during and after DM with AYAM only. Now the negative side is that I no longer feel any positive outcome from my DM sessions during my daily life, and moreover, I am more and more irritable these 2 last days (despite a 10' rest after each DM session).
So definitely I think I am over-sensitive to mantra meditation. I may try to reduce DM time down to 15' or 10' and see what happens, but I am afraid I need to switch to either breath meditation as suggested in lesson 367, or to body sweeping / scanning whatever feels better to me. I am still seeking for somebody able to share some comparative experience with both breath and body scan meditations... |
Edited by - dofa66 on Mar 19 2014 06:06:40 AM |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2014 : 1:29:21 PM
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Hi dofa,have you tried DM with grounding?
A grounding exercise like running (even with 5 or 10 min you may feel the difference) may help your mind stay sharp at work. Brain trainer games may also help you. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2014 : 1:45:58 PM
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Hi Will Power,
I don't know what you mean by "DM with grounding"... I use to run at least 30 min 3 times a week. Do you mean doing DM and running at the same time ?? |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2014 : 3:21:34 PM
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Sorry I didn't express myself clearly. I meant practising grounding activities during the day, out of the sitting routine (not at the same time as DM).
I said it because with grounding activities you may not need to change DM to other meditation techniques, but in your case I see that you already run frequently. |
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Horst
Austria
30 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2014 : 3:32:56 PM
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Hello Dofa and everybody,
I am experiencing exactly the same symptoms like Dofa. My mind is completely numb and my mantra is involountary synchronized with my breath too. After reading this thread last night, I changed to breath meditation as suggested by Yogani and I am already feeling better today.
I know that I am a highly sensitive person as termed by E. Aron. I started DM a few weeks ago and made tremendous progress in stilling the mind. I also did spinal breathing which I am leaving out completely at the moment. My timing is down to merely 5 minutes twice daily. But it's most important that I get my mind back to normal so that I can function in this world.
I'll keep you posted how I'm getting on. Thanks for sharing your experiences and advice.
Horst |
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Topic |
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Help ! Numb mind due to DM ?
