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PersonX
India
17 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 06 2014 : 2:54:34 PM
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So, I've decided to start working out to provide extra support for respiration [strong abdominal core muscles help to breathe MUCH MUCH better than we usually do].
The practice I've chosen is Bicycle Crunches [most efficient for abdominal workout].
You can learn about it here : http://www.wikihow.com/Do-Bicycle-Crunches
Why I've decided this is, since I've started performing the three major bandhas and sit down for meditation, I've noticed the development of the abdominal muscles [It was easy to notice since my body is a little skinny. (Though not TOO skinny for an 18 Y/o.)].
So I figured since the very practice of sitting in meditation with the bandhas is developing the muscles, it would be great to give it some extra help. Which is when I read stronger abdominal muscles help in better breathing. All the more reasons to do this. Also, I always had this idea of athletes with strong bodies being able to meditate better. [Can't explain how I got the idea. These things just drop in my mind every now and then. :P] So, for the time being, I'll be concentrating more on body development and then come back to meditation.
So, my question is, with stronger abdominal muscles, we'll still be able to perform Uddiyana Bandha, right? :P |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1537 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2014 : 05:28:28 AM
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Dear PersonX,
The bandhas are meant to be very subtle, a mere intention with little or no physical show of it. So working out to be better able to do the bandhas is not necessary. Now working out because you are eighteen and want to have a hot body - Yeah! Go for it. 
Sey |
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PersonX
India
17 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2014 : 08:12:37 AM
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Hehe! :D Thank you Sey! :) Though my workout isn't so much for a hot body as it is for stronger muscles but since both go hand in hand, I don't mind. :3 Again, thank you! :)
- Px |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2014 : 11:00:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by PersonX
Hehe! :D Thank you Sey! :) Though my workout isn't so much for a hot body as it is for stronger muscles but since both go hand in hand, I don't mind. :3 Again, thank you! :)
- Px
Sey, I hate to disagree with you but I'll do so here 
The three bandhas are physical movements AND energetic movements. Sitting for practices in the ideal position requires precise alignment, strength and flexibility.
Now just like with any asana, we may aspire to the ideal but its unlikely we will get there. There's no requirement for a 'hot body' for sitting practices, but believe me it enhances the flow of prana tremendously.
Here's a cliffs notes:
Sacrum moving in toward the midline and pressing down, producing a natural curve in the lower spine.
The tip of the tailbone moving forward.
The pubic bones moving backward to meet the tailbone.
A lifting (flying up) in the deep core muscles from the pubic bones to the navel.
A slight tuck of the chin.
These are very simplified instructions and we could have a six hour workshop just on these bandhas. But you get the idea.
For muscle development for uddiyana bandha, concentrate on developing the deep core muscles rather than the rectus abdominus.. The six pack muscle.
The bandhas will reveal themselves in time. Don't force them. Gently engage them during breathing practices and you'll develop the fine motor control in these areas over time. |
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PersonX
India
17 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2014 : 2:07:24 PM
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tonightsthenight, thank you so much for all the details [I'll definitely try to put them to use] and yes, even I STRONGLY feel that a strong body allows much better flow of prana.
I think I've found something which is why I can link stronger muscles with better flow of prana. Usually when our Sympathetic Nervous System is on, our breaths are not really in a flow. We don't inhale in one go. There are short gaps between the air we are inhaling. I mean, the air does not flow inside in one go when we inhale. Its in short bits. Which is also part of the reason why our heart beats are not slow in the SNS mode as the Vagus Nerve endings that we stimulate by breathing are being stimulated at short intervals unlike while breathing deeply [turning on the PNS]. I'll write more about this if anyone wants me to.
These gaps in our inhalation cycle are partially due to weak core abdominal muscles [that help in breathing].
And yes tonightsthenight, I've chosen Bicycle Crunches specifically because they concentrate more on development of deep core muscles [transversus abdominis and others]. :)
Thank you so much for your reply. :D
- Px |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2014 : 5:57:25 PM
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Hi personx,
I'd like to hear more on your understanding of the PNS and SNS roles' in respiration.
Bicycle crunches are great. Planks are good too. Just engage the core in everything you do. Even walking is a fantastic exercise in gaining core strength. To truly move (both physically and energetically) from our center of gravity requires tremendous strength of mind and body. |
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GregM
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2014 : 6:27:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
To truly move (both physically and energetically) from our center of gravity requires tremendous strength of mind and body.
Tonights...
What you said there sounds interesting, but I don't fully comprehend it. Would you mind expanding upon what you meant?
Grazi mille,
Greg |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 07:45:51 AM
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| Although I learned bandhas and pranayama in a tradition which is "body oriented", I have never been told that a very muscular body is needed for yoga purposes. One certainly needs muscles in yoga, but building six pack abdominal muscles is not something I would consider a yogic thing. Is it not true that a regular asana practice builds up the muscles one needs for other practices like bandhas and pranayama and sitting in meditation? Of course, one can add some workout for more muscles (I also do, as well as some jogging), but I would not consider this a must. IMO, of course. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 10:21:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
Although I learned bandhas and pranayama in a tradition which is "body oriented", I have never been told that a very muscular body is needed for yoga purposes. One certainly needs muscles in yoga, but building six pack abdominal muscles is not something I would consider a yogic thing. Is it not true that a regular asana practice builds up the muscles one needs for other practices like bandhas and pranayama and sitting in meditation? Of course, one can add some workout for more muscles (I also do, as well as some jogging), but I would not consider this a must. IMO, of course.
As I said, its the deep abdominals, and not the six pack, that one should work with.
I can only speak from my personal experience. A muscular body is not a requirement, as mentioned above. Yet there is a benefit to a strong and flexible body in the inner practices.
Modern postural yoga is an important part of the path for some. Asanas enhance the body and mind. They refine and purify Vasanas.
Asanas may be enough on their own without crunches and the like. But my experience tells me that the majority of practitioners do not perform the exercises in a way that will build the appropriate strength. So sometimes other approaches are helpful.
I think you got the wrong idea from my post
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 10:24:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by GregM
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
To truly move (both physically and energetically) from our center of gravity requires tremendous strength of mind and body.
Tonights...
What you said there sounds interesting, but I don't fully comprehend it. Would you mind expanding upon what you meant?
Grazi mille,
Greg
Greg I'd be happy too but that may require more time than I have at the moment. I'll have to get back to you on that.. |
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JonnyQuest
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 08:56:25 AM
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 Good Question Greg ! I can't fathom it either. Please do reply when you can TTN Don't say you are at a loss for words ! ? 
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
To truly move (both physically and energetically) from our center of gravity requires tremendous strength of mind and body.
Tonights...
What you said there sounds interesting, but I don't fully comprehend it. Would you mind expanding upon what you meant?
Grazi mille,
Greg
[/quote]
TTN: "Greg I'd be happy too but that may require more time than I have at the moment. I'll have to get back to you on that.."
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Edited by - JonnyQuest on Mar 09 2014 09:09:25 AM |
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PersonX
India
17 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 9:06:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Hi personx,
I'd like to hear more on your understanding of the PNS and SNS roles' in respiration.
Bicycle crunches are great. Planks are good too. Just engage the core in everything you do. Even walking is a fantastic exercise in gaining core strength. To truly move (both physically and energetically) from our center of gravity requires tremendous strength of mind and body.
Okay then! :D
See, the ultimate goal of yoga in my understanding is Sat-Chit-Ananda which means 'Being, Consciousness, Bliss'. This summarizes the final level of purification while the soul is still in the body and everyone simply HAS to agree that this is THE best explanation of that state.
Now, energy wise, there's LOTS and LOTS going on while purification takes place. What I'm trying to explain here is the 'PHYSICAL' part of the purification process.
Firstly, we have to understand that 'meditation' is not something we can 'do'. Its a property, a state you can say that blossoms when we prepare the body for it, meditativeness.
There are only TWO condition which once met, meditation begins on its own : A still body [zero movement; almost; level of movements ~ depth of meditation] and a still mind [zero thoughts].
Now lets take a look at the two autonomous nervous systems in the human body that help the body in different situations by acting accordingly. The one related to being under stress, super excited, giving you a racing heart, shallow breaths, its called the 'Sympathetic Nervous System' [SNS] and the one related with being calm, deep breaths, slow heart rate, euphoria even, that's the 'Para-Sympathetic Nervous System' [PNS].
Stimulating the SNS produces stress supporting neurotransmitters and stuff like cortisol. Stimulating the PNS produces neurotransmitters like endorphins, oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine which help relieve stress and feel blissful. :)
The doctors and scientists say that these both are supposed to be complementary. Like, when you're in a dangerous situation like being chased by some wild animal in the forest, the SNS is activated which allows you to run fast, think fast, act fast and when that situation is over, the PNS circuitry was 'supposed' to take over switching off the SNS, calming you and making you feel better again.
Now this was how it was 'supposed' to be. [That's what they believe. Not the yogic science.]
Note: The PNS was supposed to be the primary circuitry used by the body and SNS the secondary one i.e. the SNS was supposed to be turned on only in an on-demand basis otherwise the body should be working in PNS mode.
Its well known that the human body works MOST efficiently when its happy, calm i.e working in the PNS mode. [You're working in the PNS mode on days you're happy. That's why time flies on days we're happy and it seems to be too slow on days we're sad. :)]
Yogic science is all about cultivating an inner piece within you that NO external stimulus can disturb. [This in the physical sense simply means making the PNS the primary system and working on it to make it the permanent system. This state of being in the PNS mode is precisely what being 'meditative' means. :)]
Once we're able to achieve that permanent state of being in the PNS mode, we can summarize that experience as 'Sat-Chit-Ananda'. :)
Today's lifestyle offers comfort but still people are not 'happy'. This is because in today's lifestyle, there are SO MANY SNS triggers present around us [take traffic for example; anything that promotes stress] that we are constantly using the SNS and not being able to use the PNS properly. This has resulted in SNS becoming the primary system and PNS the secondary.
Almost every other person who tries 'meditating' does it once or twice and leaves it saying 'This doesn't work. It just wasting time.'. Well, everyone who feels so after their first few attempts at 'meditating' is because they are trying to do something that's impossible. [Though even those few tries are helpful for them. Even sitting in meditation for a few minutes everyday is helpful. It helps regain control over the PNS slowly.]
Now, the reason most people can't seem to quiet their mind and sit for meditation at first few tries is because they are trying to do it while they are still in the wrong mode of the nervous system! They feel 'restless' because their SNS is activated, acting as the primary system which does not allow them to sit still and quiet for long.
These sessions of 'meditation' they are having are just the beginning steps towards activating their PNS and once their PNS is activated, meditation occurs. This is where kriyas, mudras and bandhas come into play. The yogis had GREAT knowledge of the human body and they created this system of 'Yoga' of doing things the right way that act as triggers of the PNS. [They had great knowledge because they paid attention to the body. The simplest way to learn everything about anything is to observe. Well, they observed the human body in meditation. :) Once you understand something, you can control it. :)]
Certain breathing patterns, certain body locks, certain postures ~ all aimed at activating the PNS, slowly making it the primary system.
That's why when you firstly would have tried the body locks, you could only hold them for a few minutes or so. Because the body was still working in SNS mode and you were forcing it to work in the PNS mode. Slowly and gradually as you hold the locks and mudras for longer duration, PNS starts becoming the primary system, hence you're able to hold the locks for much longer duration later. Its a self helping process! :D
This is why even two minutes of sitting in a simple asana regularly can also be VERY beneficial in the long run.
So, about your question : When the SNS is activated, we breathe irregularly, with gaps in our inhaled air [thus not stimulating the Vagus Nerve endings properly (stimulating them turns on the PNS)] and our heart rate is irregular and fast. Whereas while PNS is activated, we breathe deeply, regularly with no gaps in our inhaled air. :)
And now I'm realizing I wrote too much outside the scope of your question. Will post it anyway, maybe it will help someone understand what's happening in the body better. :D
- Px |
Edited by - PersonX on Mar 09 2014 10:17:59 PM |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 10:29:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JonnyQuest
Good Question Greg ! I can't fathom it either. Please do reply when you can TTN Don't say you are at a loss for words ! ?
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
To truly move (both physically and energetically) from our center of gravity requires tremendous strength of mind and body.
Tonights...
What you said there sounds interesting, but I don't fully comprehend it. Would you mind expanding upon what you meant?
Grazi mille,
Greg
TTN: "Greg I'd be happy too but that may require more time than I have at the moment. I'll have to get back to you on that.."
[/quote]
Physically moving and energetically moving are the same thing, there is no clear boundary between the two. Muscle power is a form of prana.
If we are moving from an ideal center of gravity without resistance than we are moving gracefully, and also efficiently. Like water running downhill, our movements would be efficient if it weren't for samskara.
We will never achieve perfection in movement, but the practice of asana allows us to work through accumulated vasanas so that we can get closer to the goal. We're working on our bodies and our minds simultaneously.
If we have many blockages, accumulated patterns of resistance, that changes the location of our center of gravity. Misalignments, assymetries, dysfunctions. Its inneficient, maybe clunky. Our muscles and other tissues are not flowing efficiently, and neither is the prana of the central axis, or the vayus.
So if our center of gravity is in an ideal place (standing position in this example), we are moving from the area of uddiyana bandha. That's where all this power is generated. These core muscles are small, but they are powerful. We gain a lightness of being.
But it requires more muscular strength in these muscles then many of us are accustomed to having .. And an uncommon strength of mind as well. It is the purification process which produces this strength.
Disclaimer: these are general notes, and there is much more for me to understand here. But i wanted to expand on my statement above. I'm not advocating that a 'perfect' body is somehow equated with enlightenment, merely that there is a strong relationship between the strength, flexibility and symmytry of the body and the flow of prana, and furthermore, that we want the prana to move efficiently from our center of gravity. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1537 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 02:26:41 AM
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Well, I am certainly not strong... Flexible yeah.. and I've got this little buddha belly, but but... all the mudras and bandhas are micro-movements for me which happen automatically.
But I will go to work on my six pack - my son would love that . He keeps calling my buddha belly "my obstacle"
What Yogani says in the Uddiyana instructions
Of course, none of this starts out as "micro-movements." We have to begin with "macro-movements," which is what the mudras and bandhas are when we first learn them. If we are learning to play the violin, we have to master the long simple monotone strokes before we can indulge in the short complex multitone ones. Like that, the mudras and bandhas usually begin as pronounced and visible, and then naturally refine over time to be subtle invisible automatic manipulations deep within our increasingly ecstatic nervous system. Then, it is the movement of ecstatic kundalini energy in our nervous system that performs the micro-movements all over our body, and we become a witness to an unending glorious display of luminous neuro-biology going on inside us.
@PersonX - Note that you are mixing Kriya instructions with AYP instructions. In SBP you are to breathe in, in one go.
Sey
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 10:47:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Well, I am certainly not strong... Flexible yeah.. and I've got this little buddha belly, but but... all the mudras and bandhas are micro-movements for me which happen automatically.
But I will go to work on my six pack - my son would love that . He keeps calling my buddha belly "my obstacle"
What Yogani says in the Uddiyana instructions
Of course, none of this starts out as "micro-movements." We have to begin with "macro-movements," which is what the mudras and bandhas are when we first learn them. If we are learning to play the violin, we have to master the long simple monotone strokes before we can indulge in the short complex multitone ones. Like that, the mudras and bandhas usually begin as pronounced and visible, and then naturally refine over time to be subtle invisible automatic manipulations deep within our increasingly ecstatic nervous system. Then, it is the movement of ecstatic kundalini energy in our nervous system that performs the micro-movements all over our body, and we become a witness to an unending glorious display of luminous neuro-biology going on inside us.
@PersonX - Note that you are mixing Kriya instructions with AYP instructions. In SBP you are to breathe in, in one go.
Sey
Budda belly haha, nothing wrong with that.
I must have worded a sentence about six packs incorrectly, because everyone is inferring that I said six packs help practices.
In order to make these micro movements we need strong core muscles. Many people do not have conscious control over these muscles.
Yes, these movements are big at first, and become more subtle as muscle control is improved. And yes, the bandhas have an energetic effect which is more important for our practice than the physical effect. But then again, there is no real bifurcation between the physical and energetic, its purely subjective and created by the mind.
The bandhas are very physical, we use them when we are walking, for example. They are not just for asana practice, they are not just for sitting practice, they are a part of neurobiology.. Which implies our neural boday and our physical body. Here's a simple test. Do jalandhara bandha. Is it physical or not?
Ps. What person x is saying is that in his opinion we cannot take continuous respiraration when the sympathetic nervous system is dominant, not that he is purposesfully inhaling in this way.
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 11:23:44 AM
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| It makes sense to think of bandhas as being more physical in the beginning, and that they become more subtle once physically mastered. The same applies to every yoga practice (take even simple asanas: we learn them as a physical process, but soon they become subtle). But the physical aspect does not disappear, it is just not so dominant because se don' need to think about every single movement anymore and are able to focus on more subtle aspects. |
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PersonX
India
17 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 1:59:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
...@PersonX - Note that you are mixing Kriya instructions with AYP instructions. In SBP you are to breathe in, in one go.
Sey
Sey,
tonightsthenight explained my point in his P.S. note correctly! :)
What I'm trying to say is, by regular and PROPER practice of asana, kriyas, mudras and literally anything and everything under the yogic science, one is able to make his Para-Sympathetic Nervous System more and more dominant than the Sympathetic Nervous System which gradually allows them to breathe more and more deeply with a proper flow without gaps.
One simply cannot do this [breathe efficiently] while the SNS is dominant because that's how the body works and this is the BIGGEST obstacle one has to face when one decides to enter the realms of yogic science. It was at least my biggest obstacle. :P
And I say 'PROPER practice' as in some asanas stimulate the SNS instead of the PNS so they are to be practiced in conjunction with their counterpart asana which will stimulate the PNS. :)
NOTE: Staying in the PNS mode triggers healing processes [proper mitosis because of proper breathing etc.] all over the body. There's info on that too. :)
- Px |
Edited by - PersonX on Mar 11 2014 2:08:28 PM |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 2:52:56 PM
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HinPersonX,
Both modes (SNS and PNS) are good because each one has its own purpose. Problems arise when imbalance occours. When one is on SNS all the time, stress related diseases soon appear. A dominant PNS may cause depression. The key is to develop the abity to switch from one mode to the other. Yoga has great tools for that, as you said about some asana which brings you toward SNS and others towards PNS. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 3:53:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
HinPersonX,
Both modes (SNS and PNS) are good because each one has its own purpose. Problems arise when imbalance occours. When one is on SNS all the time, stress related diseases soon appear. A dominant PNS may cause depression. The key is to develop the abity to switch from one mode to the other. Yoga has great tools for that, as you said about some asana which brings you toward SNS and others towards PNS.
Exactly. Without the SNS or PNS we would be incapacitated. The crux here is balance. And we tend to live in pingala far more than is healthy in the west.
Regarding the bandhas, again exactly right. They become almost imperceptible, physically. But they are there and require a stupefying amount of core strength relative to what the average westerner is accustomed to. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1537 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2014 : 07:13:54 AM
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TNT / PersonX - I get your point.
What I have realised though is that one must pay close attention to prana to apply the bandhas correctly. So this is what happens with me instinctively:
During SBP - Head is thrown back, I inhale, drawing prana upto the solar plexus, mulabandha kicks in. I am still inhaling past the solar plexus to the throat, uddiyana kicks in pushing prana upwards,head is straight. Inhaling past the throat - tongue rolls to soft pallet,creating a direct path for prana, head start to dip forward. Upon reaching third-eye, head is now in chin-lock, sambhavi is in place (remains in place all the time). During the small pause at the third-eye,I further tweak all the bandhas to 'top up' the upward surge of prana (sometimes I add Navi Kriya). Exhalation, the head comes up, bandhas are released one by one (except sambhavi), head is all the way back by the time I reach muladhara and ready to take the next in-breath.
I repeat - this is my take on what happens, not exact AYP instructions.
Sey
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2014 : 11:07:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
TNT / PersonX - I get your point.
What I have realised though is that one must pay close attention to prana to apply the bandhas correctly. So this is what happens with me instinctively:
During SBP - Head is thrown back, I inhale, drawing prana upto the solar plexus, mulabandha kicks in. I am still inhaling past the solar plexus to the throat, uddiyana kicks in pushing prana upwards,head is straight. Inhaling past the throat - tongue rolls to soft pallet,creating a direct path for prana, head start to dip forward. Upon reaching third-eye, head is now in chin-lock, sambhavi is in place (remains in place all the time). During the small pause at the third-eye,I further tweak all the bandhas to 'top up' the upward surge of prana (sometimes I add Navi Kriya). Exhalation, the head comes up, bandhas are released one by one (except sambhavi), head is all the way back by the time I reach muladhara and ready to take the next in-breath.
I repeat - this is my take on what happens, not exact AYP instructions.
Sey
Sey, that's great. Keep up what is working! Sbp is a practice that varies from school to school and Yogani gives frank, simp!e directions so that students may find their own way. After all, we all have a unique neurobiology, so we will have unique instincts with the bandhas and mudras. There is no right and wrong here, only a combination of wise teaching and instinctual automatic movement.
The bandhas and mudras do not only contribute to the flow of prana up sushumna but also to the prana vayus. You might eventually find that the mind rests upon the bouyant heart with tucked chin, with the focus of the eyes upward in sambahvi, and mula and uddiyana continuously engaged, recycling the prana, and that inhalations and exhalations become indistinguishable from one another as the lower back widens upon inhalation and the peak of the sternum rises on exhalation. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1537 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2014 : 05:10:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
...inhalations and exhalations become indistinguishable from one another as the lower back widens upon inhalation and the peak of the sternum rises on exhalation.
Interesting. Don't think I have experienced that one. Common is breath has stopped (or minimal) and prana is flowing up and down following awareness. |
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PersonX
India
17 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2014 : 3:06:24 PM
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Ecdyonurus / tonightsthenight :
Yes, now I understand that. :)
Its about balancing the two and once we're able to balance it, it feels wonderful to be in complete control. :)
And yes, everyday I'm feeling the bandhas becoming more and more subtle. These subtle bandhas are far more effortless yet much more powerful. :) [This is in conjunction with abdominal exercise at other times in the day.]
And SeySorciere,
Your instinctive yet systematic approach is making me want to experiment with it. I'll be trying this and post updates if it goes well.
Thank you for those details. :) |
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kensbikes100
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2014 : 08:01:11 AM
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While I'm only a beginner at AYP, I agree that asanas can increase one's strength. I'm in my fourth year of asana, having taken a local and popular Iyengar class all this time. Our teacher focuses on building flexibility and strength, within the context of the Eight Limbs. Every so often he makes comments that seem related to the concepts within AYP, but the class is focused on asanas in Iyengar's way.
My improved core strength is a resource for better breathing, as is the improved control over my body.
Ken |
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Abdominal Workout + Uddiyana Bandh
