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seek123
India
12 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 27 2013 : 05:51:00 AM
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 . This is highly debatable but I am keen to know. Can you help me find the right understanding ? Despite some well meaning advise that this experience is beyond description, pointless to talk about it, etc, I still want to understand. Please understand me  .
I have read at least 20 accounts, I consider genuine of people getting "Shunyata" realization or enlightenment as Gyan Yogis. All these realizations were described more or less identically - like, There is no self. Nothing exists, Nothing ever was, No witness, We do not exist, and such similar experience or description. Buddha too said the same thing about his own enlightenment, as also Raman Maharishi.
Two things intrigue me. I am curious - (1) Kundalini awakening and K-process is never a consideration. Enlightenment in fact do not even mention/consider/refer/ acknowledge Kundalini OR Realization happens suddenly and without involvement of Kundalini. (2) Such realization very rarely talks of Siddhis and never demonstrate any (egoless, desireless whatever reasons). Most of them categorically say that they have absolutely no siddhis at all. However, they also say, they have reached the final realization, the End Point.
On the other hand, the Siddha tradition (several accounts) presents a different experience, that of omnipresence in the form of light or awareness. Shivoham, Aham Brahmasmi and Tatwam Asi experiences clearly describe the experience as - I am the all pervading consciousness, I assume ever-changing forms at different levels like different lokas, physical plane, ever engaged in birth-death drama and so on. It is always about waves of consciousness, i.e I myself, encompassing the whole universe. Here (1) The realization process emphasises Kundalini and the there is well laid out process and (2) Siddhas also demonstrate siddhis emphatically and very often ascribing the power to themselves (we understand the unity and oneness).
Based on above, my questions are -
1) Are there 2 types of enlightenments - One Shunyata/Nothing exists and other Fullness/I am everywhere/ I am the universe ? Please do not give analogies that both are same - unless you cover both the Kundalini and Siddhi aspect. Kindly explain exactly "HOW" they are different/same in context of Kundalini and Siddhis.
2) Is one superior to the other meaning Fullness is a station on way to Shunyata with Shunyata being the highest? Vice versa?
3) Which is the real or final one ? |
Edited by - seek123 on Jun 27 2013 06:08:57 AM |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2013 : 09:30:28 AM
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Why so complicated? Simply remain in the present moment. With mindfulness all your questions will be answered. The answer cannot be apprehended by the mind. Only by being. Enlightenment is not something we understand, it is something we are.
This is my opinion
parvati |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2013 : 12:21:19 PM
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Hi Seek123,
Taking a shot at your questions...
1) The buddhist concept of Shunyata (or emptiness) is not really "nothingness". A better description is found in the Heart Sutra. It is the realization of...
Form = Void and Void = Form.
Some traditions would describe that there are two "levels" of realization. The first being "self-realization" or noticing clarity of mind and the second being full enlightenment (Buddhahood/Christ). Enlightenment requires "kundalini", noticing clarity of the mind does not.
2) It depends on how you deeply you define "fullness" and if you mean "nothingness" or "emptiness". A normal progression seems to be...
- I am nothing (experience void).
- I am everything (expansion - Kundalini stuff - understanding of "form").
- Realize emptiness - that void and form are really the same thing.
3) I am definitely not qualified...
Best wishes, Jeff |
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seek123
India
12 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2013 : 2:55:06 PM
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. Thanks for your response jeff. It certainly improves the understanding a little bit . . . but just a tiny bit. I'll need more .
Void (=form) with or without Kundalini ? Does Buddha ever mention Kundalini as compulsory?
What's the status of siddhis ? |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2013 : 3:14:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by seek123
. Thanks for your response jeff. It certainly improves the understanding a little bit . . . but just a tiny bit. I'll need more .
Void (=form) with or without Kundalini ? Does Buddha ever mention Kundalini as compulsory?
What's the status of siddhis ?
Hi Seek123,
No, I do not believe it is possible to realize "emptiness" without the energetic component. All perceived "form" is energy. What people call kundalini is really energy flowing on a subconscious (or higher self) level. In Buddhism, you quiet the mind first, and then bring in the energy practices. You can find the energy stuff in what is often called the "completion stage" practices (e.g. Tummo).
Siddhis come as a natural process of the realization of energy/form and void. It is really the removing of the obstructions that sort of "blind us" from the truth. Siddhis come to someone who has just cleared out all of the crap to deeper levels of consciousness, and with the clarity you get the "superpowers" for free. In AYP, Samyama sort of gives you a feel for it.
Regards, Jeff |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4382 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2013 : 3:56:09 PM
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Hi seek123,
Welcome to the forum.
You've got some very useful replies from others already. I just wanted to add that shunyata and fullness are the same thing. They are just two different ways of looking at the same process- as we awaken more and more we increasingly see that everything is empty and that everything is full. Everything is empty of form and of self (individual and limited), but it is full of spirit and of Self (boundless and eternal).
This may sound like a paradox to the mind, but that is only because it is a stage beyond what the mind is capable of grasping. So we cannot understand it but we can surrender into it. That is enlightenment in a nutshell. It is bliss and freedom and grace.
Meditation, pranayama and all of the yoga practices are designed to bring us to this realization and take us beyond what the mind can conceive of.
As for kundalini, it is not possible to prove to anyone that kundalini is a necessary part of the process of enlightenment. But it is possible to prove it to yourself. All you have to do is practice and at a certain stage kundalini will awaken. That is true for everyone, whatever path they are on and whether they talk about it later or not. Some teachers try to divert attention away from the process of awakening and purification, including the energetic aspect of it, in order to emphasise the later stages of the path. Other teachers and students take vows not to speak about spiritual experiences at all other than with their own teachers in private. This is true for all ordained Buddhist monks in the Theravadan tradition. So there are reasons why some people do not talk about kundalini, and they are valid reasons for them. But it does not change the reality of the experience and the process for them or for everyone else.
Christi |
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I am Confused - Which Realization is the REAL ONE?
