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apatride
New Caledonia
94 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 11 2013 : 8:47:11 PM
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| Thanks for your answer mr_anderson. I'm really looking forward to follow the 10-weeks TPP course and your answers are very encouraging. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2013 : 2:02:56 PM
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Anthem, good stuff, and very well-expressed.
It reminds me of my conviction that "neti-neti" is sorely misused in the west (and, who knows, maybe in the east, too). Recoiling from It All is no better than grasping for it (btw I do understand that true neti-neti isn't a recoil).
I think the best way is the one improvisational actors use: "Yes and..." The principle is that whatever happens in an improv, you never cut off/deny what's happening around you. You embrace it - you go with it - and you add something new. The credo is to say "Yes and...." to whatever comes up. Come what may!
There is a stage for "neti-neti", but for most people, "Yes and...." seems like a far more effective path to non-suffering.
You were taken (politely) to task for suggesting "embracing or welcoming all the thoughts and emotions that arise". But that was a matter of word choice, and I suspect this is what you're really saying. Rather than deny what's actually happening ("This shall not stand!"), you go with it. Perhaps you'll take action to try to change or even reverse it, but that happens within an acceptance that existence exists! :)
It's a subtle shift of perspective, and most people miss it because they don't realize they lack this essential bit of sanity.
Yeah, it's sublimely ridiculous to give the universe permission to be the universe. But it's necessary, because we've been relentlessly fighting the flow of It All, in spite of the patent futility, all our lives. So it's helpful - as a temporary measure - to approve and forgive Existence moment by moment, until one realizes that one's mind has been acting as a powerless bureaucrat, plying "Approve!" and "Disapprove" stamps without the least attention being paid (much like the kid and his toy steering wheel....and unlike the reed and the wind). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 02 2013 4:42:57 PM |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2013 : 10:59:30 AM
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Hi Jim and His Karma
In 'the kid and his toy steering wheel' you explained quite well the subtle shift of perspective associated with letting go. Awakening may begin with simply observing how there is a clinging and grasping of the toy wheel. Then we can discover what happens, once we find a way of letting go. Not as easy as it may sound; as most of us know - letting go of that wheel takes a lot of courage, diligence, commitment and self honesty.
But does such an awakening being - with their shift in perspective - also need to pay attention to the vehicle's real driver?
Along with releasing and surrendering the ineffective wheel, does one tend to develop a concommitant willingness for observing and paying attention to the manner in which the car is moving and where it is actually taking us? Letting go of the toy wheel is analogous to releasing obstructions. And at this rather advanced state of consciousness without a multitude of obstructions to distract us...then and only then are we able to be what we are.
And to simply notice what is.
parvati
edit/clarity & amplification
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jul 10 2013 2:59:45 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2013 : 6:35:43 PM
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You don't have to notice what is, because you ARE what is. What your mind thinks about it just doesn't matter. Same for that same mind's "willingness to observe or pay attention" or, for that matter, to compose dense postings about what the mind needs to want to do and wants to need to do and all the many things you need to bear in mind and OH MY GOD IT'S ALL SO COMPLICATED AND DEMANDING AND I THINK I SEE MY WAY THERE - AND I'M REALLY QUITE ADVANCED! - BUT THERE'S STUFF I'VE GOT TO DO AND KEEP IN MIND AND I'LL WORK ON IT UNTIL I'M AT THAT POINT AND EVERYTHING WILL ALL BE JUST PERFECT AS SOON AS MY SPIRITUAL DUCKS ARE IN A ROW AND......
Just let go of the wheel. Period. Don't suck on the notion (and, no, it's NOT analogous to releasing obstructions, or to anything else) as a philosophical lozenge. If you haven't noticed how unhelpful philosophical lozenge sucking is, then patiently wait for yourself to get sick of it. Sometimes we just fall in love with those damned toy steering wheels, and there's nothing to do but wait until the inanity of it dawns. |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2013 : 04:05:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
You don't have to notice what is, because you ARE what is.
So true.
However the mind doesn't generally go instantly silent.. would you agree? The process takes time and quite a lot of patience, skill, diligence, training or practice. Even when one is committed to letting go of the wheel for brief periods of time..the tendency is to grab it again when life gets stressful. It's all about what we choose to keep our attention on and that is determined by what we want, isn't it..
Do we want enlightenment or freedom...and why do we want it? It seems that most people, even those on a spiritual path, primarily want to be happy and relatively at peace with themselves and their lives - however it can be managed. It isn't possible to completely let go of the wheel at the stage where most of us are at. It's more an ongoing process of purification and stabilizing in silence (or peace). And that purification is obstruction removal as well as shifting one's perspective and focus of attention. Not meant to be stated as fact, my opinion only.
parvati
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2013 : 1:19:34 PM
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quote:
However the mind doesn't generally go instantly silent.. would you agree? The process takes time and quite a lot of patience, skill, diligence, training or practice.
Stop trying to make your mind go silent. Let go of all this relentless mental gear-spinning. Don't stop it. Don't try to control the ceding of control. Just LET GO. You are exemplifying the sort of behavior I'm describing, even as you believe yourself to be agreeing with me and enjoying my insights.
At some point, you abandon "doing", and resort to "letting". Doing's hard. Letting's easy. Doing involves rabidly gripping a useless little steering wheel. Why not let daddy drive?
And I'd suggest you stop reading yoga books and forums. You can't think your way to anything but more thinking. Your mind is trying to have a mental experience where your mind succeeds in directing your mind to be something other than mind - all set within the framework of mind - by using your mind to try to construct, parse, and obey mental constructs. It's a huge mind trip, and its stupendously silly.
For god's sake, save yourself time, and just let go of it. Or, if you're not ready yet, grip even more tightly, think even more, try even harder, and, when you see how crazy it makes you, maybe you'll be moved by sheer exasperation to let go. Eventually, everyone realizes the futility of that steering wheel. But first we try to GET BETTER at toy steering. How far down that dead-end does one need to go before recognizing the futility? |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 17 2013 1:20:20 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2013 : 4:47:08 PM
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Another way.
Consider that maybe we're idiots. We're living deluded lives. Capriciously pretending to be individuals, we've become "stuck" in that pretending, and preposterously spend our lives craving completion (in many forms, including yogic), even though we've always encompassed everything. "Residing in a mansion of infinite rooms, I've huddled in but one, Ever rueful of limitation."
And here's the thing: one oughtn't feel smart in expunging one's idiocy. (it seems like a prosaic statement, but it's not; it deserves mulling over). The first step is to consider that one may, in fact, be a clueless idiot. Otherwise idiocy remains entrenched.
If you feel that you know what's to be done, you'll always be limited by that. Why not just heedlessly let go, and see where the four winds blow you? With dumb, blinking, idiot eyes?
The Zen guys talk about "beginner's mind". It's counterintuitive, because we learn to acquire skills and knowledge by accumulating expertise. Yoga goes the other way. If you don't believe me, try a few more years/decades/lifetimes of acquiring yoga expertise, and see where it gets you. You can't be turned inside out if you go in expecting a manicure.
If you assume you've got it/know it/see it, and you just need to sorta polish it all up a little, that's the trip you'll play out. Whatever trip you envision for yourself, that's what you'll spin your wheels on.
If you're able to let go into the recognition that you have no frickin' idea who you are or what's to be done, and that you're getting weary from all the trying to know and to control, all the doubts and stress, all the dogma and pointers, all the grasping of the steering wheel (don't think yoga-flavored toy steering wheels are special....it's the same nonsense, only a notch more hilariously deluded), you may fall into surrender, even if that's not what you're trying to steer yourself toward. At that moment, there are possibilities.
And I don't mean a wussy half-sigh of self-exasperation. I mean going all the way. Don't be afraid to get emotional about it. In fact, complete sobbing despondency would be a good (and appropriate) mind frame. Are you there yet? If not, how long do you need to blithely chase your tail before you recognize how unfathomably hopeless it all is! :)
Do you want to feel smart (like you KNOW), or do you want to feel like an idiot (like you have no frickin' idea)? That's a huge and profound question. If you go with "smart", you'll continue to do hilarious things like using my steering wheel analogy as inspiration to step up your flailing. But if you go with "idiot", there are possibilities. If your impulse is to get atop this all, conceptually, and fashion a terribly mature and spiritual perspective from what I've written, I can tell you: that's 180 degrees wrong. Don't grip tighter. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2013 : 8:12:54 PM
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The desire to participate in life and to experience new shades of BEING is not easily quelled. That desire seems to be the driving force of the universe, actually. Thankfully, the AYP approach does not seek to pacify or curtail that impulse. Quite the contrary, AYP harnesses that hunger and offers hints at how to direct that thirst to fruitful ends. That is why "letting go" is described as active surrender. By turning inward, more is revealed in outward expressions.
When I take an honest look at myself, I see plenty of room for improvement and attunement, and upon realizing this space of possibility, I am granted the grace of having an individual experience in a collective world. I get the privilege and the opportunity to share in an ongoing journey of exploration.
Even as I was picking up tree limbs in the backyard today--noticing lizards, bumblebees, and other creatures--I realized that I could spend weeks studying and investigating the backyard for all manners of activity: growing plants, writing poetry based on inspiration from my observations, tracing the patterns of its inhabitants, etc. In short, what we have found is an infinite field of potential in a seemingly finite space. Indeed, the yoga masters say that the individual is a microcosm of the entire universe.
Therefore, individuality is not a hindrance or obstruction to realizing WHO WE ARE; it's just a gateway. Much easier this way.
Unity. Strength. Wisdom. |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2013 : 11:03:16 PM
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Hi Jim and His Karma
Thank you for the quality response.
Anthem said "It is really just noticing without attachment or aversion that I am referring to." A pithy statement that needs addressing due to its excellence. Regarding the rest of these thoughts - disclaimer applies - it's only personal opinion (as well as being my final contribution to this thread)
It would be preferable to clearly understand what you've expressed: You seem to imply that it is erroneous to know anything and far better to be a happy idiot.. Yet your tone gives one the impression of confidence and wisdom. You know what you are saying is the truth.. at least the truth for you. There is a degree of mastery inherent in your style. You come across as someone who values and strives for wisdom, if not perfection.
That statement by Anthem is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and sums up nicely the motivation of many of us on a spiritual path. However, saying it and being it are two different things. Just because he put those words on this board doesn't mean he is noticing that way 100% of the time, or even 10%. Nevertheless kudos to him for articulating it and also to you for endeavoring to explain something that is not readily apparent or easy to understand.
There are undoubtedly interested people, including myself, who appreciate your insight. You've been generous in offering your advice, so kindly allow me to reciprocate. The things of which you speak so ardently require time. They don't just happen because we desire them. They require quiet mind and a relatively stable foundation of inner silence.
Talk is cheap; authentic being involves a great deal more than conceptualization and discussion. 'Letting go of the toy wheel', surrendering and abiding in peace - is easy to talk about. But being That isn't easy at all.
Spiritual aspirants practice for decades and lifetimes to cultivate inner silence, peace, forgiveness, compassion and balance. And you are saying - just LET GO! It is apparent you would like to save us some time and effort. However there are few, if any, shortcuts. The reality being that it is usually, almost always, a gradual process. And the PREREQUISITE is (obviously) some degree of spiritual skill and equanimity.
Previously I said "letting go of the wheel takes a lot of courage, diligence, commitment and self honesty". Mastery can also be added to that list. Mastery is the development of some skill, such as carpentry, masonry, cooking or gardening... and spiritual pursuits are similar, in the sense that they require mastery in order to be genuinely effective.
"Noticing without attachment or aversion" is not nearly as simple as it sounds! Most of us realize this. It does no good to be impatient with the process - it takes as long as it takes. It isn't sensible to be impatient with oneself or with others. It IS a learning curve and to suggest that it is a cakewalk is to be in denial. You say (paraphrase) - for god's sake just let go already. But what about everything on your path that preceded that spiritual ripeness? It takes time for the fruit to ripen before it loosens its grip on the branch to which it clings..
Respectfully
parvati
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jul 21 2013 10:23:17 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2013 : 7:01:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
being That isn't easy at all.
To be what you are is difficult? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2013 : 12:46:52 PM
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It is not the least bit difficult to be what we are.....so long we're not complete idiots.
Alas, we're complete idiots.
That's the point I've been stating....and restating....and restating. It's the point you've been applauding even as you've sailed by it. You might try inhabiting this perspective and see how it suits you. Or you can keep arguing weightily, with your hard-earned yoga knowledge. In time, though, the evidence will be overwhelming and you'll be forced to face it.
If you've ever tried to help anyone see their own silliness, you know that their efforts to preserve a presumption of intelligence is precisely what keeps them silly. To be smart, feel dumb. To be dumb, feel smart.
We are not growing wise and spiritually awesome as we courageously undergo a long and arduous process toward "perfection" and "mastery". We are, rather, complete freaking morons who've wasted years trying to figure out where we've left our eyeglasses when in fact they've been perched right on our foreheads. We are using yoga practices to try and calm the F down just a tiny little bit and release our stubbornly persistent certainties so maybe what remains will be some actual clarity about what's always been true, all along.
But, hey, you can have it your way. You can make it a tough slog to a high, pristine mountaintop. But, again, be aware that expectations are limitations. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2013 : 1:25:29 PM
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Hi Jim,
Are you saying that things like meditation are just us playing with our minds?
Best, Jeff |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2013 : 4:15:20 PM
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Not at all. As I said, it's a means of calming down and learning to let go a tiny little bit. Not to attain mastery or perfection, but to realize what an utter morons we've been all along for holding on so tenaciously to patently false constructs. It's all been hilariously crazy.
So long as the toddler is absolutely riveted by the illusion that his toy steering wheel is controlling things (despite gigantic evidence to the contrary), he'll snap and lash out if you try to pry his fingers away. If he eventually senses something's off, and learns to relax and unwind just a tiny bit, he may come to notice that he's been laboring under a phenomenally false sense that he's been in control, and all that was ever necessary was to let go of that useless, crummy, plastic toy steering wheel and RELAX and allow Daddy to drive (as if permission was even necessary, given that Daddy's been driving all along!).
It's not a doing, it's a letting go (though, until then, he'll perceive any advice given him as intended to help him to steer more effectively - he's right on the verge of getting it JUST RIGHT!). Indeed, many/most yogis view yoga as a regimen to improve their steering results. And so yoga takes them deeper into delusion. They believe they're becoming great accomplished masters at controlling the ceding of control....utterly without irony. Or, per four postings above, that they're on a long, rigorous journey to reach the distant point of being exactly what they've always been (at which point they'll transform into some sort of ubermensch). Often they even proclaim themselves "enlightened", pinning medals on the very delusion they claimed to have released.
Just let go the wheel. That's it. It's not hooked up to anything. You know that. Like the toddler, you've been pretending otherwise, and got lost in the pretending, but it's abundantly obvious if you'll just relax yourself and your assumptions (including - especially - your yoga assumptions). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 23 2013 4:33:08 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2013 : 5:50:48 PM
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Hi Jim,
How would you apply your above comments to the following words from the Lankavatra Sutra?
"When true egolessness of things and persons is understood, discrimination ceases to assert itself; the lower mind-system ceases to function; the various Bodhisattva stages are followed one after another; the Bodhisattva is able to utter his ten inexhaustible vows and is anointed by all the Buddhas. The Bodhisattva becomes master of himself and of all things by virtue of a life of spontaneous and radiant effortlessness. Thus the Dharma, which is Transcendental Intelligence, transcends all discriminations, all false-reasonings, all philosophical systems, all dualism".
Thanks, Jeff |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2013 : 11:41:55 AM
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Jeff,
That's all you've got?
If we were to take in aggregate all the various spiritual canons of the world, and stack up 1. the zillions of things you've gotta do before you're able to wake up (e.g., Jesus, we'd all better get on learning those ten inexhaustible vows or else we're all sunk.....and, speaking of Jesus, I wonder if Jesus spoke enough Sanskrit to utter them at the anointed time, or else he'd have to have been incomplete, no?) and 2. the zillions of merits and fringe benefits afforded to the wakeful (72 virgins, fellas? Amiright?), you'd be forced to conclude that 1. it's hopeless, and 2. those who make it through the hoops will transform into pretty much every comic book superhero you've ever heard of (Maharshi's followers used to say, quite earnestly, that when he closed his eyes, he'd play ping pong with stars and planets).
Adyashanti does have pretty massive arms, surprisingly. So...hmmm! But I once saw him at a fruit stand, and he was using his feet to walk. Possibly just a deliberate caprice - "old school" locomotion so as not to freak out the locals.
Sorry. To be more serious, I'm not trying to convince anyone to take anything I say on faith. Please, let's not imagine I'm hoping to add "The Gospel According to Some Random Message Board Dude" to the aforementioned canon. There's more than enough canon as-is.
We had a poster here who seemed to get a little spark from my toddler/steering wheel metaphor. But then he got a bit stuck intellectualizing it, and didn't realize he'd sailed by it, falling into the very trap described by that metaphor. When I tried to back up the camera to mirror what had happened, he resorted to still more yoga intellectualization. And so I tried to cut through that from a couple of different fresh angles, hoping to offer a larger perspective. I figured if he dug the metaphor, he might be receptive to the same insight expressed from different angles, and get enjoyment from it in the end (though it was challenging some obviously tightly-held assumptions).
I'm also trying to protect the steering wheel metaphor for readers who come after and view the thread, and might otherwise be inclined to fall into the same trap. It makes me gulp to think that my cute little metaphor about ceding control could be used to try to cling on to control.
That's all. I'm not preaching, I'm just trying to nudge a little. A nudge I'd have appreciated a few years ago. And pretty much the same nudge as the metaphor that afforded a tiny something to this particular person.
If neither the metaphor nor my follow-ups do anything for you, then, cool. What I'm saying's not for you right now. But the very last thing I want is to argue dogma. Arguing dogma with someone who's urging the dropping of dogma is about as useful as claiming credit for surrendering control. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 24 2013 11:43:40 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2013 : 12:35:45 PM
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Jim,
Like you..."I'm not preaching, I'm just trying to nudge a little." If the Buddhist Sutra quote doesn't "do anything for you, then, cool".
In your kids wheel analogy... What is the difference between you and the wheel itself, and the car, and the road...
Enjoy the day.  |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2013 : 2:39:15 PM
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| Oh, I love the sutras. I just don't take them literally. And nudges are nudges. Not ultimate truth (which is non-conceptual). To wield these "skillful means" in debate, ala dogma, is, IMO, missing the point. Kindly note the "IMO" ;) |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2013 : 7:28:26 PM
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| Ok. Thanks. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2013 : 8:07:24 PM
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Anthem, I can relate with what you write in the opening post, and remember clearly going through much of the same thing (though no symptoms or overloads) back with breath meditation. There was clinging to the peace and coherence, and resistance against others who by association acted as a destabilizing influence. Part of this is still true. They lacked devotion to a higher path, and are at the mercy of their minds and of waking sleep much stronger than myself. Not only that, but they have active resistance even when it comes to accepting me as I am.
The important part that has come through to me, in various forums, books, reflections, and conversations is that whatever we gain, if it falls away in stress or under such oppressive environments, it is still impermanent, and of no consequence beyond its purpose as a stepping stone to something greater. It isn't something to discard or feel bad about, since it is where the bhakti is at the time, and anything that promotes devotion and sense of achievement (chopping the branch we sit on) will never be a problem: as Yogani and others teach us, the ishta too becomes an obstacle eventually, with the crucial exception that it is the only thing that burns itself up and yield to the change at the exact moment of ripeness to which it has been instrumental in facilitating all along.
quote:
Originally posted by kami
[..] innumerable other techniques to this same end. Until it was seen that there will never be an end to chasing it all. In fact, there was a "tighter", more constricting ego (doer) identification with "I" needing to find what is wrong with "me". Upon closer examination, all of it arising, of course, from the mental image of what enlightenment/realization looks like [..] learning to rest without itching to "do" something about the mind has been the greatest practice [..] Resting as the knowing awareness and watching it all rise and fall without "sticking to it" lets me see the stream of emotions and thought processes doing their "thing".
Kami, words of clarity very helpful to see written, like beacons across a sometimes clouded path. They again resonate strongly here as the circles I've been running in my own mind enough times to see through this game. Thank you. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2013 : 10:58:13 PM
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I like your humor, Jim. It cuts through the cotton candy.  |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2013 : 03:00:45 AM
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| i second Bodhi Tree |
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Letting go of bliss, ecstasy and equanimity
