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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 08 2013 : 09:10:33 AM
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I come from a religious tradition that rather elevated suffering. We were to 'offer up our sufferings' 'take up our crosses' and it seemed that if there was no suffering then we were doing something wrong. Now I begin to get the impression that we can actually enjoy our spiritual journey. Not only that but the AYP practices seem to be very gentle. We don't seem to have to sit for hours wrestling with quietening our minds or do hard things to help us along the path. In fact it seems to me that when the core deep meditation and paranyama practices are put into motion the whole journey takes on a life of its own and gets you down the path in peace without having to shriek and scream in suffering at all! Is it really this easy so that we don't really have to be unduly concerned, we can enjoy the scenery and know that we are getting there by 'not doing' in our doing? No penances? No terrible trials to test us? Just gentle favouring of the practices? Wowee! Count me in! |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2013 : 12:25:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by catrynn
I come from a religious tradition that rather elevated suffering. We were to 'offer up our sufferings' 'take up our crosses' and it seemed that if there was no suffering then we were doing something wrong. Now I begin to get the impression that we can actually enjoy our spiritual journey.
Hi catrynn,
I come from that religious tradition too; and I too am feeling oh so lucky to have found a path that is liberating from the sort of false valorization of suffering that you speak of. That said, I am also discovering that within our religious tradition there are some who really understand deep gratitude for all that is, and grace and surrender and true joy that is at the heart of the tradition, for as Jesus said,
"'Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 'For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.'”
And so wisdom comes full circle.
Namaste, and Peace  |
Edited by - bewell on Jun 08 2013 12:28:29 PM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2013 : 12:42:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by catrynn
Do we need to suffer in the AYP yoga Practice?
Yes!
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2013 : 09:24:13 AM
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| Thank you Bewell for your comment. I am glad to hear that the emphasis is changing and Joy and gratitude are coming into their own. Thank you too cosmic though you didn't say what sort of suffering. I know there purification is part of the process and so we can suffer through that but I haven't gathered that we have to go out of our way to suffer. It's more accepting what comes rather than looking for it specifically as we think it will make our spiritual path more worthy. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2013 : 09:54:55 AM
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Hi Catrynn,
Welcome to the forum.
Purification in yoga does not necessarily imply suffering. The symptoms of purification can include things such as heat in the body, shaking, sensations of energy flowing in the body and so on. They are not necessarily unpleasant or painful, and in fact, if the yoga is being practised properly then they usually are not.
If things get a bit heated in terms of purification, with too much of a good thing happening then things can become uncomfortable or even painful. The usual examples of this would be headaches, or rashes on the skin and so on. If this happens, then we deliberately cut back on our spiritual practices to find a stable routine that we can manage over the long term which is pain free. Basically there is no need to suffer at all in yoga. We watch for the early signs of suffering and stay on the pain free side of it. 
Of course it is not always an easy ride, and people (including myself) slip up from time to time. In my own case, the times when I have gone over the edge were times when I was testing the limits to see if they really were my limits. They usually were. 
Personally I have never interpreted the Christian message of "take up your cross" to imply that you need to suffer, but rather that you have a duty to engage in spiritual practice for your own sake and for the sake of the world. Christ's message for me was always one of love, not of pain. It is about self-surrender and forgiveness and prayer.
Ultimately, being disconnected from the divine is a painful state to be in, which is what sin is all about. So there is suffering built in to the spiritual life to some degree, otherwise there would be no need for spirituality at all. But gradually, as we proceed in yoga, painful moments become fewer and fewer and are replaced by joy and gratitude and a sense of ever overflowing grace and peace -or "benediction" as they say in the Christian tradition .
Christi |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2013 : 12:34:55 PM
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Hi Catrynn and welcome to the forums...
My observation is that we each have different paths and how each path manifests is entirely individual. For me, suffering is absolutely a part of "my path" (as are the AYP practices). Does doing AYP practices mean that you will have to suffer? No. Does it mean you won't? Also no. My experience is that "waking up" is painful. Waking up requires that you look in every dark corner of yourself and become conscious of what is not already in full (conscious) view of "the light." Seeing all about ourselves, depending on how attached you are to what you believe yourself to be, can cause immense amounts of suffering. It all depends on how attached you are. But we are as attached as we are, and we can not think ourselves out of attachment (for long)... removing attachments takes work. AYP helps with that.
Here is a poem By Vigdis Garbarek that really sums up the whole path to me... hope it holds some value for you as well.
"Dare to look at yourself.
Learn to know all about yourself,
so that nothing is unfamiliar to you.
You must want to see the whole,
that which you like to know about yourself,
as well as that which you do not want to know
about yourself.
What you want to know, runs forward like a willing brook.
What you do not want to know,
is like the water hindered by twigs and dead leaves;
in the stagnation it is changed slowly,
from being the life-giving, into the brackish water
that poisons your life.
All you run away from follows you, in order to set you free."
The fact that Vigdis uses the word "Dare" in "Dare to look at yourself" is very telling. The only reason one would have to "dare" to look at oneself is because it is not easy, because it is hard, because it causes suffering. The AYP concept of self pacing helps to mitigate the amount of suffering experienced at any one given time, but I have a feeling that at least some suffering is going to happen for everyone as they come to see all about themselves. Hope this helps.
Love,
Carson 
P.S. I have a sense that the paths that include immense amount of suffering (as long as the attachment to suffering itself has been worked through) tend to be "faster" (I say that knowing full well that time is just a concept and doesn't actually exist on an ultimate level). I believe this is because we as humans tend to want to avoid suffering at all costs. But if we are willing to suffer (in amounts that are manageable) the amount of "traction" that can be gained is significant and great strides can be made in seeing ourselves... and quickly. Just something I thought I should add. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2013 : 1:46:53 PM
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| beautiful post Carson and beautiful poem |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2013 : 3:16:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Catrynn,
Welcome to the forum.
Purification in yoga does not necessarily imply suffering. The symptoms of purification can include things such as heat in the body, shaking, sensations of energy flowing in the body and so on. They are not necessarily unpleasant or painful, and in fact, if the yoga is being practised properly then they usually are not.
If things get a bit heated in terms of purification, with too much of a good thing happening then things can become uncomfortable or even painful. The usual examples of this would be headaches, or rashes on the skin and so on. If this happens, then we deliberately cut back on our spiritual practices to find a stable routine that we can manage over the long term which is pain free. Basically there is no need to suffer at all in yoga. We watch for the early signs of suffering and stay on the pain free side of it.
Of course it is not always an easy ride, and people (including myself) slip up from time to time. In my own case, the times when I have gone over the edge were times when I was testing the limits to see if they really were my limits. They usually were.
Personally I have never interpreted the Christian message of "take up your cross" to imply that you need to suffer, but rather that you have a duty to engage in spiritual practice for your own sake and for the sake of the world. Christ's message for me was always one of love, not of pain. It is about self-surrender and forgiveness and prayer.
Ultimately, being disconnected from the divine is a painful state to be in, which is what sin is all about. So there is suffering built in to the spiritual life to some degree, otherwise there would be no need for spirituality at all. But gradually, as we proceed in yoga, painful moments become fewer and fewer and are replaced by joy and gratitude and a sense of ever overflowing grace and peace -or "benediction" as they say in the Christian tradition .
Christi
Such beauty in your words Christi! You are so incredibly gifted in your clarity and writing. All of it rings true here. Thank you.
With respect to suffering, it all depends on the definition of "suffering". The millions without food and/or shelter or those with great loss/illness have reasons to suffer. Even some of these folks may not "suffer" despite going through such immense pain, hunger or loss. It all is dependent on identification - the greater the identification as this body-mind, the greater is the suffering.
Here in yoga, we are systematically developing the ability to let go of that identification. It is a gradual process, and works by loosening up all of it from deep within and bringing it to the surface so it can be let go of. Along the way, there can be periods of intense identification and suffering, particularly when big "chunks" of stuff are brought up. They come and go in cycles until very gradually, they can be seen coming up and falling without getting attached.
Personally, I've never understood the glorification of suffering. Like Christi said, to me, Jesus represents love and forgiveness. Bearing one's cross is to take complete responsibility for our lives, similar to what is said in the Gita (6:5):
"One must deliver oneself with the help of his mind, and not degrade himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his enemy as well."
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2013 : 12:07:02 AM
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I think the concept of the suffering of Jesus is very useful to us. Not for us to try to repeat it, but quite the opposite. When you think you have troubles, compare them to the troubles Jesus had, and they will seem like nothing.
I think he suffered more than necessary; I mean if you know what will happen on the cross, and everyone did back then, why would you carry it across town? I think most of us would flip them off, and try to take out one of them as they kill us, no cross needed. But that's the whole purpose; Christians say he suffered so we don't have to.
I know this differs a little from the reason that is taught, but comparing our own suffering to Jesus makes it seem like nothing. |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2013 : 07:55:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I think the concept of the suffering of Jesus is very useful to us. Not for us to try to repeat it, but quite the opposite. When you think you have troubles, compare them to the troubles Jesus had, and they will seem like nothing.
I think he suffered more than necessary; I mean if you know what will happen on the cross, and everyone did back then, why would you carry it across town? I think most of us would flip them off, and try to take out one of them as they kill us, no cross needed. But that's the whole purpose; Christians say he suffered so we don't have to.
I know this differs a little from the reason that is taught, but comparing our own suffering to Jesus makes it seem like nothing.
Jesus did not undergo the crucifixion for the guys having a bad day to compare their suffering and cheer up. If you need bad stories for cheering up your bad day there are stories of infinitely more painful experiences than that suffered by Jesus - such as WW1, WW2, bloodbath during India's partition, etc.
Jesus's life was not wasted like these stories involving unnecessary murders. He was merely obedient to God's will which if I understood correctly was to show to the people that Jesus had conquered death and that he could rise from the dead.
Anyone who sees virtue in causing self harm, like the characters in Davinci code, is deluded, for they are insulting their temple of God and the holy spirit that resides in it. On the other hand, the self-inquirer knows that there is sh*t load of suffering in life already.
Edit after reading Etherfish's reply: Yes I have heard that meaningless drivel and it never made any sense. |
Edited by - Maximus on Jun 11 2013 05:47:43 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2013 : 10:43:53 PM
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| Have you ever heard the expression that Jesus suffered to save us from suffering? If that doesn't mean to think of his suffering to lessen our own, then what does it mean to you? |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2013 : 04:57:50 AM
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On "suffering" and AYP: the example of the Siddhasana lesson: http://www.aypsite.org/75.html
In AYP we are not into unnecessary bodily pain, or risking injury. In the AYP Siddhasana lesson, for example, we are not called to go out on a rock, and without back support sit in the lotus position. That may be fine for some yogis, but the lesson does not even challenge us to aspire to it. Instead, we are free to use back support and sit on a soft surface, and modify as needed so as not to injure the knees. We are aiming for a form of siddhasana that is "completely comfortable physically."
A second area of the AYP culture, and siddhasana practice specifically, where we are not into "suffering" is in the area of riding through sexual feelings. The goal is to channel sexual energy upward in a natural flow. In the siddhasana lesson, Yogani compares this to training wild horse. It requires some intention and discipline, but the view of sexuality through the lessons is modern and moderate, not repressive or needlessly strict.
So we aim for gain the benefits of yoga without much pain, and indeed, with pleasure. |
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2013 : 12:06:21 PM
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Christi, CarsonZiKami, Etherfish, Maximus and Bewell, thank you so much for your welcome and for this interesting discussion. I have picked up two points from it and I am open to correction on anything.
1) Suffering can come when we face up to the truth of ourselves as we have lived our lives and find out not only about we like about ourselves but what we don't - perhaps the result of our karma. That was a beautiful post about this CarsonZi. Thank you. It can cause us upset and suffering to realize what we really are. But in seeing how others have suffered and conquered, we may find inspiration.
2)The AYP practices generally lead to increasing peace rather than to suffering. They are gentle when used with self-pacing and the scenery on the way can provide times of intense beauty. It seems to me that by surrendering to this path it takes on a life of its own, taking us into blessings for ourselves, for those around us and for the world. Not immediately of course but almost inevitably and, dare I say it, almost despite ourselves, for we do no more than what we usually do in the developing scheme of gently favouring the practices. It does not seem to me that we have to do anything 'out of the ordinary' to get these results in time. They are part of the life awakening in us as our doing the practices. So for example, I don't need to stand on one foot for a month or prostrate myself every Sunday for a year or seek out special suffering. I just gently favour my practices. Have I understood this correctly? If I have it is really quite amazing!
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2013 : 5:48:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by catrynn
Have I understood this correctly? If I have it is really quite amazing!
Yeah, it is amazing. Sounds to me like you are getting it pretty well!
But then who am I to judge? As Yogani tells us, TGIY -The guru is in you. Which means to me, the use of practices and discernment of the relationship between practice and results is for each of us to explore in a Self/self-directed way. Enjoy wisely and responsibly. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2013 : 5:56:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by catrynn
Thank you too cosmic though you didn't say what sort of suffering.
Hi catrynn,
I didn't mean it so seriously. Suffering has been a part of my path recently, but that doesn't mean you or anyone else must suffer in order to progress spiritually.
I would just humbly suggest that if suffering arises, not to push it away or make it "bad". A certain degree of suffering is inevitable in life. I'm finding that learning to be with my own suffering is increasing my level of compassion for others' suffering. It also increases my honoring of Truth and my willingness to be with what is, let go of judgments and stories, and be more comfortable with the difficult aspects of life.
Suffering doesn't need to be elevated, but it can definitely be used on the path. I guess that's the bottom line of what I'm saying.
Namaste
cosmic |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2013 : 10:00:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
... if suffering arises, not to push it away or make it "bad". A certain degree of suffering is inevitable in life. I'm finding that learning to be with my own suffering is increasing my level of compassion for others' suffering. It also increases my honoring of Truth and my willingness to be with what is, let go of judgments and stories, and be more comfortable with the difficult aspects of life.
cosmic
That resonates with me, Cosmic.
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2013 : 05:58:00 AM
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| Thanks Bewell for your encouragement. Thanks too Cosmic. I was being too serious as usual What you say resonates with me too and is beautifully put. I have had my share of suffering recently too. Someone healed themselves from an illness by watching comic movies so perhaps your light-heartedness is the right track! |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2013 : 4:58:16 PM
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As a Buddhist, my first response to this thread was to echo the First of the Four Noble Truths: Life is "Dukkha". Dukkha is a Buddhist term commonly translated as "suffering", "stress", "anxiety", or "dissatisfaction", and is identified as the first of the Four Noble Truths.
Within the Buddhist tradition, dukkha is commonly explained according to three different patterns or categories. In the first category, dukkha includes the obvious physical suffering or pain associated with giving birth, growing old, physical illness and the process of dying. These outer discomforts are referred to as the dukkha of ordinary suffering. In a second category, dukkha also includes the anxiety or stress of trying to hold onto things that are constantly changing; these inner anxieties are called the dukkha produced by change. The third pattern or category of dukkha refers to a basic unsatisfactoriness pervading all forms of life because all forms of life are impermanent and constantly changing. On this level, the term indicates a lack of satisfaction, a sense that things never measure up to our expectations or standards. This subtle dissatisfaction is referred to as the dukkha of conditioned states.
The central importance of dukkha in Buddhist philosophy is not intended to present a pessimistic view of life, but rather to present a realistic practical assessment of the human condition—that all beings must experience suffering and pain at some point in their lives, including the inevitable sufferings of illness, aging, and death. Contemporary Buddhist teachers and translators emphasize that while the central message of Buddhism is optimistic, the Buddhist view of our situation in life (the conditions that we live in) is neither pessimistic nor optimistic, but realistic. Contemporary Buddhist teacher Surya Das emphasizes the matter-of-fact nature of dukkha: "Buddha Dharma does not teach that everything is suffering. What Buddhism does say is that life, by its nature, is difficult, flawed, and imperfect. That's the nature of life, and that's the First Noble Truth. From the Buddhist point of view, this is not a judgement of life's joys and sorrows; this is a simple, down-to-earth, matter-of-fact description."
In my long experience, in both life (61 years on this wheel) and meditation practice (43 years), yes. you will necessarily go through some periods of suffering. I consider that I have led a rather charmed life and have been mostly happy and fortunate throughout. However, I HAVE suffered, and I have learned from and grown because of it. I consider my suffering to be the source of my strength and courage, my endurance and flexibility. If we suffer but fail to evolve spiritually, then that is needless, wasted suffering--a true tragedy. But if we take our sufferings as the life lessons to teach us how to Be, how to accept, change and live in peace, then it's not suffering at all, but how we get through this life and to the best next one. My suffering has not been easy, and I did consider these trials to be serious while they were occurring--serious chronic childhood disease, infertility, deaths of my parents at a young age, heart attack in my 40s, my wife's death from cancer in her early 50s--nobody would be incorrect for labeling these things major misfortunes. However, as each was faced, more and more equanimity was gained each time, more strength and skill to navigate trecherous waters was applied, and ultimately, one becomes like... Well, my guru used to tell a story of how one's life would improve after many years of spiritual practices. He said that as we first begin, life is like wet cement--when something makes an impression on it, it hardens and is with us forever. After we have been meditating for a while, we become like wet sand at the beach--many impressions are made which may upset our functioning, but twice a day the tide comes in, and when it goes out again, the impressions are erased. After many decades of practice, we become like the surface of a pond--when a pebble is tossed in, or a splash made, the impression does make momentary waves, we act and react, but yet the pond surface smooths out as soon as the impression is made...
I may continue to suffer--certainly, as my body ages, there is more pain, discomfort, dis-ease and difficulty with physical tasks. However, That's just how it is, and I no longer am upset about whatever pain I may experience, whatever success or failure I may achieve, however much grief or love I may gain or loose. Life is less and less colored by the outer changes in body and environment and more and more established in the unchanging eternal "sat-chit-ananda" of Pure Consciousness...
Michael |
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mathurs
United Kingdom
197 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2013 : 06:23:46 AM
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| Thanks Mikkiji! Loved the story as well. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2013 : 06:51:43 AM
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Thank you Mikkiji for your infinitely wise and compassionate post.
quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
.. my guru used to tell a story of how one's life would improve after many years of spiritual practices. He said that as we first begin, life is like wet cement--when something makes an impression on it, it hardens and is with us forever. After we have been meditating for a while, we become like wet sand at the beach--many impressions are made which may upset our functioning, but twice a day the tide comes in, and when it goes out again, the impressions are erased. After many decades of practice, we become like the surface of a pond--when a pebble is tossed in, or a splash made, the impression does make momentary waves, we act and react, but yet the pond surface smooths out as soon as the impression is made...
A few days ago, while cooking, I was thankful to be using a non-stick pan for this particular culinary experiment. And it occurred that the spiritual path is about being transformed from a regular pan to a non-stick one - what is cooked in it can be delicious at times and not so much at others, yet the pan remains pristine..
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2013 : 12:24:21 PM
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| Thank you Mikkiji. I found your post so enlightening and so encouraging. I really appreciate it. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2013 : 12:27:11 PM
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| wise words dear Mikkiji |
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2013 : 04:12:01 AM
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| I have just read AYP Practices Lesson 321 - an Inquiry about Ending Suffering. It too is most enlightening and worth getting under our skin. Thanks Yogani for that. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2013 : 11:03:40 AM
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This wonderful topic came to mind spontaneously, with the following general thoughts (not in reply to anyone) that might be worth sharing: is it not interesting how suffering is endured without much questioning, then more efforts and suffering are taken on with the (mostly futile) idea that it will lessen or remove the suffering, but when it comes to suffering as part of or incidental to any spiritual path to which its practitioners can stand behind their experience that it has removed suffering to whatever extent, it is immediately seen as excessive or in question?
The mind by itself works in strange ways. Observing it and inquiring are about the only ways to begin to see beyond its folly. |
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winovy
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2013 : 7:52:51 PM
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| Pantangali describes that the purpose of yoga is to remove the cause of suffering. This suffering is caused by ignorance, and so we strive for "enlightenment." Swami Vivekananda describes enlightenment as occurring in the blink of an eye. We see what we think is a snake. Then realize it is only a rope - enlightenment. I feel that we suffer as much as we are removed from our true self. That our true self is one of happiness, bhakti as Yogani seems to describe it, our highest ideal. So I don't see that Jesus suffered on the cross. He was forgiving the sins of the others on the cross and of those who condemned him. I feel that he suffered more in the garden as he sought clarity praying that this cup may pass from him. For that difficult moment he was in ignorance of his true self. Spiritual practice I feel is one of following one's happiness, but I accept that pain may be discovered. Alot of pain may be found when we look back on some of the things we broke or let go of before we found our spiritual practice and the true value of living. |
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Arman
Australia
47 Posts |
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Do we need to suffer in the AYP yoga Practice?
