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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 11 2012 : 9:09:42 PM
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one of the things I have pondered a little bit lately is, how can two enlightened gurus have two different views, in particularly regarding sex. Anandamayi ma teaches that sex is best avoided and another, such as osho may teach it is a beautiful experience. If both are enlightened, one with all, then how can the views vary? I would think that the moral values for God would be the same, so therefore anyone enlightened would have the same understandings.
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2012 : 10:52:32 PM
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Maybe no one is enlightened. 
I think that with any choice, the best course is to steer faithfully to whatever one's own moral compass is reading. So, in the case of Anandamayi ma and Osho, I would say that they are both right. I don't think that two different people having different opinions on things like sex makes them "not one." I think of it this way... A diamond has many facets, but it's all the same rock.
I think it's possible for humankind to be all one with one another and yet still celebrate all of our wondrous diversity. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 12:19:54 AM
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| Lesson 260 touches on that really well. |
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LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 3:15:51 PM
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Not to be rude, but it always seemed to me that Anadamayi's husband always looked a bit sad in photos  . |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 3:41:17 PM
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| There's also the non-dual aspect - that morality arises in duality - (good/bad up/down left/right inside/outside God/World self/other etc.) |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 9:24:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gatito
There's also the non-dual aspect - that morality arises in duality - (good/bad up/down left/right inside/outside God/World self/other etc.)
Hi Gatito: I've often wondered about that...if non-duality was amoral.... My gut tells me it isn't, but I've seen enough people so "embraced by the holy spirit," that they don't see it when their actions inflict great harm. If I were to answer my own question, I would say that if a person has a non-dual perspective, the harm would be immediately detectable because they would feel it as if inflicted upon themselves. But maybe not. I guess I'm just looking for another perspective on the question. |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 9:47:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LittleTurtle
Not to be rude, but it always seemed to me that Anadamayi's husband always looked a bit sad in photos .
Hi LittleTurtle: I'm guessing you come down on the Osho side of the argument. 
But there are lots of reasons the man might seem a little sad, and sex might be a very small part of it. I don't know a single thing about Anandamayi, but I know that the spouse of a spiritual leader can have a very hard life. There's the constant, often invasive, judgmental scrutiny. There's the envy of countless followers. And imagine this scenario for a moment: Someone asks him a question about some matter, and he gives his best, honest answer. Then that someone turns around and later asks the same question of his wife, and she gives a different answer. Then that someone says to his wife, "but your husband told me..." It's a scenario that plays out over and over in the families of the pastors who serve our churches. I can't imagine it would be much different for a guru's spouse. I told my hubby when I married him that if he ever decided to become a pastor, I would leave him and never look back. He just laughed at me and told me not to worry. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I imagine being the spouse of a spiritual leader can be so extremely sucky, I don't think any amount of sex would make up for it. It takes a super-strong love to stay.
Edit: I realize I'm reading into a life story that I know nothing about. You're getting my parent's story from my point of view as their child. |
Edited by - whippoorwill on Feb 12 2012 10:00:20 PM |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 10:54:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
quote:
Originally posted by gatito
There's also the non-dual aspect - that morality arises in duality - (good/bad up/down left/right inside/outside God/World self/other etc.)
Hi Gatito: I've often wondered about that...if non-duality was amoral.... My gut tells me it isn't, but I've seen enough people so "embraced by the holy spirit," that they don't see it when their actions inflict great harm. If I were to answer my own question, I would say that if a person has a non-dual perspective, the harm would be immediately detectable because they would feel it as if inflicted upon themselves. But maybe not. I guess I'm just looking for another perspective on the question.
Hi whippoorwill
From a non-dual perspective there are not two perspectives. But that's probably not very helpful!
What you might find more useful is to examine your own present experience. Hopefully, you have a sense of yourself as Consciousness/Awareness or Knowing/Being. In that Consciousness, the question has arisen. Is that Consciousness itself moral, amoral or immoral? Can you actually say anything at all about it? Is it, in fact, the background to all that arises. Does it ever judge anything, or does it Lovingly accept everything including any judgement that may appear to arise and subside in it?
This is always available for you to investigate and only your own investigation is of value (unless you'd prefer to adopt a belief system).
Hope that helps. If not, please feel free to question the response and I'll do my best to clarify it.
With Love |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 01:30:23 AM
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quote:
I've often wondered about that...if non-duality was amoral.... My gut tells me it isn't, but I've seen enough people so "embraced by the holy spirit," that they don't see it when their actions inflict great harm.
you will always have pretenders...a genuine non dual person or one that is really embraced by holy spirit will not allow harmful actions to pile up ...
but again what constitutes a harmeful action? sometimes what you see as harmeful or amoral is the best thing that could happen ......rest assured that nothing happens as a coincidence ...all is unfloding perfectly the way it should |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 8:17:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gatito
From a non-dual perspective there are not two perspectives. But that's probably not very helpful!
Haha! But the rest of what you wrote helped. It spurred a flash of intuition last night, which I'm now struggling to recapture.
It was... Aha! The awareness never judges! It just witnesses and accepts. (Being more in touch with that awareness has helped me to become more accepting of the things that happen day-to-day.) Since morality is most definitely a judgement call, the mind is involved. Awareness is before morality?
Then I wondered further that if non-duality was simply being this awareness, then a person in a non-dual state would never really do anything.
Then my mind broke in and said that all of that was complete and utter hogwash. How could a person live without doing anything? Even acceptance is an action that can be undertaken or not. Then I went to sleep. I have a long way to go. |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 8:19:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
sometimes what you see as harmeful or amoral is the best thing that could happen ......rest assured that nothing happens as a coincidence ...all is unfloding perfectly the way it should
Yes, I'm beginning to think you might be right. But sometimes it is a very hard thing to accept. |
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FutureHumanDestiny
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 8:33:20 PM
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for the record, and i'm sorry for attracting controversy, but osho wasn't enlightened. he found zen.
osho said: ""The day I became enlightened" simply means the day I realized that there is nothing to achieve, there is nowhere to go, there is nothing to be done."
which might be zen, may be vedanta, and might be the realization of pure conscious awarenesss, and it may even be "enlightenment" as defined by modern Caucasian gurus (i'm white by the way), but it is not the traditional definition of enlightenment by the enlightenment traditions, which involves the progression through kundalini, samadhi and beyond.
my 2c.
-dale.
ps.- osho's lifestyle was more extravagant and superfluous than scrooge McDuck's, and more lavish, too. yet his followers, who also did not become enlightened, defend his worldliness as strangely moral.
because of their compassion and intrinsic knowledge of suffering, the enlightened despise materialism, always, without exception. period. |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 8:53:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
quote:
Originally posted by gatito
From a non-dual perspective there are not two perspectives. But that's probably not very helpful!
Haha! But the rest of what you wrote helped. It spurred a flash of intuition last night, which I'm now struggling to recapture.
It was... Aha! The awareness never judges! It just witnesses and accepts. (Being more in touch with that awareness has helped me to become more accepting of the things that happen day-to-day.) Since morality is most definitely a judgement call, the mind is involved. Awareness is before morality?
Then I wondered further that if non-duality was simply being this awareness, then a person in a non-dual state would never really do anything.
Then my mind broke in and said that all of that was complete and utter hogwash. How could a person live without doing anything? Even acceptance is an action that can be undertaken or not. Then I went to sleep. I have a long way to go.
The "answer" is in the present moment, last night's flash of intuition happened in the present moment. You don't need to recapture it - it's always there available. It's not an investigation of the apparent past but of your own present experience and it's not a philosophical understanding but a seeing of what's here.
Morality arises in Consciousness or more accurately, is made of Consciousness. One is not before the other because like all apparent subject/object pairs they happen in the present moment - now. Have you ever experienced anything except the present moment? (Memories appear in the present moment - in case your mind was going to raise that objection )
There is actually no person to do anything but doing still happens. This can be investigated - see if you can find a person doing or choosing. It's just a belief, usually coupled with a sensation, that arises in Consciousness. If the investigation is undertaken systematically the beliefs collapse and reveal Nowness.
You are already here. Just look |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2012 : 03:57:03 AM
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Try and turn it around. Are they enlightened? Is he Amoral? Is she Evil?
Imagine a hall of mirrors in which you did not recognise your own reflection because you were wearing a disguise. Each reflection represents a different facet of your nature, indeed that is the ONLY way it can be recognised.
Sometimes we even manage to project onto seemingly inanimate objects our own values. That stubborn bolt, a door that was being deliberately obstructive, the evil looking tree. Taking a step back it is obvious that these objects are only objects and it is easy to laugh at our mistake.
Yet, it is not so easy to see that in other people. It is far harder to separate the projection from the person. Just as the disguised person cannot easily identify their reflection.
Just as Sunlight has no colour, but the surfaces it strikes are infinite rainbows. Take away the Sun and the surfaces have no colour, they become neutral objects, with form only.
You can see this from the point prior to awareness if it is used as a datum. It's difficult because the mind sucks us straight back in, takes charge and begins judging. Ah yes, like this, like that, different to, like, dislike, safe, dangerous.
This is what is seen in the Gurus differences, your own nature reflected back, causing separation.
It's not necessary to remain in that none dual state, only to recognise it for what it is, to break down the separation and look at each object as a child would, with wonder, untainted by your own nature. Then each has value as a learning instrument.
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2012 : 4:10:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
Maybe no one is enlightened.
well teachers say, from the non dual sense, that this is true. sense I have not come to that realization Ill keep on meditating. some of the same teachers that say this, also say that they understand that I and them are one, that is something I do not know but believe they understand. maybe one day ill get it. |
Edited by - brother neil on Feb 14 2012 4:30:19 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2012 : 4:14:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LittleTurtle
Not to be rude, but it always seemed to me that Anadamayi's husband always looked a bit sad in photos .
I read two of her books and what i got was this, her husband did want to have a normal marriage, and she kept the house for him very well, was a great wife, cooking and cleaning, but would not sleep with him. When he looked at her with the slightest bit of lust in his eyes, she would zap him into samadhi for a few hours |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4381 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2012 : 4:30:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
one of the things I have pondered a little bit lately is, how can two enlightened gurus have two different views, in particularly regarding sex. Anandamayi ma teaches that sex is best avoided and another, such as osho may teach it is a beautiful experience. If both are enlightened, one with all, then how can the views vary? I would think that the moral values for God would be the same, so therefore anyone enlightened would have the same understandings.
Hi Brother neil,
I don't see it as a moral issue at all. There is nothing amoral about sex, or about chastity. It is a question of what you want, and how you are going to go about getting there. If you want to have children, then sex is a really good idea. But if you want to become enlightened, then sex can become an issue.
Quite simply, it is very difficult to reach enlightenment unless you retain sexual energy and sexual fluids. So traditionally, spiritual teachers all over the world have advised people who are serious about the spiritual path to avoid sex altogether. The other way, is the way of Tantric sex, which is what Osho taught (amongst others). Neither are right, or wrong, or moral or amoral, they are just different paths.
Christi
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2012 : 01:45:43 AM
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| very well said Christi |
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LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2012 : 1:37:10 PM
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| whippoorwill and brother neil thanks for your imput! :) |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2012 : 2:57:03 PM
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"Normal sexual life is neither spiritual nor aspiritual, but if you practice yoga and master certain techniques, then sexual life becomes spiritual. Of course, if you lead a celibate life, that is spiritual too."
(The late Swami Satyananda, in Kundalini Tantra, talking about the Left-hand path and awakening). |
Edited by - HathaTeacher on Feb 15 2012 2:57:50 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2012 : 5:09:16 PM
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pondered this a little. since starting this thread I have read a bit of Osho as a lot of it is free online. anyways, he seemed to like the concept ofsome drastic end of life event solidifying a saints place in history, jesus on the cross and he used other examples. in reading his writings, he seeems pretty enlightened and not much that i can disagree with. he says tings like we should live in small villages in nature and leave the big cities, sexual energy should be cultivated and not depleted, even says that you should be nice to your shoes when you put them down and doors when you close them.
Is it possible he went crazy on purpose and did things to the extreme to be imoortal and remembered forever? |
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different moral values
