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 Ecstatic dissolution! How about the theory?
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brunoloff

Netherlands
47 Posts

Posted - Feb 28 2010 :  11:38:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit brunoloff's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hello all,

It seems I have made another classic mistake :-)

I've been doing 15 minutes of DM a day for a month and a half. Somewhere along the middle I decided to try the solar centering enhancement. I found that it left me feeling much more balanced than without, so I continued. Eight days ago I decided to add SBP. I

This resulted in many symptoms of purification. E.g. I am getting purification inside my eyeballs, which resulted in me being able to read from further away (I am near-sighted).

Then about wednesday, the tingling sensations at the bottom of my throat got really intense and thursday morning I was about my business and suddenly it was as if the front channel / spinal nerve connection had closed; I had a tingle deep inside my nose, and then a strong sensation of pull in my perineum and testicles, my testicles where pulled inside my body, and ZZZZZT, huge flow of electricity up my spine, reaching my third eye, and then going down my front. It was so intense and pleasurable, that I was scared.

This happened throughout all morning, and thus I wasn't really able to work all that much. Given that it was interfering with my life, I stopped all practices. Now it's a little better, I can read again and so on, but I still have these amazing surges, which are very distracting when they occur (I even woke up a few times tonight with these things). They sometimes involve energy coming in through the tip of the penis as well, and when this happens the ecstasy is pronouncedly sexual, I get an erection and so on. When the ecstasy calms down, the feeling is of an inner void.

I was wondering
(1) what is happening exactly?
(2) when should I resume practice? Should I wait for these surges to settle down or should I do DM anyway? Should I drop the solar centering enhancement?


Also I have a question for Yogani: How about the theory behind how all of these things work? I mean, I understand the approach "learn to drive the wheel", but I personally like to know "what is under the hood."

For instance, I would like to be able to diagnose what is happening right now, and how it relates to the practices. From reading the AYP books (and I've read them all), I can say:
"Oh, I feel mildly discomfortable, I should self-pace",

Which really isn't a diagnosis. But with an appropriate theoretical background I could maybe conclude one of the two following (fictional) situations:

(a) "Oh, this is just the (erm...) absorption of prana by the sushuma nadi (APS), which I have read can happen when the Root Chakra opens as a result of SBP, and continuing DM should help stabilize it into inner silence."

(b) "Oh, this is excessive absorption of prana by the sushuma, which I have read can happen if the inward direction of energy is not balanced with the outward direction. I should stop DM and do physical exercise."

Notice of course I'm making up these terms. Notice also that the two courses of action are incompatible. But with all the 4000+ years of practices, as an accomplished science I expect that yoga should have a proper language and theory that allows one to make inferences on given data (illustrated by (a) and (b) above). My question is: what is this language, and how can I learn the theory?

(For instance, if you check out the Insight Tradition, there you will find "maps of progress" detailing a range of experiences that the meditator may come across, and how they fit into the overall scheme of practices. Of course Yoga is more complex as it adds explicit energy development to the scheme of practices, while insight meditation aims exclusively at the union of subject and object)

Bruno


yogani

USA
5198 Posts

Posted - Feb 28 2010 :  3:52:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Bruno:

Theories and philosophies are pretty easy to come by, all devised from particular points of view based on someone's experience. Not necessarily yours, which will be the same in some respects and unique in others.

For this reason, in AYP, we try to keep theory to a minimum, providing basic milestones indicating the emergence of the abiding inner silence and energetic components of spiritual development, and the joining of these in unity. How these components may be experienced along the way on each of our paths may vary.

The experiential maps are pretty easy once practices are underway and symptoms of purification and opening are occurring. Theories will either be confirmed or set aside based on our direct experience. The ultimate scripture is in us.

What is less simple is mapping practices in a way that will be useful for many practitioners. That has been the main focus in AYP.

The assumption is that if the experience can be delivered through effective practices, then the theories will be self-evident, and they will vary somewhat depending on the pattern of unfoldment each of us is undergoing. That is why AYP does not present a precise experiential map. My map and your map may be a little different. Recognizing that is step #1 in providing something useful for a wide range of practitioners.

If there is something theoretical in AYP (and perhaps a bit revolutionary), it is that the human nervous system is regarded to be the center of all spiritual development, and all systems, philosophies, theories and maps are derived from that single truth. Absolutely no one is left out. The systems, philosophies, theories and maps may vary depending on culture, religion, and the particular process of unfoldment occurring, but the human nervous system remains at the center always. In recognizing this and taking it to heart, the practitioner can be freed from a lot of unnecessary baggage that may be taken on in the form of, you guessed it, systems, philosophies, theories and maps!

Sounds like good things are happening there, and in relatively short order. Continue to self-pace as needed to maintain steady progress over time. Remember, practices are not all or nothing. Practice times can be adjusted incrementally to find your balance. That is putting practice in front of theory for best results.

All the best!

The guru is in you.

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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Feb 28 2010 :  4:30:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Bruno

Thanks for sharing your experience.

quote:
I was wondering
(1) what is happening exactly?



Well - from here it looks like this:
Increased purification and a great increase in ecstatic conductivity. Not to worry, but it is wise to self-pace now (as you have already suggested). You made two practice enhancements in a short time, and as you may know from reading Yoganis books AYP advises to be stable for a good while (weeks, months, years even) before adding new practices. How long was your pranayama session by the way?


quote:
(2) when should I resume practice? Should I wait for these surges to settle down or should I do DM anyway? Should I drop the solar centering enhancement?



Yes. Drop the solar enhancement. In my experience, when in overload, it is always beneficial to keep up at least a small amount of Deep Meditation. If you did 15 min before all this happened, you may try to sit for 10 min (or 5 even). Your troubles are probably a result of the solar enhancement followed too quickly by the pranayama. Here - the choice would have been to start with the pranayama (this is the first practice we usually add after the DM) and then wait for months befor adding anything else. DM cultivats both inner silence and ecstatic conductivity, while as pranayama stiumlates the latter.

Deep Meditation also soothes energy overloads, so it is always good to try and keep at least a few minutes of it up twice a day.

Also - 2 minutes of pranayama might be good to secure the already risen energy in the route it is best that it travels.....that between the root and the brow (Ajna)

quote:
Also I have a question for Yogani: How about the theory behind how all of these things work?


I know you are asking Yogani, but just a comment:
The thing that is behind all of these things.....is not a theory. It is reality. And though mind will always find it tempting to try and grasp its workings, the only time it comes close to being totally impacted by it is when it becomes quiet. And even then words will not convey truth. Only the taste of it....the direct experience of it....will satisfy. Inner silence knows what it is doing....it is completely independent of our minds knowledge at any given time.

This is great news, since we then can concentrate on practicing wisely and concistently and surrender the rest to inner silence.

So ....ultimately Yoga is about transcending any theory....living in actual freedom beyond what the mind can imagine.

Just my Norwegian krone :)

Thanks again for posting and good luck with your practices
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Feb 28 2010 :  4:32:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your beautiful answer Yogani

We crossposted
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manigma

India
1065 Posts

Posted - Mar 01 2010 :  04:42:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit manigma's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by brunoloff
(For instance, if you check out the Insight Tradition, there you will find "maps of progress" detailing a range of experiences that the meditator may come across, and how they fit into the overall scheme of practices. Of course Yoga is more complex as it adds explicit energy development to the scheme of practices...

Even if some maps exist, they don't belong to you; they cannot be applicable to you. Jesus says something -- that is about his own inner journey; that may not be your route at all. Every individual enters into the inner world differently, uniquely, because every individual stands on a certain spot where no one else stands; every individual is unique.

You can feel your own path -- and certain happenings inside, so that you know where you are, where you are moving, whether you are moving or not, whether you are nearing your goal or not.

Each individual's subjectivity is so different that maps cannot be made, and each individual's growth is so unique that milestones cannot be made, and each individual follows such different labyrinths that you will need somebody who is tremendously alert, aware, enlightened to help you on each step. Otherwise from each step there is a possibility of getting lost.

And the greatest problem is: when you lose the outer world you are left utterly alone. And you will not be able to make any distinction between what is fact and what is fiction. The boundaries between fact and fiction start dissolving.

There will be nobody to agree or disagree. How will you know what is fact and what is fiction? If you see Jesus in your meditations, how will you know whether he has really appeared or you have simply been dreaming? That is the problem. And one can easily get lost in one's own fictions, and to be lost in one's own fictions is madness: that is the danger on the inner journey. You will need somebody who can be present in your innerness. - Osho


So maps are not required really but you need a master or intense faith/bhakti in this journey. Yogani ji and this forum are great for that.

You are lucky
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brunoloff

Netherlands
47 Posts

Posted - Mar 03 2010 :  08:02:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit brunoloff's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello all :-)

So I've resumed doing 1m SBP and 5m DM. Dissolution progresses at a fast but much steadier pace. Ecstasy is still there, up the root through the spine into the third eye over and over again, and then down again seemingly throughout everywhere else in the body. Intensely upwards through the thin inside, and then downwards more evenly through the wide outside.

Thank you for your comments, I'll keep you posted :-)

With regards to theory, I have to say I both agree and disagree with what you wrote. On one hand I agree, because:

1) It is clear that different people have different experiences on their meditative path, and that
2) It is very difficult... no, even impossible to predict beforehand what those experiences might be.

So it would be pointless to try and devise a "theory" that could, given an arbitrary person, say "you're gonna have this and that experience", "this is going to be what YOUR MAP will look like". That I agree.

However, let's make an analogy with a scientific theory, say, medicine. It does exist as a theory and it is very useful to have. However, we don't expect that "medicine" will be able to say, given an arbitrary person "you're gonna have this and that disease". And the fact that we can't say beforehand if John will have appendicitis, for example, if John DOES happen to have appendicitis, we will be able to say:
(a) that what he has is called appendicitis,
(b) whether what he has is caused by a bacterial infection or some other cause, and
(c) what can be done about it.
Heck, our knowledge of theory of medicine is so advanced that we could probably even come up with a method, supported by THEORY, to intentionally cause John to have appendicitis, if we so did wish. We know the sort of bacteria that could be injected into the right place in a way that could do the trick. We don't know this because we've done the experiment, we know this because we understand the theory that explains appendicitis.

So you see, an eventual Yoga-theory, in my view, should have three aspects:
(a) an encyclopedic atlas of yogic experience, (as medicine has for diseases)
(b) a uniform, consistent and (as much as possible) complete mental model of how these experiences arise, (i.e., a mental model of the causal aspect behind it, in medicine this is "infections are caused by bacteria", "AIDS corresponds to that virus", etc)
(c) a set of methodologies that cause these experiences to happen, along with an explanation, within the mental model, of why these practices do what they claim to do (in medicine, "we give antibiotics to cure the infection, and this works because it kills the bacteria")

Notice that these (a, b, c) correspond with the appendicitis example above.

I think such a volume of Yoga-theory would be really beneficial. I even suspect that all this information already exists. Maybe disguised as theological philosophy.

And yogani, let me personally tell you that I believe that this is the direction for a "spiritual science" to go. You see, I absolutely love the AYP series for its very no-bullsh*t, pragmatical and practical approach. AYP is a collection of methods. Solid, good, powerful methods.

However, if we where to compare AYP to a scientific discipline, and, being both scientists, we are certainly in a good position to do this, we would find that AYP is to a modern field of science as, say, 18th-Century Science is to modern thermodynamics. 18th-Century Science was, like most science before this time, very practically oriented. Unlike any science before its time, however, with the widespread use of steam-power, 18th-Century Scientists, which we romantically call "Inventors", could device very powerful mechanisms to do very powerful tasks. There was, however, no solid theoretical framework behind all the steam-powered inventions, until, say, thermodynamics was invented.

It happened in a similar way in the 19th century, when the production of gas discharges and X-rays was already possible by very refined methods. Yet, there was no mental model of the particle-wave duality that could explain what these methods did and "to what" they did it exactly (was it waves, was it particles?).

This is like AYP: the meditative technology is the most powerful that I have found anywhere. The approach is pragmatical and experimentalist. However, if we where to think of the AYP writings as the manuals for a possible scientific discipline, we are still way back in 18th century thermodynamics or 19th century microphysics :-)

So where is this theory? Where is the unifying mental model? Where is the encyclopedia of yogic experiments?

I think Yoga needs all this in order to become a modern science. I'm also convinced that such a theory can be found in the yogic scriptures somewhere. I hear whispers saying "bindu-dot", "nada-sound", "50 mantrikas", of which I briefly read but know nothing. This would be an example of a "mental model". I can also think of "the 20 jhanic states" described by the Theravada tradition (Four jhanas, The Divine Abodes, etc), as an example of encyclopedic nature.

While I agree that "mental models" are not "Direct Experience" (except in the sense that we have direct experience of these mental models as such), I have also learned not to underestimate the practical value of mental models.

The Scientific Method is just one aspect of Science: Yoga is not a science until we have a complete clarification and demystification of such a theory, as well as an exhaustive encyclopedic catalogue of yogic experience.

So Yogani, if you would indulge me, after such a long and carefully written post :-) :
      Would you reconsider writing such a book? Do you see value in it, either way, and if not why not? And now that I've explained what I mean by "theory" and why I want more of it, could you provide references for such theoretical knowledge?

Kindly yours,
Bruno

Edited by - brunoloff on Mar 03 2010 08:10:36 AM
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yogani

USA
5198 Posts

Posted - Mar 03 2010 :  11:47:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by brunoloff

So Yogani, if you would indulge me, after such a long and carefully written post: Would you reconsider writing such a book? Do you see value in it, either way, and if not why not? And now that I've explained what I mean by "theory" and why I want more of it, could you provide references for such theoretical knowledge?


Hi Bruno:

Yes, I certainly see the value in building a framework of theoretical knowledge on human spiritual transformation. But it is not a one person job. Not even close. It would be like asking the Wright Brothers to document the theory of aeronautics, clearly an impossibility. But they did demonstrate that airplanes can fly, and it was more than enough. That work started the revolution in aviation. This is what I hope AYP can help do in applied spiritual science.

Building an evolving and ongoing science with a solid theoretical foundation is a job for the worldwide scientific community. This is actually addressed with some clarity here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3267
There is quite a lot of research work going on already, albeit, not very focused or organized at this time. It is evolving, and accelerating...

No one person could devise a comprehensive theory of medicine, or aeronautics, or electronics. Invariably, a few demonstrated key principles in practice, and then many were inspired to build on that, both theoretically and practically. And it keeps going on indefinitely. This is the way of science.

So if you are interested in applied spiritual science, the topic link above offers some interesting pathways to follow up on, hopefully not at the expense of your daily practice.

Further suggestions on how to inspire and activate the scientific community could be posted there. All suggestions are welcome, especially those that are followed up with action. Don't expect me to do it all. I am only one researcher and author in the vast field of human spiritual transformation. It will take a concerted effort by the scientific community to carry it forward.

All the best!

The guru is in you.

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manigma

India
1065 Posts

Posted - Mar 03 2010 :  12:50:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit manigma's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Through AYP, Yogani Ji is already doing what you are asking.

But a perfect manual for Enligtenment seems impossible.

I believe that science will sooner or later absorb those religions that go up to the fifth body, because science will be able to reach up to the atman (soul).

But there is no hope of science reaching to the seventh body (Nirvanic sharir), though there is a possibility of its going up to the sixth.

Religion alone can grasp the cosmic. Hence, up to the atman, the self, science will have no trouble. Difficulties start with the Brahman -- the cosmic self. I do not think science will ever be able to grasp the Brahman, because then it will have to leave its specialization. And the moment it leaves its specialization it no longer remains science. It will then be as generalized and vague as religion. So with the help of science we can travel along to the fifth body. At the sixth science will be lost, and the seventh is impossible for it because all of its search is focused only upon life.

In Search of the Miraculous vol. 2 - Osho
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Holy

796 Posts

Posted - Mar 03 2010 :  2:04:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Holy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

while reading this thread the same words from Osho came to my mind. Then the last post =P

@brunoloff

What you want already exists in some varieties and systems. If you read from different sources, you will have a good amount of informtion about different kinds of effects that can occur.

But to bring this to the level you are talking about, needs many many people practicing and reporting first hand. Like mass studies. But there is no mass who feels attracted to this kind of thing at the present moment in our dominant timespace-reality.

What you say for sure exists in full detail already in other timespaces right now. And despite science, you can access this information directly by your own.

When it comes to some of your experiences, my body shows the same kind of reactions (spine, front, penis, perineum, calming of extacy --> voidlike etc.), which come and go.

Some sources where you find more information about cause-effect of practices, are:

Tibetan tantric systems and books like: the clear light of bliss or inner fire (lama Yeshe) or the 6 yogas of Naropa.

Tao Yoga from Mantak Chia.

Kundalini Yoga, the science of prana from Sivananda.

Generally the classical books like Shiva Samhita, Gheranda Samhita, Hatha Yoga Pradipika.

Some studies the way you would like very much come from Charles W. Leadbeater and Arthur Powell about the different suptle bodies, the chakras and their relationships within the bodies etc.

Happy reading and contributing after your own going through.

And not to forget to practice parallely. Otherwise you spend some years (like me) with just reading and not knowing what to do or where to start.

Most of the stuff I've read made sense years later after my own experiences. Before you just read and think you know, but you just believe you understand/know.

And yeah, as scientific yogas claims are, there are levels that transcend mind and logic(where it actually starts getting good =P), so the limits of science are obvious right from the start too.
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brunoloff

Netherlands
47 Posts

Posted - Mar 03 2010 :  5:41:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit brunoloff's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all for you replies and references. I guess I have a lot to entertain myself with :-D

Yoga is amazing, everyday I will have something incredible happen. Ever since I took up yoga it's like amazing day after amazing day, non-stop. And it all feels so natural and relaxed...

Yogani I will take those ideas of yours on applied spiritual science as a personal challenge to be integrated with my future career :-)

Holy I will certainly contribute with whatever I can :-D

Thank you all for making this community :-)

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riptiz

United Kingdom
741 Posts

Posted - Mar 14 2010 :  11:46:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit riptiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,
Most reading on cause and effects of yoga and Tai Chi are simply theoretical and very little scientifically proven to the satisfaction of scientists.As it's all Quantum physics based I think that the information of ancient knowledge was recorded in the only way that the sages could conceive it or explain it in any way at all.A lot like fables and stories. Much of the original writings on Christianity were believed to have been destroyed by the Vatican to fit their truth.Simply so that the power of truth was not allowed in the general publics hands.I am sure that any that slipped the net simply escaped because those auditing the information did no understand the significance of what they were reading.Until science takes a serious study then there will be no way of stating that a+b =c.The studies being taken of the Divine Sound is an attempt to scientifically prove the cause and effects of listening to it. Until scientists deem the studies of yoga important enough we will have to practice to obtain our own truth and read books for theoretical information.
L&L
Dave
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