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Zaelithe
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 07 2021 : 11:21:04 AM
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I had not got on well with Advaita in the past - I found it rather joyless and negatory. I followed a link on another thread here on AYP and came across the works of Rupert Spira. Having read and listed to a lot of his stuff I have really appreciated the clarity and uncomplicated nature of what he says. I feel like I have reached some new understandings that go beyond the intellectual (more like knowings). However, it has thrown up some knotty issues and I really want to try to marry together AYP teachings with the (limited) understanding of awareness/consciousness that has arisen.
I’m going to have to use an analogy for this - so I’m going to go with the ocean or water being the whole of awareness and each of us being an individual thimbleful of that whole temporarily appearing in a container (body/thimble). Advaita seems to suggest that when we die, that thimble dissolves and we return to the ocean of awareness - nothing lost but no longer an individual self. I can go with that.
How then does this marry with AYP teaching that we are often working through obstructions and impurities that may have carried over from previous lives - or that some of us come more prepared for a ‘faster path’ as we come with learning/experience from earlier incarnations? If we lose the self at death and unify with the whole, how can we reincarnate with aspects of the self already in place from previous lives? I can’t quite grasp the recognition of unity and dissolution of the self alongside what seems to be ongoing (I get that time doesn’t exist/work that way) incarnations that retain some part of self - even if it is spiritual knowledge or understanding. Can anyone shine a light for me on this one? |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2021 : 1:53:58 PM
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Hi Zaelithe
quote:
Originally posted by Zaelithe
Advaita seems to suggest that when we die, that thimble dissolves and we return to the ocean of awareness - nothing lost but no longer an individual self.
The 'disolving' doesn't have to wait till the time of our death. When we reach the stage of unity, we lose the boundaries between the self and the rest of the ocean.
quote:
Originally posted by Zaelithe
how can we reincarnate with aspects of the self already in place from previous lives?
This is something that puzzles me too.
I think I can see that newly born come into this world with some personality tendencies. It is easier for me to put them down to genetics (again, I think I can trace them to a relative of the baby e.g. a granny.)
It makes more sense to me that we have a collective baggage to clean through, than that some not-biologically-related dead person is bringing unsettled scores into a new life.
I don't really know. Look forward to hearing other views on this subject. |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2021 : 2:57:48 PM
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Hi,
some texts say (don't have a specific reference now) that dying is not automatically the way to the ocean. As long as you are still in the cycle of death and rebirth you will carry on not your physical body (what is often referred to as the self), but your inner obstructions or karma or samskaras. Often these inner obstructions are said to be in some kind of etheric body or call it as you like, which you will still carry on to the next rebirth. It is a more subtle self and also the cause for the form of more grosser selfes or bodies.
Only if you clear all the obstructions that are on these subtler selfs or bodies, the ultimate dissolving takes place as BlueRaincoat said quote:
The 'disolving' doesn't have to wait till the time of our death. When we reach the stage of unity, we lose the boundaries between the self and the rest of the ocean.
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By deep meditation you are going straight into the core of this process. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2021 : 3:09:40 PM
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Hi all,
The teachings of Advaita Vedanta are not that we merge with the ocean at the time of death, but rather at the time of spiritual awakening. Or, more accurately, that with spiritual awakening, comes the realisation that we were never separate from the ocean in the first place. We simply thought we were.
Death is simply the falling away of the physical body. Not much else changes, except for the fact that we have to let go of a great many things very quickly if we have not let them go already whilst we were alive. So, it can be a shock to the system, and one which can hit some people harder than others.
The subtle nervous system is not affected by death, so stored karmic tendencies (vasanas and samskaras) are still in place. We can get a glimpse of this when we notice that certain children have a very high degree of spiritual insight and aptitude, even if their parents and other biological relatives do not. And this can be the case, even if their social environment does not encourage it. So, neither nature or nurture apply.
Christi |
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Zaelithe
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2021 : 3:27:45 PM
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Thank you for these responses. I was clumsy in my wording but despite that I think I have received good answers! So, it would seem then, that the illusion of separation persists beyond death if one has not fully awakened spiritually - that some form of personhood remains? Thus as Christi says ‘not much else changes’ and death does not bring the merging with the ocean. Is this then the Karmic wheel upon which we must reincarnate until we come to full awareness that we were never separate in the first place? Also, can one come to full awareness in the disembodied state after death, with a subtle nervous system - or does that have to happen in an embodied state? |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2021 : 5:45:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The subtle nervous system is not affected by death, so stored karmic tendencies (vasanas and samskaras) are still in place. We can get a glimpse of this when we notice that certain children have a very high degree of spiritual insight and aptitude, even if their parents and other biological relatives do not. And this can be the case, even if their social environment does not encourage it. So, neither nature or nurture apply.
That would be one way to explain aptitude that is not traceable to parents. It is not the only. In a scientific mode of thinking, this aptitude owing to reincarnation is a hypothesis.
I have a vague recollection that Yogani wrote somewhere that he believed in reincarnation because there were things that he could not explain in other way. The fact that you can't think of another explanation could also mean that there are facts that you don't yet know.
My take on this (based of course on my abilities, which are by definition limited) is that we are in belief territory here. We do not know for certain what happens when a person dies.
Does anyone here actually remember a past life?
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2021 : 7:09:01 PM
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Hi Zaelithe,
quote:
Is this then the Karmic wheel upon which we must reincarnate until we come to full awareness that we were never separate in the first place?
Yes, that is what is meant by the karmic wheel of life and death. Another name for the karmic wheel is samsara, or the ocean of suffering (cheerful name ).
quote:
Also, can one come to full awareness in the disembodied state after death, with a subtle nervous system - or does that have to happen in an embodied state?
There is a saying in yoga that if the angels wish to become enlightened, they have to descend into human form, because they cannot progress spiritually in the higher realms. Whether it is true or not, I don't know?
Hi BlueRC
quote:
That would be one way to explain aptitude that is not traceable to parents. It is not the only. In a scientific mode of thinking, this aptitude owing to reincarnation is a hypothesis.
I have a vague recollection that Yogani wrote somewhere that he believed in reincarnation because there were things that he could not explain in other way. The fact that you can't think of another explanation could also mean that there are facts that you don't yet know.
At a certain stage on the path, it becomes possible to see things that people do not ordinarily see. So, for example we can see the chakras and nadis of the subtle nervous system. It also becomes possible to see the souls of people leaving their body when they die and new souls entering their bodies at birth. It is possible to communicate with people after they have died and before they are born. It is also possible to visit the heavenly realms, and communicate with the beings there and to return to the physical realm. We become able to see, hear and feel beings that do not have a physical form.
So, our understanding of what happens after someone leaves their physical body, becomes broader, and is not only limited to knowledge gained from the five physical senses.
Usually this question of reincarnation is not important, but it can be important at times. For example, if someone is nearing the end of their life and is wondering if it is worth practicing yoga or not? Knowing that things do not end when they die can help them determine what to do, or not do with their remaining months or years.
Christi
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2021 : 7:46:13 PM
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Thank you, Christi. One further question, if I may.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
At a certain stage on the path, it becomes possible to see things that people do not ordinarily see. So, for example we can see the chakras and nadis of the subtle nervous system. It also becomes possible to see the souls of people leaving their body when they die and new souls entering their bodies at birth. It is possible to communicate with people after they have died and before they are born. It is also possible to visit the heavenly realms, and communicate with the beings there and to return to the physical realm. We become able to see, hear and feel beings that do not have a physical form.
Is your assertion based on what is written in various scriptures or are you speaking from direct experience? I don't mean to put you on the spot. My question springs from a wish to hear a "horse's mouth" account.
I am certain that the authors of various scriptures wrote in good faith, but they also might have stated beliefs rather than hard facts. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2021 : 8:17:16 PM
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Hi BlueRC,
Yes, that is all based on my own experience. I have not read much about these things. In the grand scheme of things, it is all maya, or scenery, the play of the universe. Ultimately enlightenment is not about going to heaven, or about escaping the cycle of birth and death, or about going anywhere. It is about being right here, which is where we always are, and being free from suffering. Or in Sanskrit: Jivan Mukti.
Christi |
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Dogboy
USA
2195 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2021 : 03:06:06 AM
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| Great topic |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2021 : 07:02:10 AM
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Yep. Great topic. I tend to be with BlueRaincoat on this one, I too get the impression that rebirth takes place within the same - I would put it as - 'family of souls' which contains that family's genetics. After all they have family karma to work out and one can often clearly see inherited tendencies and habits.
There are mention of masters that are actually working with Beings that are not on the physical plane, both Yogis and Buddhas. That would imply that such Beings too stand a chance of awakening.
My last point would be the matter of new souls "entering" the body at birth, that is the common terminology used and I do not mean to split hairs but that would put the physical first and the spiritual after. Recently I heard Rupert Spira (I believe) talk of the soul reconstructing the body and that sounded more correct to me.
And I too would agree we are wading into belief systems here
Sey
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Edited by - SeySorciere on Oct 08 2021 07:04:31 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2021 : 10:36:58 AM
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Hi Sey and all,
Yes, people have vasanas, or tendencies. And these tendencies are stored in the subtle nervous system. This can be seen when we are working with people who have left their physical body, helping them to transition to the next stage on their journey. They have the same tendencies (desires, fears, hopes, aspirations) as they had when they were alive. And people will be drawn towards others who have similar tendencies as them.
So, birth is not just random. People are drawn towards families with whom they have a similarity, or a connection.
But there is no need to believe any of this. In yoga it is not necessary to believe anything at all. We can simply practice and gain the fruits of our practice. The Buddha once said: "Do not believe anything, especially the things that I tell you". Personally I have found that to be the best advice in most cases. Then knowledge (jnana) comes when it comes. But it will be knowledge based on direct experience.
Having said that, there are times when belief can be useful. For example if we want to climb a mountain, but we don't know if we are strong enough. If we believe that we can do it, then we have more chance of making it to the top. So, belief can carry us forwards in situations where we don't have knowledge. There are certain stages on the path where we have to have faith, because we don't have knowledge. A bit like walking into the light, without knowing if we will survive.
Christi |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2021 : 11:15:02 AM
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Good topic
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quote:
The Buddha once said: "Do not believe anything, especially the things that I tell you".
Indeed |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2021 : 12:17:07 PM
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Thank you for your replies, Christi.
And good to hear your views on this, guys.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2021 : 2:34:10 PM
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