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 Discussions on AYP Deep Meditation and Samyama
 Letting go of the mantra
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Vayu

USA
40 Posts

Posted - Aug 20 2011 :  9:23:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes thats what I meant by (1). Rephrasing it would be:
1. Simply beginning to repeat the mantra actively again.
2. doing (1) and keeping attention at the very front of the mantra's sound. Kinda like how the blinking cursor moves as we type, except here, the cursor is the awareness and the letters behind(to the left) it are the vibrations created by the mantra.

After what you said and me typing all that, yea I think (1) is probably the way to go. Lol... Thank you for your help and patience!

Edited by - Vayu on Aug 20 2011 9:43:25 PM
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Stillpool

USA
39 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2011 :  1:20:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:

quote:Originally posted by yogani

PS: If we notice that the mantra is rattling on by itself at some level in the mind, that is also a signal to easily bring our attention back to the mantra. The rattling on of our mind is not the mantra. Our attention easily with the mantra is the mantra.



I found that very insightful, thank you!

my experience is similar to emc, where the mind 'rattles' its own version of the mantra, and I could not tell if that's still 'easily favoring it' or not, but that made it more clear.
quote:





Could someone say more about this? I'm confused. I thought letting the mantra "repeat itself" in the mind was the point of DM. Isn't letting the mantra repeat itself in the mind "effortless repetition?"

How will I know the difference between my mind automatically favoring or rattling the mantra and my mind actively choosing to repeat the mantra mentally?

Thanks.
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woosa

United Kingdom
382 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2011 :  1:47:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Stillpool

When you are meditating you want that mentally picking it up as if you are reading or counting. However, - very important - you want to easily favour the mantra - there is no forcing involved. So when you pick up the mantra it could be clear, fuzzy, fast, slow etc. You don't control it, you just keep picking it up, at whatever level it is at, when you notice you are off it.

So with repetition you will go deeper until the mantra refines into samadhi - pure bliss conciousness.


Edited by - woosa on Nov 20 2011 1:53:30 PM
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Stillpool

USA
39 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2011 :  3:18:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks woosa.

May I ask another?

If we are supposed to actively choose to return to the repetition of the mantra when off it, then through that active choice won't we make some decision as to the tempo/sound/rate/pronunciation/etc of the mantra? I mean, if I forget it, then choose to repeat it again, wont my choice imply some sort of decision as to how it sounds in my mind? Doesn't this contradict "hearing it as it is?"

thanks
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woosa

United Kingdom
382 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2011 :  4:12:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Stillpool

No you may not ask another . Just kidding.

You just let go into the level of relaxation/ stillness that you are at. It's about letting go too. That will come when you continue with the easy repetitions of the mantra.

You are just repeating the mantra at the level that you are at. So if you are very deep it could be a mumur, or a feeling. If you are not you could just be repeating it at 'normal mental volume' or louder. It doesn't matter. You just let go into the process and the mantra will be repeated at the level that is needed.

There is no choosing the level of fuzzyness of the mantra. You just do the easy process of picking up the mantra when you are off it. If you are analysing or choosing how to say the mantra you are not letting go. Just easily repeat the mantra.

Some days can be loud and fast, other a distant murmur or feeling in your body/mind. It doesn't matter because that is the purification that is happening in the moment.

If you have any more questions I will permit another .
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Stillpool

USA
39 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2011 :  5:08:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you woosa. You have been more than helpful.

So, there's no point in analyzing, right? My mind will pick it up as needed at the level it is at. No need to worry or try to make it fuzzy or clear or whatever. It is only possible to think it on the level that I am at. Is that right? If it becomes just a pulse, just a buzz somewhere in the distance, I don't try to make it clear, I just stay with it at that level...? And if, sometimes, it just doesn't seem to go deeper than a normal sounding pronunciation of the mantra, that's ok too, I just stay with it...?
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woosa

United Kingdom
382 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2011 :  5:30:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, that all sounds good! Just keep going back to the mantra when your attention is off it. Nothing else is needed.
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Stillpool

USA
39 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2011 :  10:20:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, let's say (and I've had this happen) that we sit down to meditate and we start the mantra and then nothing happens but thoughts and it seems impossible to think the mantra, or better, it doesn't come by itself. It's just not there. Should we force it, although gently, or just let the thoughts happen, waiting for them to subside and the mantra reappear?

Thanks
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AumNaturel

Canada
687 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2011 :  11:24:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Stillpool, have a look at the lessons, starting with lesson 13 which introduces the method of mantra meditation.
Edit to add: I checked back to your original post and remembered that you have been using it for some time now already. The lessons reassure us that whatever happens or fails to happen is not a guideline for altering our practice, and can lead us off the path, which is to gently favor the practice, and to self-pace accordingly.

Edited by - AumNaturel on Nov 20 2011 11:51:55 PM
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kaserdar

91 Posts

Posted - Nov 21 2011 :  10:57:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by woosa
When you are meditating you want that mentally picking it up as if you are reading or counting. However, - very important - you want to easily favour the mantra - there is no forcing involved.

So with repetition you will go deeper until the mantra refines into samadhi - pure bliss conciousness.



I got a bit confused after this reply. Please correct me If I'm wrong but What I understand from Yogani regarding "rattling on" is that if mantra goes "by itself" without our attention while we are thinking some other thoughts, is the rattling on. So when we realize this is happening we put our attention back to that repetition so it is not rattling on any more:)

My experience is the same as Carson's from his post here http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#84513

quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I simply have thoughts overlaying the mantra. When this happens and I notice it I follow the instruction of favoring the mantra and redirect my focus back to the mantra and let go of the thoughts...



What I have been doing is just turning attention back to that effortless automatic repetion. Isn't it correct or this is the rattling on and time to pick up the repetition of saying the mantra as woosa said above?

Thank you
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woosa

United Kingdom
382 Posts

Posted - Nov 22 2011 :  1:26:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kaserdar

Sorry to confuse you. I have never had the mantra rattle on by itself, so what I said will conflict.

Just ignore what I said. Most people do anyway .
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Yogaman

USA
295 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2013 :  11:24:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry to open up this old topic, but had to chime in and say that after reading the DM book many times as well as listening to it in audiobook format many times, I was under the same impression as both Katrina and Carson. I'm so glad for this discussion clarifying things.

As Carson mentioned, there's definitely a sense from the text that the "coming back to the mantra" is important, and that would require "letting it go". From what I gathered from this discussion, a better wording might perhaps be "coming back to the repetition of the mantra". In my mind, the definition of the word mantra is the phrase itself, but perhaps it's the repetition of the phrase. Either way, I'm glad to know that I should be continuously repeating the mantra ("back to back") and returning to the repetition when I notice I am off.

For the past 3 months I've been practicing as Carson & Katrina mentioned: mantra (phrase), natural pause (1-3 seconds), mantra, repeat. As mentioned earlier, at least it wasn't doing anything harmful and I've established a firm twice-daily practice so nothing lost :)
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Christi

United Kingdom
3753 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2013 :  04:24:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Yogaman,

Yes, you won't have done any harm doing it that way.

The important thing is that there is nothing in the instructions about deliberately letting the mantra go. As you repeat it over and over, you will find at some point that your attention has wandered away without any active intention on your part. When you realize that has happened, you bring your attention back to the mantra. That's all.

Christi
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apatride

New Caledonia
94 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2013 :  05:55:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit apatride's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Before I was repeating the mantra out loud (but in my head), would lost it by wandering in surgeing thoughts, then focus back on mantra and repeat it again.

Since a few days it's more like I ignite the thought "i am", then I follow the thought going here and there, like there is a sphere of thoughts inside and around my head where it can travel. From left to right, bottom to up, etc. When I lost it, I just pick it again and so it goes.

For me this way of doing seems effortless, more natural, deeper and does not give me these head pressures. It's just noticing the thought "i am" as it's gravitating around me, not grabbing it then thinking it on repeat.
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Yogaman

USA
295 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2013 :  2:40:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I guess my question boils down to this: what sort of pause should there be between each "I Am"? I realize it will morph as we repeat it, but there has to be a starting pace. Up till now, I would let the mantra "ring out" as a bell would do after it is struck. The impression I've gotten from this discussion is that it should be more like jumping jacks, in that you mentally say it and then immediately repeat.

In other words, prior method was: "I Am", pause of about 3 seconds, repeat. The gist I am getting is that it should be more like: "I Am", "I Am", "I Am", etc.

I'm very close to just recording an audio file demonstrating both so we can put this to rest permanently. I did the back-to-back method this morning, it will take some getting used to after the "pause" method I've been using.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2013 :  3:01:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
It's your rhythm, your easily favoring, your descent into stillness. Don't try to conform to someone else's notion of "easily favoring". Sometimes there will be a natural pause, sometimes it will be more back-to-back. Back-to-back can manifest itself in many different ways (tempo, clarity of mantra, how repetitions are strung together, etc.).Sometimes you will repeat the mantra multiple times, sometimes you will think it only once and be lost.

It's more of a feeling of surrender to the inward flow of stillness, than a rigid technique of sticking to a metronome. It's a dynamic process that dissoves into itself. It's not static. Less is more.

Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Apr 11 2013 6:40:38 PM
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jonesboy

USA
594 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2013 :  7:07:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Let it be, Let it be
Let it be, Let it be

Let the mantra be what it'll be.

The Beatles..
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Yogaman

USA
295 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2013 :  11:14:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Earlier in this thread, Yogani specifically said some techniques are not correct, so the "as you see fit" replies seem out of place. With two instructors having misinterpreted the technique, I think it's important to clarify it. Even if the pauses and repetitions change once you're underway, there should be an established starting rhythm to get us on track. Too many stories of people going years doing the wrong method. I don't want to be one of them :)
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maheswari

Lebanon
2391 Posts

Posted - Apr 12 2013 :  02:29:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Let it be, Let it be
Let it be, Let it be

Let the mantra be what it'll be.

The Beatles..

Haha
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Christi

United Kingdom
3753 Posts

Posted - Apr 12 2013 :  03:50:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Yogaman,

The mantra is repeated back to back as Yogani said above. That does not mean there is no space between one repetition and the next. When we speak, there are spaces between the words. The important point he was making in his reply to Katrine is that we do not think the mantra once, then let it fall into silence and then wait until we notice we are off it and then pick it up again.

So it isn't so much the space between one repetition and the next that is the important thing, it is the procedure. The space between each repetition will change as you are practicing, sometimes getting wider, and at other times disappearing completely as the mantra becomes a continuous stream of energy.

Christi
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kami

USA
920 Posts

Posted - Apr 12 2013 :  11:57:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Yogaman

Earlier in this thread, Yogani specifically said some techniques are not correct, so the "as you see fit" replies seem out of place. With two instructors having misinterpreted the technique, I think it's important to clarify it. Even if the pauses and repetitions change once you're underway, there should be an established starting rhythm to get us on track. Too many stories of people going years doing the wrong method. I don't want to be one of them :)



Hi Yogaman,

Your concerns are legitimate.

Although this has been discussed extensively, it never hurts to bring it up again.

There are two main aspects to the process:

1. Repitition: The mantra is repeated, yes. But not in a mindless "I Am, I Am.." string while simultaneously thinking of other things. The point of DM is to bring the mind to one-pointed focus, aka, dharana. The mantra takes on a rhythm of its own, and differently for each of us. It can be a short, staccato I Am, or a drawn out IIIII...Aaaaam.. What I find useful is (as Apatride says above) to follow the mantra with total attention. When the Am ends, there is a natural pause (that varies for all of us) and the mantra begins again. When mind wandering or incomplete focus is noticed, the mantra is brought back into focus again. Over time, I have found that the ability to "follow" or "stay with" the mantra increases. Thus, the number of repetitions decrease. On days when practices are "mind-y", there is lowered ability to stay with the mantra, and hence the number of repititions increase.

2. Quality: The mantra becomes fuzzy over time. In the beginning, it is clear and loud and well-enunciated. Then it gets softer and less well-enunciated. With continued practice, it can be picked up at a vibratory level. This becomes finer with practice, appearing as a faint vibration that gets even finer when followed, and dissolving at some point into awareness. Once again, (should this happen), as soon as mind activity returns and cessation/dissolution is noticed, the mantra is picked up (at the fuzzy level) and followed. The fuzziness evolves on its own and cannot be forced in my experience.

Hope this helps.

Kami
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Yogaman

USA
295 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2013 :  12:00:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Christi. That was the gist I got. It's easy to have doubts about doing things correctly for me, I tend to over-think stuff. I'm creeping up on 3 months of the AYP method and while I am noticing gentle changes, part of me wonders if I should be experiencing more. Thank you!
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Christi

United Kingdom
3753 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2013 :  06:12:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Yogaman

Thanks Christi. That was the gist I got. It's easy to have doubts about doing things correctly for me, I tend to over-think stuff. I'm creeping up on 3 months of the AYP method and while I am noticing gentle changes, part of me wonders if I should be experiencing more. Thank you!



Hi Yogaman,

You're welcome.
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Yogaman

USA
295 Posts

Posted - Apr 16 2013 :  11:57:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
kami,

Thanks for the tips, very helpful. It sounds like I've been doing the mantra correctly based on all the replies here.
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kami

USA
920 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2013 :  09:35:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Yogaman

kami,

Thanks for the tips, very helpful. It sounds like I've been doing the mantra correctly based on all the replies here.



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