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 Letting go of the mantra
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Anthem

1608 Posts

Posted - May 20 2011 :  2:54:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Tootsies,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the feedback!

A

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Bill R.

Canada
11 Posts

Posted - May 20 2011 :  11:57:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Katrine and Yogani: thank you so much for that articulate and detailed conversation. This forum is tremendously helpful and your dedication to keeping everything clear is inspiring.

Let the light shine!
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The_seeker

Canada
27 Posts

Posted - May 21 2011 :  11:29:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit The_seeker's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi guys,
After this discussion I'm not sure I'm doing the right technique. Sorry about repeating the same question, but I just want to make sure I'm on the path...
Does the mantra have to be repeated continuously, in a mechanic fashion like: ayam, ayam, ayam, etc., until it refines and fade away?...and when lost start doing the same thing in the same relaxed, mechanical way: ayam, ayam, etc., or I just have to mentally pronounce it in an easy way, relaxed, maby wait for some moments and when comfortable give another impulse: ayam...wandering around..ayam...etc...
Thank you
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - May 21 2011 :  4:52:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I have smile reading that

Suggest you do a few minutes of spinal breathing pranayama before starting DM. It helps to settle things down and gives a degree of calm which allows you to pick up the mantra in a more natural way.

It really doesn't matter how you pick the mantra up, it refines when it refines. Anytime you find you are wondering if you are doing things correctly during DM, just pick up the Mantra again.

Sometimes there are days when it seems hard, the mantra feels like it's being hammered out and other times when everything is gentle. The mantra can be slow or fast, however it happens.

It's a bit like eating a meal, it happens automatically, sometimes you nibble, sometimes chew and sometimes bolt the food down. It just happens as it happens, naturally, no right on wrong to it. When you realise you are no longer chewing, then go back to chewing. Sometimes you stop for long periods and forget all about the food or the eating, just somewhere else and then just gently notice the chewing again.
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The_seeker

Canada
27 Posts

Posted - May 23 2011 :  12:17:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit The_seeker's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Karl
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BuddhiHermit

United Kingdom
84 Posts

Posted - May 24 2011 :  06:14:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit BuddhiHermit's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Katrine for your descriptions.

I have been meditating for quite some time, and your explanation of our core in expression - "the presence" seems to be a better expression than "Truth in action", and is an excellent description of what I have previously heard of as "being Total".
Your method of easing into silence seems to be an interesting reflection on Patanjali's samyama, and it mirrors very similar practices in Zen, Buddhism, and Saivism.
I can also see that it is not the same as DM, but those that have a propensity to drift into silence, will start from anywhere.

Namaste
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - May 25 2011 :  04:17:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi BuddhiHermit

quote:
Thank you Katrine for your descriptions.

I have been meditating for quite some time, and your explanation of our core in expression - "the presence" seems to be a better expression than "Truth in action", and is an excellent description of what I have previously heard of as "being Total".
Your method of easing into silence seems to be an interesting reflection on Patanjali's samyama, and it mirrors very similar practices in Zen, Buddhism, and Saivism.
I can also see that it is not the same as DM, but those that have a propensity to drift into silence, will start from anywhere.

Namaste


Thanks for sharing this. You know.......over the past week I have laughed and laughed so many times....over the fact that I actually from the very start 5 years ago unknowingly managed to do the DM practice wrong. In the DM book there is a paragraph on page 29 under the heading "Thoughts and Mantra Together" that reads:

In some cultures, mantras are used in the background of the mind constantly in daily activity, always going on with whatever the people are doing. Deep meditation is not like that.

From this my blond mind got the idea that repeating the mantra back to back was not correct DM procedure. Even though the next sentences in the paragraph reads as follows:

"It is a specific practice we sit and do twice per day, letting go of all else. Then we go out in our daily life and forget about meditation and mantra. Whatever our life is in daily activity, that is what we do. This is mentioned because sometimes when people with a "mantra habit" learn deep meditation, they think that engaging in regular thought processes with the mantra in the background will be the same as deep meditation. It is not.

In the "Secrets of John Wilder" book, it is suggested to say the mantra with an "inward intention". John also speaks of how in DM we let go of the mantra at the same time as we are being with it (p. 40)

From this it is easy to see that we do actually repeat the mantra back to back
I was just being daft in understanding the instructions

Anyway - for whatever it is worth, when instructing people I always told them that the tempo of the repetitions didn't matter, that the only objective was to "gently come back to the mantra once we were off it". And that if thoughts were there to not push them away, but gently favor the mantra. The retreat in Toronto was the first time someone specifically asked about saying the mantra back to back......and so thanks to that, the misunderstanding in me was uncovered. It is really rather funny......and I am very very grateful

After the initial clunky fase when I started doing AYP DM some 5+ years ago had settled, there would always be space between the repitions of the mantra. Then eventually...and this happened about a year and a half ago....... it only took one repetition of the mantra....the mantra said once....before the falling inwards would happen, and so the way I see it today is that I was then with a refinement of the mantra. When "inwards" I was in a continuous vibration...or resonance of it.....not being aware that this itself was the mantra repeating itself.....back2back2back2back.......

Funny life isn't it.......and thank you life for taking care of me anyway, despite of the mistakes....

Anyway - because of my mistake in the beginning years, I must have cultivated a habit of Samyama without knowing it. So hey....maybe not so strange that a spontaneous habit of letting go would then form outside meditation. It was never intended.....I never said the mantra between meditation times....but the letting go in daily life happened anyway....

However - I could never do AYP Samyama for very long. I would always overload :).....maybe not so strange, eh? After all that "hidden" samyama.....


So again......please follow Yoganis instructions......it was never my intention to "modify" the DM procedure.

And as for:

quote:
I have been meditating for quite some time, and your explanation of our core in expression - "the presence" seems to be a better expression than "Truth in action", and is an excellent description of what I have previously heard of as "being Total".


Well......yes and no.
Because to me.....I have stopped talking about "presence"....."wholeness"....."bliss"...etc
Our core in expression is the presence...yes. But......I like your expression: being Total.
This resonates with me....because......being total actually means always being authentic. It does not mean "I am fully present and so I am enlightened now". It simply means...I can bear all my sides....all my strange ways....all my dishonesty....all my stubbornness, as long as my heart is truthful about it and unwise actions that happens from a place of blindness are set straight by being open and straight about it once the "mistakes" are seen. This is how I learned not to repeat "mistakes" - because of the stickiness in my heart that resulted from unwise actions. And stickiness in heart is the worst thing.....it clouds the potency of "the look"....and clarity is lost. Joy is lost too. Because deep down....we always know when we lie to ourselves. When we lie....all kinds of chatter starts inside....

So...when we are authentic, there is no inner fight. This is how presence comes through. And this is why comparing should not happen. Because it is not "how deep is the presence" that is the crux of the matter. It is the linear aspect that is important...in other words, always listen to inner dishonesty that creates unrest inside...and set it straight by being honest. First inside, and then outside will follow. Funny isn't it....that it is actually TIME that allows for deeper Now/presence. We cannot manipulate the deepening.....it is not in "our hands". But we can work on being as authentic about where we are at all times. We are ourselves then. Total. And in this relaxedness....in this inner peace.....life can flow.

So for me.....it is not about the presence anymore. Wallowing in my own presence (no matter how "wide" or "deep" it is) is not very beneficial.....or rather....it doesn't feel like the natural thing to do. Not natural like a tree is natural, if you know what I mean....

It is actually the action that is the crux of the matter. It is not the presence for the sake of the presence. The presence is there for the sake of the action.

Wise actions in a million forms can then continue to happen as it must.

And the Heart can go on smiling.




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yogani

USA
5183 Posts

Posted - May 26 2011 :  09:09:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Katrine:

Such a brave and beautiful sharing about your journey. Deeply moving. Thank you.

One thing is for sure. You are not a "forgetful mountain climber", and we are all the better for it.

The guru is in you.

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HathaTeacher

Sweden
382 Posts

Posted - May 26 2011 :  11:52:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff, Katrine, and Yaming,

the "hit - echo - fadeout" cycles sound like the long ditch-to-ditch journey between rajas (hit, too active) and tamas (fadeout, too passive); that's part of the learning, but as our balance gradually improves, the amplitude between the opposites shrinks, and the mind stays on track by and large within the same lane of sattva (beyond the push-pull game of the gunas).

I wouldn't actively alter the technique, just accept it in case things happen along the path. I favor Yogani's way of "favoring" it instead of pushing it too hard or letting it happen too passively.

Edited by - HathaTeacher on May 26 2011 12:04:33 PM
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krcqimpro1

India
329 Posts

Posted - May 27 2011 :  05:04:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Yogani and Katrine for the whole topic. When I first read Katrine's post, I thought I had wasted 5 precious years of my life, doing DM the wrong way, repeating the mantra "back-to-back", till I lost it to other thoughts, and on realising this, going back to repeating it "back-to-back". I am glad Yogani clarified, to my great relief. I re-read lesson 366. and this has also provided great relief, and re-assurance that everything I am doing, as per Yogani's lessons, are in fact quite correct. Thanks Yogani and Katrine, once again.

Krish
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BuddhiHermit

United Kingdom
84 Posts

Posted - May 27 2011 :  07:18:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit BuddhiHermit's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Katrine, and thanks for your response.

For a while there, I thought about appending this quote to my posts - "What is, is, and What ain't, ain't"
Now those words seem like a poor imitation of the life that already declares itself in expression every moment.

When I started on my path, my very first decision was that I would always honour self-honesty.
These days I call it "being ethical", and "having integrity", and sometimes "being a natural human" but I guess it's all authenticity by another name. One useful benefit is that it makes it extremely difficult to wallow.

I may be walking the plain in a different direction, but I prefer to widen my experience - it makes expression all the richer.

Namaste
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jun 09 2011 :  5:37:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Everyone

Just thought I would chime in with a few observations I have made since Katrine first started this topic as I have done a bit of experimentation and observation on the differences between saying the mantra "backtoback" and "letting go of the mantra."

What I have noticed is this.....

When saying the mantra "backtoback" I find that it is much easier to have thoughts overlapping the mantra. The mantra becomes mechanical (for me) and the thoughts slowly start to creep in on top of the mantra. Doing DM this way I do not seem to ever totally lose the mantra.

What I have noticed with dropping the mantra is that I "blank/black out" much easier and end up with no thoughts, no mantra and essentially no awareness either.

What I have found is optimal for me is "the middle ground" between these two approaches. I find that repeating the mantra but still leaving a few seconds of space between the repetitions seems to be ideal (for me). Doing it this way I find that it is rare when there are thoughts overlaying the mantra, and it is also rare when I completely lose awareness.

Just some observations from the field.

Love!


P.S> All that said however, I know that it is best not to dilute the DM practice with extra "rules" so my repeating of the mantra with a few seconds of silence in between repetitions is not a hard and fast rule, nor is it something I strive for. It is just an observation that leaving some space between repetitions (and the fact that I am doing "repetitions" is what makes this technique different from Katrine's "letting go of the mantra") seems to be optimal for me. I am not striving for this though... it is what seems to happen naturally here and seems to work the best....for me.
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kevincann

USA
335 Posts

Posted - Jun 09 2011 :  7:04:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Everyone

Just thought I would chime in with a few observations I have made since Katrine first started this topic as I have done a bit of experimentation and observation on the differences between saying the mantra "backtoback" and "letting go of the mantra."

What I have noticed is this.....

When saying the mantra "backtoback" I find that it is much easier to have thoughts overlapping the mantra. The mantra becomes mechanical (for me) and the thoughts slowly start to creep in on top of the mantra. Doing DM this way I do not seem to ever totally lose the mantra.

What I have noticed with dropping the mantra is that I "blank/black out" much easier and end up with no thoughts, no mantra and essentially no awareness either.

What I have found is optimal for me is "the middle ground" between these two approaches. I find that repeating the mantra but still leaving a few seconds of space between the repetitions seems to be ideal (for me). Doing it this way I find that it is rare when there are thoughts overlaying the mantra, and it is also rare when I completely lose awareness.

Just some observations from the field.

Love!


P.S> All that said however, I know that it is best not dilute the DM practice with extra "rules" so my repeating of the mantra with a few seconds of silence in between repetitions is not a hard and fast rule, nor is it something I strive for. It is just an observation that leaving some space between repetitions (and the fact that I am doing "repetitions" is what makes this technique different from Katrine's "letting go of the mantra") seems to be optimal for me. I am not striving for this though... it is what seems to happen naturally here and seems to work the best....for me.



Carson,

I deeply respect you for examining DM carefully in your own awareness and sharing these results with us.

Would you be so kind to let me paraphrase your results in my way of thinking, and then have you respond again?

If we mechanically repeat the mantra "harshly" with "ordinary awareness", the practice doesn't work.

If we repeat the mantra by letting the mantra "fall into the stillness", that's all well and good.. but that's not meditation, that's Samyama.. that's not DM.

So these two methods are contra-indicated.. as DM is a baseline practice designed to CAUSE stillness.. and gently stimulate and prompt purification... DM can't rely on these already existing, or it's not DM at all.

So the middle ground as you say is wise.

This easy repetition allows the ordinary mind to be present and to learn.. and keeps it from interfering. The spaces that naturally develop are the more subtle aspects of ourself taking the opportuity to sync up in communication with that normally too busy to notice ordinary awareness. This 'tension' .. this tickling .. this friction .. between 'outer' and 'inner' is what loosens up gunk and allows the silence to start forming.

I think that it would also be fair to say, that the boredom that the ordinary mind experiences, make it eager for sensation.. sensation that the more subtle layers of mind are eager to provide!

These factors are augmented by the energetic stimulation of the mantra itself, which I examined in my other post on DM in alternative.

Would this be a fair way to characterize your findings?

Thanks again for bringing up this topic.. I have zero doubt that a number of people still are confused.

Love,

Kev
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jun 09 2011 :  11:34:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kevin

quote:
Originally posted by kevincann

If we mechanically repeat the mantra "harshly" with "ordinary awareness", the practice doesn't work.


Well, I'm not quite sure what "ordinary awareness" is, and I still think that mechanical mantra repetition "works," I've just observed that it doesn't seem to work *as well* as when I leave a bit of space between repetitions is all. I'm sure that there is still purification happening (as the purification is essentially the result of the vibration of "i am") but it doesn't seem to cultivate as much inner silence simply because the mantra is never fully lost (for me).

quote:
Originally posted by kevincann

If we repeat the mantra by letting the mantra "fall into the stillness", that's all well and good.. but that's not meditation, that's Samyama.. that's not DM.


It seems that this method causes *too much* inner silence to be cultivated (for me). More then my nervous system can handle anyway. For example, at the last retreat Katrine and I instructed (in Toronto last month), I used this technique during the first meditation practice. For the majority of this practice one of the groundskeepers was cutting the grass on a "ride 'em lawn mower" directly outside the practice room window. I literally did not hear this even though at one point (I was told afterwards) the lawnmower shot a rock which hit the window directly behind me. Katrine told me after the meditation that my head was pretty much hanging at navel level. I was basically "out cold"..... no awareness. At. All.

quote:
Originally posted by kevincann

So these two methods are contra-indicated.. as DM is a baseline practice designed to CAUSE stillness.. and gently stimulate and prompt purification... DM can't rely on these already existing, or it's not DM at all.


I would agree that DM is designed to gently "prompt" purification, but I wouldn't say that it is designed to "cause stillness" (to me that almost implies force)..... I would use the word "cultivate" and not "cause." Probably just splitting hairs here, but the word "cause" (to me) indicates that if one is doing DM correctly that you *will* feel stillness. This is not always the case. Sometimes DM stirs stuff up so much that stillness is no longer recognized (at least that is my experience). I like the word cultivate better because it does not indicate immediate results, especially not "still on the cushion results." The word "cultivate" to me indicates that there is a *process* involved and that stillness is not necessarily noticed/recognized (during the practice especially) right away. For me, stillness is usually noticed in hindsight.

Hope this clarifies what I'm saying a bit.

Love!
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kevincann

USA
335 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  12:17:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Kevin

quote:
Originally posted by kevincann

If we mechanically repeat the mantra "harshly" with "ordinary awareness", the practice doesn't work.


Well, I'm not quite sure what "ordinary awareness" is, and I still think that mechanical mantra repetition "works," I've just observed that it doesn't seem to work *as well* as when I leave a bit of space between repetitions is all. I'm sure that there is still purification happening (as the purification is essentially the result of the vibration of "i am") but it doesn't seem to cultivate as much inner silence simply because the mantra is never fully lost (for me).

quote:
Originally posted by kevincann

If we repeat the mantra by letting the mantra "fall into the stillness", that's all well and good.. but that's not meditation, that's Samyama.. that's not DM.


It seems that this method causes *too much* inner silence to be cultivated (for me). More then my nervous system can handle anyway. For example, at the last retreat Katrine and I instructed (in Toronto last month), I used this technique during the first meditation practice. For the majority of this practice one of the groundskeepers was cutting the grass on a "ride 'em lawn mower" directly outside the practice room window. I literally did not hear this even though at one point (I was told afterwards) the lawnmower shot a rock which hit the window directly behind me. Katrine told me after the meditation that my head was pretty much hanging at navel level. I was basically "out cold"..... no awareness. At. All.

quote:
Originally posted by kevincann

So these two methods are contra-indicated.. as DM is a baseline practice designed to CAUSE stillness.. and gently stimulate and prompt purification... DM can't rely on these already existing, or it's not DM at all.


I would agree that DM is designed to gently "prompt" purification, but I wouldn't say that it is designed to "cause stillness" (to me that almost implies force)..... I would use the word "cultivate" and not "cause." Probably just splitting hairs here, but the word "cause" (to me) indicates that if one is doing DM correctly that you *will* feel stillness. This is not always the case. Sometimes DM stirs stuff up so much that stillness is no longer recognized (at least that is my experience). I like the word cultivate better because it does not indicate immediate results, especially not "still on the cushion results." The word "cultivate" to me indicates that there is a *process* involved and that stillness is not necessarily noticed/recognized (during the practice especially) right away. For me, stillness is usually noticed in hindsight.

Hope this clarifies what I'm saying a bit.

Love!




Thanks for sharing your thoughtful experience with us.

Love,

Kev
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  08:45:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson and Kevin
Thanks for being here

quote:
Well, I'm not quite sure what "ordinary awareness" is, and I still think that mechanical mantra repetition "works," I've just observed that it doesn't seem to work *as well* as when I leave a bit of space between repetitions is all.


Just chiming in to say that if it is one thing I know for sure, it is that whatever my judgement is of "what inner silence is"....or how it is undoing all our identification with sense perceptions ......well, whatever I have to say about that....is all my experience and not unveiling something about inner silence......I intuit that it will always be this way for me. That I will never know "what it is", or "how it works" - only that it is.

So - in a meditation, whatever takes place...no matter how beautiful or silent or peaceful it is.....it is still my experience of what is. Since the other kind of "knowing" is beyond anything graspable.

So with that in mind......the kriteria for judging whether the meditation procedure works or not...lies entirely outside the meditation practice itself. Whatever happens during meditation (be it "good" or "bad") is irrelevant to this very fact. It is as you pointed out here Carson:

quote:
For me, stillness is usually noticed in hindsight.


So......I say it would be a good thing to stick to the original DM procedure. The back2back one. No matter how mechanical it gets, one can still gently favor the mantra over this observation :)


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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  09:45:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Katrine

The original DM procedure is to repeat the mantra, lose it, and come back to it. If I never lose the mantra when I repeat it backtoback then I am not doing the procedure. At least this is the way I see it. Perhaps Yogani can chime in with some clarification?

Love!
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  10:40:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson

Yes, let's see what Yogani says.....but until then:

quote:
The original DM procedure is to repeat the mantra, lose it, and come back to it. If I never lose the mantra when I repeat it backtoback then I am not doing the procedure.


As far as I understand it (which we know can be pretty blond sometimes )....the part of the DM procedure that is "losing the mantra" is not of our "doing". Losing the mantra happens of itself.

It can be quite subtle. So when you notice that your meditation procedure has "become mechanical" - then this noticing is in my experience a way of losing the mantra. Since right then...you are in fact not favoring the mantra.

Have a wonderful weekend....off now to sing a concert in the Trinity church in Oslo .....jiippi
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yogani

USA
5183 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  10:55:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Katrine

The original DM procedure is to repeat the mantra, lose it, and come back to it. If I never lose the mantra when I repeat it backtoback then I am not doing the procedure. At least this is the way I see it. Perhaps Yogani can chime in with some clarification?

Love!



Hi Carson:

Thoughts and mantra together is correct practice, if that is what is happening. Trying to strategize our way out of that to some other subjective experience in meditation is incorrect practice.

If the mantra seems mechanical sometimes, that is what the meditation is during at that time. It will change as the process of purification and opening advances. Katrine is right that noticing this in a thought process is a signal that we have left the mantra and then we easily favor it again, not minding whatever the experience may be.

I understand what you are getting at by adding the samyama element to your meditation practice to one degree or other. But it is a hybrid practice that depends on the degree of abiding inner silence for the subjective effect you are looking for with it. So, besides not being AYP deep meditation, it is not good meditation instruction for beginners, who will not have the abiding inner silence to support such a practice.

What all of this discussion has been about is mixing meditation and samyama practice. I have no idea where it might lead, but do know that it is not baseline AYP practice, and not accurate DM instruction for beginners.

For further clarification, it is suggested to go back to the several posts I did earlier in this topic.

All the best!

The guru is in you.

PS: Why not take up the practice of samyama, and play with this letting go business there? That is where it belongs. And let your meditations go how they will using the original procedure. This is the surest way to continue the cultivation of abiding inner silence.

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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  11:01:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Katrine

Yes, there is no conscious losing of the mantra here... no matter how I am doing the procedure. But with the backtoback repeating there is no *complete* losing of the mantra. The thought that "the mantra is mechanical" or the thought that "I am not losing the mantra" is a thought that is *overlaying* the mantra. The mantra is still being repeated at the same time as these thoughts. Does that make sense?

Love!
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yogani

USA
5183 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  11:04:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
This too shall pass. Relax!

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yogani

USA
5183 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  11:12:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
PS: If we notice that the mantra is rattling on by itself at some level in the mind, that is also a signal to easily bring our attention back to the mantra. The rattling on of our mind is not the mantra. Our attention easily with the mantra is the mantra.

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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  2:32:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Yogani and thank you for your clarifications

I guess the confusion for me is around this sentence in the DM lesson; "The goal is to follow the simple procedure of thinking the mantra, losing it, and coming back to it when you find you have lost it."

When I think the mantra "backtoback" there doesn't seem to be any complete losing of the mantra... it is always there to one degree or another. I understand the instruction of "favoring" the mantra, but I was under the understanding that one of the goals (and benefits) of DM was the cultivation of inner silence and that that was acheived by losing the mantra and then coming back to it. This seems to be my experience as well. But I do not lose the mantra if I repeat it backtoback... I simply have thoughts overlaying the mantra. When this happens and I notice it I follow the instruction of favoring the mantra and redirect my focus back to the mantra and let go of the thoughts, but still, there is never any "losing the mantra" when I repeat the mantra backtoback.

I'm sorry if I am flogging a dead horse here or if I am being incredibly daft, but I want to make sure that I have this DM thing down pat.... especially since I am regularly teaching others DM. Best to get this right beyond a shadow of a doubt so that I can do the procedure full justice when I am instructing others.

Thanks!

Love!
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  2:54:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by yogani

PS: Why not take up the practice of samyama, and play with this letting go business there? That is where it belongs. And let your meditations go how they will using the original procedure. This is the surest way to continue the cultivation of abiding inner silence.


Actually I have been using samyama (again) for the past month or so as time permits. It is the first thing that gets dropped if time is short (which it occasionally is) or if I am feeling overloaded, but I've generally been pretty consistent with it as of late.

Love!
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yogani

USA
5183 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2011 :  3:14:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson:

Your experience with the mantra will change, including its presence, tempo and degree of clarity.

If you have had the thought, "The mantra is always there" you have just gone off the mantra. If you are noticing the mantra doing something or other, you are off the mantra. What the mantra is doing does not matter. What we are doing with our available attention is everything.

Whatever the experience is with the mantra and/or thoughts does not require evaluation. The experience is never the problem during meditation, assuming we stay with the simple procedure. The evaluation is the problem, because it can lead to alterations in the procedure, which is what you have been describing. And then it isn't DM anymore.

The guru is in you.

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