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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 25 2010 : 10:35:13 PM
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Hi Yogani,
Another great lesson, I enjoy reading them all and find my perspective on the spiritual journey really coincides with the AYP writings.
quote:
But this is only half of it. This is a dual condition of unidentified awareness, with everything else being an object – it is still subject and objects. The other half is a "coming back" into relationship with all the objects, including our sense of "I," with a merging in stillness. Then there is no longer subject (awareness) and objects, but a unity of subject and objects. This is the Oneness, the freedom that is the fruition of yoga.
I think many reach this point, but it seems the journey to abiding 24/7 unity perspective much fewer reach, even today? Is it typical from your experience that many years can intercede between the experience of knowing yourself as no thing/ pure awareness and abiding 24/7 unity consciousness?
Also, there is not much mention of how unconditional love plays into the AYP enlightenment milestones? My personal path involves the rise of unconditional love in an increasingly expanding and inclusive way for myself and others in an increasingly 24/7 direction. Love and total acceptance for the Self and it is seen to be all Self more and more. How does this (Self love and acceptance) tie into the abiding unity perception from your experience as both a requirement and symptom? |
Edited by - Anthem on Aug 26 2010 08:15:13 AM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2010 : 08:20:52 AM
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Hi Anthem:
On the "going out" from identification with objects of perception and then "coming back" into relationship with objects in unity, it is a function of self-inquiry, and that does not lend itself to a reliable formula approach as much the core practices in AYP do. It is largely personal choice. Either way, identification and suffering have been alleviated. Who is to say how one will choose to engage with objects -- as witness separate from objects, or as witness merged with objects?
There has been so much emphasis on non-duality and the "illusion" of the world (a duality!), that I felt it might be good to point out that there is a broad continuum on the enlightenment scale that can be called "freedom," where duality is still operating to greater or lesser degree.
So how long will it take to dissolve into non-dual unity? It depends on the person, the nature of their bhakti, and the exercise of self-inquiry after the "going out" from identification with objects has occurred (or as it is occurring). It could be instant, or it could not happen for a long time. Your choice. 
One thing is for sure, the "coming back" cannot happen until the "going out" has at least begun to happen, i.e., relational (in stillness) self-inquiry leading to unity relies on the rise of witness.
It should be mentioned that unidentified awareness without full unity with objects is not a sterile condition of non-engagement in the world. Whenever we see that sort of dry aloof dispassion, the condition will be suspect. Real spiritual dispassion is very passionate about the well-being of others. This gets to your next question.
Whether we call it "unconditional love" or "outpouring divine love," it is the same flow that emerges as abiding inner silence and ecstatic conductivity/radiance are merging in daily activity. It can also be known as an unmoving flow, which is a deep acceptance and the ability to absorb in loving stillness (and illuminate from within) whatever may be happening. This is unconditional love for Self and all. This too leads to unity, for the lover wants nothing but to merge with the beloved, which is ultimately seen everywhere. It is the fruition of bhakti and karma yoga. It too is a matter of personal choice.
So much of this is automatic, except in cases where it is beaten to death with the intellect, as advaita teachers (and their students) are so inclined to do, or with endless ritual, as is so common on bhakti paths. With a systematic approach involving daily yoga practices, it is all going to happen anyway, and the practitioner can finish it off in any way desired. That is the advantage of systematically putting in a solid foundation of abiding inner silence and cultivating it outward in ecstatic divine flow. Once that is taken care of, the rest is easy. Ripe fruit will fall off the tree sooner or later. It's as easy as one, two, three... 
The guru is in you.
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2010 : 09:19:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Ripe fruit will fall off the tree sooner or later. It's as easy as one, two, three...
gate gate pâragate pârasamgate bodhi svâhâ
"gone gone, gone beyond, gone altogether beyond, O what an awakening, all hail!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_Sutra
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lebanon
Lebanon
1 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2010 : 12:17:18 PM
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| how i can send message to yogani? |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2010 : 06:39:46 AM
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Dear Anthem and Yogani
Thank you so much for this interchange. It very much ties in with what is happening here too - and I am very grateful that your words validate it.
Yogani wrote:
quote:
On the "going out" from identification with objects of perception and then "coming back" into relationship with objects in unity, it is a function of self-inquiry, and that does not lend itself to a reliable formula approach as much the core practices in AYP do. It is largely personal choice. Either way, identification and suffering have been alleviated. Who is to say how one will choose to engage with objects -- as witness separate from objects, or as witness merged with objects?
Yes.....I looked for reliable formulas regarding this, but could never find a consistency in it that seemed to fit what I am experiencing.....in fact, it is the challenges/pain/joy of normal daily living more than anything that is serving as the teacher here. This is the crux of the matter, since when awake to it...the option of escaping is gone. Through experimenting....through feedback.....and most of all through getting to know my nature in a completely new way......I came to see that I am by nature a Bhakta. And so even though enjoying and happily devouring jnani material; talking to/working with people from this perspective kept me away from my body.....my earthly nature. And it is easy today to see why this happened. I was escaping my nature....because deep down I must have known that coming back into it would have me face new challenges...and reveal things i was not willing to see at the time.
Yet one can only fool oneself successfully for so long....
So.....I am again in a dual relationship with myself. But it is very different this time. It boils down to this only:
Thy will be done
After sitting practices I finish off with at least 10 minutes lying flat on the ground on my stomach/face and hands streched out in front. Not a sound inside (except for the roar of the silence). It is simply amazing the effect that has had on the balancing of the ecstatic energy here. All of it poors out from every cell and into the ground and I am peace once again. I stopped pranayama and some days this lying on the floor is my only structured practice. Saying the mantra once is enough. And some days when there is too much energy coming in, I refrain from saying it. But my heart never forgets. So the intention keeps me in practice anyway.
All the ideas here regarding a livelyhood based on service (my idea of it) has been let go of. And in that... the service is finally happening. Fittingly enough it happens most in the place I had never suspected it would happen.....
There is not much ritual. But what there is, is very very joyful. I pray. And have found new friends - with and without wings. A family of sorts....... that is always with me.
The shine continues to silently speak of its brilliantly dark, mysterious and silent nature - and I am an ear. More than anything this is my nature. I listen. Period.
So in this duality - I am happy.
And the quite love everywhere is this happiness.
quote:
So much of this is automatic, except in cases where it is beaten to death with the intellect, as advaita teachers (and their students) are so inclined to do, or with endless ritual, as is so common on bhakti paths. With a systematic approach involving daily yoga practices, it is all going to happen anyway, and the practitioner can finish it off in any way desired. That is the advantage of systematically putting in a solid foundation of abiding inner silence and cultivating it outward in ecstatic divine flow. Once that is taken care of, the rest is easy. Ripe fruit will fall off the tree sooner or later. It's as easy as one, two, three...
Yogani......
I have a bone to pick with you here.....:)
It may be simple........as one, two, three......but in my experience it sure as XXXX is not that easy. 
The "once that is taken care of" is actually everything. It can be very arduous....for me it has involved times of deep sadness, immense longing, ......and the ecstatic highs...and the crashing lows....with the fear that comes with the state of separation....... has been difficult to avoid sometimes........even with all the help from AYP.
...so even taking into consideration my stubborn viking nature....... though the light/love is always here......and even though the letting go is the easiest thing ever once it is seen in the right context......and even though ....YES.....consistent practice is everything..... Until this is finally trusted and digested and assimilated into an integrated point of existence in the now.....
it is not that easy.
But boy is it worth it 
Much love to you both.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2010 : 11:16:22 AM
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Hi Katrine and All
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
This is the crux of the matter, since when awake to it...the option of escaping is gone.
Ah.... yes, this was recently discovered here as well. My FB status a little while ago was; "No escaping....just embracing", and it has become a bit of a "motto" here. Choosing not to run from anything anymore. When the instinct is to run, instead there is a conscious choosing to embrace whatever "I" want to run from. This has caused an increasing amount of joy and openness to everything here....there is nothing to be rejected anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Through experimenting....through feedback.....and most of all through getting to know my nature in a completely new way......I came to see that I am by nature a Bhakta.
Hahaha Was there ever any doubt!?! 
quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Yet one can only fool oneself successfully for so long....
Amen!
Love!
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2010 : 12:22:13 PM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
I pray. And have found new friends - with and without wings. A family of sorts....... that is always with me.
Welcome to heaven. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2010 : 04:17:10 AM
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2010 : 08:44:53 AM
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Hi Yogani,
Thanks for your reply!
quote:
Either way, identification and suffering have been alleviated. Who is to say how one will choose to engage with objects -- as witness separate from objects, or as witness merged with objects?
I don't quite understand your perspective here, in the AYP lessons you say that first comes witness separate from objects and then there is the merging between witness and object for ongoing 24/7 unity experience. Sounds like you are saying above that it is a choice and the person may elect not to experience the unity perspective and still not suffer 24/7?
Also thanks for bridging the terminology of divine out-pouring and unconditional love, I see it now. |
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2010 : 09:58:59 AM
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Hi Anthem,
yes I think it may be a choice, but is it really? I don't know, I think the whole process when on this level is quite intuitive and natural. It's not like on the intellectual level, that you just decide - oh unity? not today... :)
I've recently read some heavy intelectual material explaining a Dzogchen (buddhist) view. In there, they say that in this witness-only state, suffering (samsara) is not experienced, it doesn't arise. But neither does arise nirvana, because for that to happen, one must go again the whole way into manifestation, into the world (as the world). So if you see it from this point of view, then remaining in the witness only is being stuck in an intermediate state between suffering and liberation.
Well, I think most will rather make the choice to shine :) |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2010 : 11:15:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
I don't quite understand your perspective here, in the AYP lessons you say that first comes witness separate from objects and then there is the merging between witness and object for ongoing 24/7 unity experience. Sounds like you are saying above that it is a choice and the person may elect not to experience the unity perspective and still not suffer 24/7?
Hi Anthem:
The milestones/stages in AYP are the mechanical aspect of rising inner silence, ecstatic conductivity, and their merging in unity. It is a map that can be helpful, and we have practices that address these aspects of development quite clearly.
But then what? It boils down to how we choose to see the world in everyday living, and that is still a function of personal choice (in stillness), with personality still present in our actions. If someone is in unity (subject and objects merged), interactions will still be happening with this and that. The view from the doer's perspective can be of this and that, or of no this and that. It is a choice whether the world is viewed as a sandy beach with attributes, or as an endless sea of sand with no attributes. Which do you prefer? Those who choose to see the undifferentiated sand only may not be doing much practical work. But they do radiate divine love and giggle a lot.
With unity, there is the ability to view it either way, and both ways. How it is viewed in the moment is a choice. There is no requirement that an enlightened person see things in a particular way. "Freedom" means seeing and doing freely in stillness, beyond definitions and the psychosomatic condition of identification and suffering (I, me & mine out in front all the time).
This is better to be lived than to be understood. It can be lived by everyone, but it cannot be understood by anyone. What can be understood is that it is a paradox, a liberated and happy one, with mind operating in the background instead of out in front. Effective practices combined with an active life bring us there in due course.
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2010 : 11:25:42 AM
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Mmmmmm... that was sweet Yogani.
Thank You!!!
Here are some words from Anthony de Mello :
http://www.soulwise.net/99adm03.htm
quote:
It's not your actions, it's your being that counts. Then you might swing into action. You might or might not. You can't decide that until you're awake. Unfortunately, all the emphasis is concentrated on changing the world and very little emphasis is given to waking up. When you wake up, you will know what to do or what not to do. Some mystics are very strange, you know. Like Jesus, who said something like "I wasn't sent to those people; I limit myself to what I am supposed to do right now. Later, maybe". Some mystics go silent. Mysteriously, some of them sing songs. Some of them are into service. We're never sure. They're a law unto themselves; they know exactly what is to be done. "Plunge into the heat of battle and keep your heart at the lotus feet of the Lord", as I said to you earlier.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2010 : 12:24:50 PM
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Hi Yogani,
Thanks for clarifying. I understand how you can choose to see the world from either a dual or non-perspective from the unity state, no questions there.
I thought you were saying in your original post that once the witness stage is reached some might elect to stay there, seeing all objects as separate. From my perspective you don't have a choice about staying in a fixed point of view, it is just a matter of time before perspective expands (sometimes a long time). That was why I was asking for clarification, apologies for being unclear.
The reason for my original post is that I observe often those who speak from a perspective of non-duality seemingly understanding they are no thing/ pure being, but lacking unity perspective and still entrenched in identification in many ways. Sometimes these people seem to stay in a state where they do not live from a unity perspective for many years? Those who express from the state of unity perspective seem to have a lot less identification than those expressing from the witness perspective of being separate to all objects. This is my perspective at the moment any accuracy from your experience?
I think it is quite clear that so long as you are in the body there is a perpetual and unending expansion of perspective of form that will continue onwards perpetually even long after the non-dual perspective is known. There will always be learning and there is no place to arrive which is enjoyment in itself especially without suffering. I think there is a lot of confusion about the concept of arriving at enlightenment as being done with the journey. There is no journey, just as there is no process for enlightenment in non-duality but that would be denying the dual nature of this world from my perspective in which these body-vehicles perceive from.
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2010 : 1:56:59 PM
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This thread is beautiful. I'd just like to say, praise god for AYP and Yogani. It's the written equivalent of a breath of fresh air reading everything Yogani writes (and what a lot of people here on the board write too).
There's so much dogma surrounding enlightenment, so much rigid and inflexible thinking. I feel like there have been so many gurus throughout history who are/were enlightened, and I thank and praise all of them for their teachings, but I do feel like so many have communicated a message which is very dogmatic and inflexible about how one should attain enlightenment, what enlightenment means, and even undermine the value of normal, unenlightened human experience. Some even say, give up all hope of being enlightened, stop trying! Some enlightened people seem to take a very nihilistic view on the world as a result of enlightenment, like "it's all an illusion, who cares, nothing matters" which makes me feel like whilst they may have become enlightened in the head, their heart still needs to wake up. For me, whilst I have an intuitive sense that reality is an illusion, and I am not really my ego (although it's not my direct experience every day, yet), and I badly want to experience my true nature and end suffering, I feel like when I become enlightened I want an expansion of my compassion, love and desire to serve other human beings. I want my love for people to become so fiery and intense that it consumes me. It's interesting to compare many enlightened teachers with Jesus - I feel like Jesus had the full heart awakening, not just a head awakening. How passionate he seemed!
I guess while becoming enlightened does a great service to the world, in doesn't necessarily automatically make one a perfect teacher, or a highly fluid, flexible and dynamic thinker.
Yogani's teaching are the most pragmatic, down-to-earth and inspiring that I've ever encountered (and I've spent a lot of time reading about and listening to so many other enlightened teachers). I think they offer perhaps the most accessible route to spiritual progress that I've ever encountered. Maybe AYP will do for spiritual advancement what electricity did for technological advancement.
I'm so grateful that I somehow ended up on this website, I really don't even remember how it happened. Thank you Yogani. |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2010 : 2:38:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Here are some words from Anthony de Mello :
http://www.soulwise.net/99adm03.htm
[quote]It's not your actions, it's your being that counts. Then you might swing into action. You might or might not. You can't decide that until you're awake. Unfortunately, all the emphasis is concentrated on changing the world and very little emphasis is given to waking up. When you wake up, you will know what to do or what not to do. Some mystics are very strange, you know. Like Jesus, who said something like "I wasn't sent to those people; I limit myself to what I am supposed to do right now. Later, maybe". Some mystics go silent. Mysteriously, some of them sing songs. Some of them are into service. We're never sure. They're a law unto themselves; they know exactly what is to be done. "Plunge into the heat of battle and keep your heart at the lotus feet of the Lord", as I said to you earlier.
Shanti - thank you Anthony de Mello is such a wonderful writer, and I had never read this before. What inspiration!
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2010 : 5:17:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by amoux
Shanti - thank you Anthony de Mello is such a wonderful writer, and I had never read this before. What inspiration!
I just love his words. So practical and down to earth. Gives me the chills when I listen to him. Hopefully I will be able to articulate as clearly as him some day.
I have listened to him for hours:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y3Q...0&playnext=1
and here are transcripts of those videos:
http://www.soulwise.net/99adm01.htm |
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2010 : 08:16:15 AM
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Katrine, All,
It's never easy, until it is.
My early path involved many years of clearing rubbish tips. Now things are easier. Not many start with cleaning first - I must have been a housewife for many past lives
Many, undertaking meditation, aspire to the witness. This path skips past the resolution of bound pain, notwithstanding a dark-night period experienced by many after a year or three. So, later, when the energy paths open and realign, the pains, the knots, must be cleared, and here arises the true dark night - confusion, doubt, discomfort.
Katrine, you are Bhakti now, and Jnana, and Karma.
Love follows, on the path of Meditation.
Meditation follows, on the path of Love.
And the path itself is the duty - Thy will be done
They are not separate, and they are all our nature.
The Father is Iswara; then there is more. Thank you for describing/sharing your experiences.
Anthem11,
On going out and coming back, it has always seemed to me that the nature is determined by the initial conditions plus the need now. Not that there is ever truly any going out and coming back, except that when there was, that was OK too.
"those who speak from a perspective of non-duality seemingly understanding they are no thing/ pure being, but lacking unity perspective"
It is my understanding that this is how it begins, and yes, it matures to unity, but not as unity is usually visualised, but as also embodying everything that has gone before - an interpenetration/co-existence.
Namaste
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2010 : 2:32:56 PM
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I just wanted to say that this is a great thread
quote:
I have a bone to pick with you here.....:)
It may be simple........as one, two, three......but in my experience it sure as XXXX is not that easy.
Katrine, I completely agree with you here 
and I agree with Buddhi Hermit when she said:
quote:
It's never easy, until it is.
My early path involved many years of clearing rubbish tips. Now things are easier.
It's so joyful and simple really, you can imagine being a child just popped out and completely reveling in this same consciousness.
No resistance.
But the path to get here (where?) was so dang hard and scary and treacherous! And in teaching enlightenment, most teachers have emphasised just how difficult and painful the path to enlightenment is, when they should really be emphasizing just how simple peace and love and bliss and joy in unity are!
I think that's the really exemplary attribute of AYP. It keeps it simple. It doesn't scare anyone with exotic complexity. It doesn't confuse people!
Anthem you said,
quote:
Sometimes these people seem to stay in a state where they do not live from a unity perspective for many years?
Who can say about these things?
Each person has their own unique path. As I think I've read at AYP somewhere, a fine analogy is that of a fruit tree. It grows through stages in it's own time and when the season is ripe it grows fruit... and the fruit eventually ripens, falls from the tree, and begins new growth all over again.
The difference being, the seasons of human life are a mystery, whereas the seasons of the plants come like clockwork |
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