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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 21 2006 : 5:47:46 PM
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Hari Om Tat Sat
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Hello All,
Many write on this notion of suppressing ( even stamping out) ones desires ( or Kama 'kaam' to desire)....hummmmm - I find this curious. If I may, I believe there are a few points to consider here if you care to banter about a few concepts and ideas. That said, this discussion is the A in AYP - Advanced knowledge to compliment Advanced Yogic Practices.
If one is a mumuksu - or the seeker with the (burning) desire for moksha or kaivalya (liberation) is this not a noteworthy goal based on the fundamental desire for enlightenment? Is this a desire to stamp out?
Is there an action that you perform today that does not start at the subtest level - an impulse to do something? Then the body-mind acts to pursue it. These are desires. Even the circular logic to desire not to have desires can make you gah-gah <<<  >>>.
At the most refined level , a desire starts with an impulse. Sometimes not even verbalized in your internal dialog. So, stopping this whole process seems almost impossible. These desires, in part, are remains of past impressions, and we are making more along the way.
There was a post on Vasana's http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=676 that discusses this a bit if you care to take a look.
SO, what's the deal with these desires? Could it be that desires increase more attachment of the senses to the objects? The tighter the 'coupling' of the seer ( that's you ) to the seen ( the objects around us) the more we perpetuate ignorance! Ignorance of what? that I am not the things around me, nor am I really this body made of the 5 tattvas ( elements) This has been the name given avidya or the opposite of knowledge, ignorance. Hence when the sage says 'renounce the world' - its considered a call for withdrawal. Yet the sages are saying renounce that you are not that which you see , neti-neti!!! they proclaim, not this ! not this! You are not this that you see, you are the SELF , unbounded whole.
We break down this ignorance of cause and affect by allowing our awareness (our desire to meditate) to experience this Silence, this infinite stillness ( also called Siva). We allow our attention to settle down and experience more then the most - this infinite bliss (some call Being). We convert 'possession of things' for the 'possession of the SELF' ... done innocently. This, when accomplished quenches all desires yet is essentially a sattvic(pure) desire, but a desire none the less.
The Upanishads proclaim upon reaching this kaivalya ( some call Dharma-mega or cloud-pouring virtue) all desires are then fulfilled.
What's this - Another round of desire chasing even in enlightenment?? When one achieves moksha to its fullest bloom (this is Brahman Consciousness) one becomes the fabric of creation -there is no-thing in time or space you are not. (I'd say that would be a profound experience, eh?) Hence you are everything at all times, all within the SELF that permeates everywhere.
If you are everything, what can you possible want to possess? What action could you be taking that is NOT being taking place on the level of humans, the gods ( code name for the collective total of the senses), the devas, at every level of creation? This is the experience the Upanishads point to; Fullness and Wholeness, one without a second.
When one has this experience, s/he needs some coaching from another to explain this, yet it boils down to I Am That, Thou art That, all This is That. That what? the complete , no edged, no end, consciousness that permeates everywhere.
Of what use would a desire be to this Being? All desires are fulfilled because you have now become the ocean of fulfilling those desires and you are one and same.
Peace,
Frank In San Diego
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mystiq
India
62 Posts |
Posted - Feb 08 2006 : 1:06:34 PM
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Dear Frank you are the centre of your universe. Desire is wanting to move for something. But where will you move where ever you go you are there. Is there any place where you are not? The moment you think of a place your mind is already there. Desire for meditation is not like other desires. It is a desire for non movement. It is not a desire it is a (nondesire for movement). It is being in yourself. Even other actions are being in yourself, but an element of otherness is created fictiously.
mystiq |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2006 : 11:13:36 PM
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Hari Om
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quote:
Originally posted by mystiq
Desire for meditation is not like other desires. It is a desire for non movement.
Hello Mystiq,
I understand the ideal you convey, yet it (desire) is an impulse, an intention. This comes from mind, past impressions that can or cannot be fulfilled.
This impulse for meditation is favorable, as it leads to sattva, yet I do not see how it can be recognized as a non-desire.
The notion of my post is that is has been the convention for many a century to suff out desires... I can see being selective in ones choices. I can also see/comprehend that desires leads to the quest for more, and the circle keeps on going. Yet, (and you are not suggesting this), desire is what brought about this universe.
Desire for Moksa is also still a desire. So, snuffing out this impulse does not meet my common sense test. It is when it is guided and nurtured to sattvic things it serves a purpose; and even the sattvic must also be transcented in the end.
Just as fire can be part of a homam/havan or it can burn down the temple, like that, desires have the potential to go either way.
thx for the note!
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2006 : 11:41:19 PM
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I dont' think the problem is desire, so much as the notion that something's missing, which desire then aims to fill.
Nothing's ever missing. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 12:27:48 AM
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I don't think it is necessary to stamp out desire. I understand what they're trying to do, but it's the hard way to get there.
I believe all desires exist on many levels. it is only necessary to transcend the level of the desire, not the desire itself.
For instance the lowest desire of sexual nature may be to club a woman over the head, drag her to your cave and rape her.
The next level of that same desire may be to seduce her to choose to be with you.
The next level may be tantric sex.
The next level, realizing God through ecstatic conductivity.
All desire is based upon separation from God and the impulse to return.
It just gets misinterpreted as a worldly desire, and the lower the form of existence,
the lower the expression of the same desire.
But all of us have the ability to move their desire more than one level at a time. |
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mystiq
India
62 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 03:38:03 AM
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In the Upanishad it is written that the wise do not accept neither good nor evil because if one is taken the other follows. By the same logic whatever we wish for will come true but the opposite will also come true. Then what do we wish for?
mystiq |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 08:19:44 AM
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| So if we wish to be one with God, the opposite will also come true? How is that possible? |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 09:45:33 AM
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Hi All:
Desires can be redirected, taken higher to divine purpose. It can be done with every desire we have. This is what bhakti is about -- refining the desire process to be effective spiritual practice. See: http://www.aypsite.org/67.html
The guru is in you.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 10:13:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
So if we wish to be one with God, the opposite will also come true? How is that possible?
The closer we get to God, the more we become aware of the darkness within ourselves. We don't necessarily act upon it, but we realize its presence, and have a certain respect for its potential power. It would seem that the higher we wish to go, the deeper we must dig into ourselves. One of my favorite quotes from Nietsche (paraphrased):
If a tree would cast its branches to heaven, it must first send its roots to hell. |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 1:15:42 PM
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Is longing for the Divine merely the path to That or is spiritual longing also the destination in disguise?
Spiritual passion or spiritual desire uplifted to the highest level is perhaps indistinguishable from the Absolute.
Is spiritual passion in our hearts the Divine living within us?
Edited for clarity, reduced content
[Note: as newbie this thread resonated strongly, however posting to 7 year old discussion is probably considered inappropriate, apologies to the forum]
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 22 2013 11:28:26 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2013 : 11:49:43 AM
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Welcome to the forums parvati9! 
There is nothing inappropriate about what you have done. 
There are many ways to reach the truth/the divine...
Some go by the way of the heart (bhakti) some by the way of the intellect (jnana) and some by way of service (karma).
They all take us to the same place... within... where the divine already resides. And it is the divine/stillness that wants us to look though the layers we have added and find itself and makes us move in one path or the other based on our inclination/conditioning.
So the answer to your question "Is spiritual passion in our hearts the Divine living within us?" is Yes! |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 12:06:08 AM
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Thankyou Shanti for the reassurance and welcome. This is a great thread.
Not sure, I may have a slightly unusual perspective, or maybe I missed something. Surely all true paths lead to the Divine. But why emphasize the internal Divine over the external Divine? That makes no sense to me, I just don't get it. You said all paths take us to the same place, within, where the Divine already resides.
Yes. I think our passion, our longing for the Divine, is the Divine within. Namaste ...the Divine in me salutes the Divine in you. But I do believe there is also an external passion and an external Divine. And that external Divine longs for us even as we long for It. Do you not agree? Perhaps not.
The passion internal, the Divine internal, is coterminous with the passion external, the Divine external (to our bodies). It seems that the universe, the external Divine, operates in tandem with the internal Divine. And they are the exact same Divine. There IS no internal or external with reference to the Divine, it's all one indivisible Divine imo.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 01:16:20 AM
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Welcome to the forums Parvati9
quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
But why emphasize the internal Divine over the external Divine?
Why emphasize "Divine" at all? 
In all seriousness though, is there really any separation over what is Divine and what is not? Every time I go looking for the line between "divine" and "not divine" I get lost.... I cannot find anything but "The One." 
Love!
Carson 
P.S> This "getting lost" happens whenever I go looking for the separation between "this" and "that" so this is not specific to the "what is divine" question. |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 11:09:18 AM
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Hi CarsonZi,
Excellent, .. I'm kinda sorta on the same page and thanks for the welcome.
Your post was helpful but I may have gotten something from it which you did not intend.
Our reality is mostly 3 dimensional, yes? It would seem from the highest levels or dimensions beyond 3D that nothing exists but the Divine (paraphrase of what you said if I'm reading you correctly).
What you seem to be generically implying - is that I've gotten away from 3D reality and yet still trying to make sense of it from a 3D perspective. Very astute observation. It perfectly explains my dilema (is that close to what you were conveying?)
In our spiritual journeys and paths we endeavor to reconnect with the Divine, do we not? It would appear that each path is an individual thing, forged by our unique proclivities and longings for That. In linear terms, a path has a destination.
To conjecture that the path itself is the destination is to go beyond 3D into the higher dimensions. Where linear time doesn't exist and sequential steps along the way are meaningless. Why? Because everything is happening in the present moment.
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 23 2013 11:26:05 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 2:23:04 PM
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Hi parvati9,
I wasn't trying to really to point to anything in particular, more just putting something out there that may sparks some inquiry. Looks like it did that, although the inquiry you found was not what I was generally pointing towards. Doesn't really matter as long as what you took from it was helpful right?
For clarity's sake, what I was generally pointing towards was that ultimately, everything is "Divine" even in "3D reality." The separation between divine and not divine is mental only and getting hung up on the concept of divinity has caused more than one person to "get stuck." Myself included. That's what I was trying to point to with my post, but I'm glad you took what you needed not what was intended. 
Lots of Love,
Carson |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 5:31:29 PM
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All is well then .. . . . ..
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adishivayogi
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2013 : 3:18:58 PM
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| desire is not the problem. desire is a vehicle. a vehicle to your joy or to your suffering. the problem is your desires are very compulsionary . they need to be made conscious and aimed towards your well being. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2014 : 11:58:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by adishivayogi
desire is not the problem. desire is a vehicle. a vehicle to your joy or to your suffering. the problem is your desires are very compulsionary . they need to be made conscious and aimed towards your well being.
Its true. My current understanding is that all desires are rooted in the one desire: love.
Love is the foundation of the universe. We seek love because we perceive ourselves to be separate. But we are not really separate at all unless we accept the ego's perspective of separateness.
The desire to live, love and experience is natural and healthy. |
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sivasambho
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2014 : 12:32:28 PM
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Perception is desirable. Truth is desirable. Continuous wisdom is desirable.
Level of attainment is purely at the hands or minds of the Mumuksa.
In the wildness of the world, we seem to have the privilege to strive for these. What of the countless beings that didn't get a human birth or that are born as human beings and yet do not know of the possibilities of a human life.
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This whole 'desire' thing...
