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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 9:25:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Very well put EMC.
I think there has been a lot of effort for many years by religions and societies to make sex bad and dirty. And so people would look up at anybody on a pedestal who claims to have cleansed themselves of it.
But this was all very ignorant because our whole connection with this world is through our body. Life force is extremely important here, and it is intimately connected with the body. And life force tries to multiply itself by nature.
So I think EMC is right; horniness is. If anything, a self realizing person (or saint as Yogananda calls them) would have greater freedom in his available choices, not fewer by completely cutting out certain options that the rest of us have.
Why does a saint have more choices? Because he has freed himself from attachments. So he could have the strongest impulse that anyone could have to have sex, and he would have the freedom to not act on it because he has complete control of himself.
This control not having been gained by annihilating sexual desire. But by dealing with it directly and learning to move that energy to other parts of his body for years, and knowing that he can gain greater pleasures than sex (read about spinal breathing pranayama,
that is what it is about). It is still sexual energy; nothing has changed, but when it causes orgasmic feelings in other parts of the body people don't call it sex; they call it prana or life force, or chi. So if you saw a very sexy woman and felt an orgasmic feeling in your arm, would you say your seed had jumped? I usually feel it in my chest in response to a woman.
And then the next step is what EMC says, not identifying with the body that has those sensations.
But again, nothing is annihilated; only the perception changes.
Hi emc, Ether & All,
First - Bravo, to both of you!!
Very nicely expressed!
And yes: sex indeed has been demonized ... because the original teachings on sexuality and yoga were misinterpreted.
All the original Tantric teachings amounted to, were: just as food, drink, sensual pleasure, breathing, mind and sexuality can be used to keep consciousness anchored in the dream ... each/all of these things can be supports for awakening, and expanding beyond limited misperceptions (i.e. they each can be a hindrance, or a support - depending upon how they're perceived and used .... and at essence, nothing natural is inherently bad, wrong or limiting .... it is only the distorted/limited perceptions and concept which are distorting or limiting).
Somehow, this got twisted into sex and the body being "bad" ... and, as most of us have noticed ... nothing could be further from the truth!
One of the most important realizations that any of us can ever have is:
The limited me doesn't need to overcome anything .... awareness overcomes by expanding beyond the limited me!
The inherent biological conditioning of the body-mind is natural; the conceptual conditioning of the mind-memory is artificial.
Just as enlightened bodies breathe, enlightened bodies have sex.
It's just that the bodies have sex; the minds don't ... sex is physical, not mental (lust is mental, not physical; arousal is physical, not mental) ... quite the revelation for most of us ... and one that I thank Paramahamsa Nithyananda for eloquently and good-naturedly bringing to light, in this video:
Video: Paramahamsa Nithyananda- From Lust To Liberation.
Liberation is liberation from conceptual limitation.
Regarding sex, regarding everything.
Living, unbound is living unbound from the limited concept of the me.
Is "seed jumping" wrong?
Is "seed jumping" right?
Neither.
"Seed jumping" is "seed jumping".
It's something body-minds do; it's a response ... just as breathing harder when walking uphill, or sweating when exercising, is a response.
Natural responses have nothing to do with enlightenment.
Unnatural concepts prevent awareness of enlightenment.
Drop the conceptions .... and enjoy the liberation of enjoying it all ... in wholeness, in fullness ... in the natural loving awareness that is the heart of it all; that is the heart of each/all of us, now.
Intending Awareness Loving; Intending Loving Awareness, for All,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 20 2009 9:30:14 PM |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 02:13:15 AM
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well put all of u. must say u have it in u guys.. great
i only thought that even the 'limited me' in these sages would not fall to these seed jumps. cause i thought hey the limited me goes away, or atleast the sexual arousal part of teh limited me, maybe the playful limited me reamins in those really advanced people. |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 04:28:15 AM
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| well.. sexual arousal on seeing a beautiful women to be exact. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 07:06:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by fcry64
i only thought that even the 'limited me' in these sages would not fall to these seed jumps. cause i thought hey the limited me goes away, or atleast the sexual arousal part of teh limited me, maybe the playful limited me reamins in those really advanced people.
Ah, I see you assume the sexual arousal and the seed jumps IS a part of the limited me. What if it isn't? That's what we're trying to point you to!
As I see it you basically think right! I don't think the playful limited me remains! The 'limited me' in the sages is vanished as you first assumed, so they do NOT fall to these seed jumps! You are right! Yet the seed jumps exist as a natural bodily response - bodies can't help it, they're created that way. So then, the sexual arousal part and the seed jumping CAN NOT be a part of the limited me, can it? As Kirtanman said: lust is mental, not physical; arousal is physical, not mental. The little me is mental. Barry Long always talks about this "lusting after a woman". It's the lusting that belongs to the little me, not the physical response. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 7:13:34 PM
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Perhaps the real question is:
If the seed jumps, do you jump with it? |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 03:17:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Yet the seed jumps exist as a natural bodily response - bodies can't help it, they're created that way. So then, the sexual arousal part and the seed jumping CAN NOT be a part of the limited me, can it?
i thought they can transcend divine consciousness to the bodily level .. and hence they bodies too won't have seed jumps .. thats what i think though ..
like one persons body has more seed jumps , the other person's body has very less jumps .. but teh saints body, wich is said to have undergone changes due to teh ayp, does it still succumb to seed jumps ? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 04:41:55 AM
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Wonderful questions!
Yes, I see what you mean. "The mind is the body - the body is the mind", right? So bodies should then be a reflection of the state of the mind. Hm. Yes, in a sense that is true. For example, I have found that a man's penis is hard when the erection comes from egoic sexuality. When going into presence, the penis slacks a bit and is softly erected... still erected, though - must be meant to be making love!
Perhaps saints are those persons that before were so different in seed jumping levels, and that that difference continues to exist after sainthood??? Some saints have their seed jump more than others, and some might never have the seed jump?
Speaking from own experience, I have always been a highly sexual person, but the further I go on this journey, I get less and less aroused in the old sexual way. The usual "triggers" don't work anylonger! Hardly ever any sexual thoughts, no fantasies... they just don't come as they used to. |
Edited by - emc on Jul 22 2009 06:20:17 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 09:42:17 AM
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emc, that sounds like it could be scary. I mean, i don't want to lose my sexually aroused feelings when i get a little older. Sex, food - bring it on!!
I guess an interesting question would be why looking at a pretty face can stimulate lust rather than admiration. That's slightly wrong tho i suppose, since for me it is the complete package, body and face, hair, toes etc. I'm going to have a jolly good time when i get old and look like a shrivelled prune hehehe. Then all my fantasies will come crashing down and land in a big pile of steamy donkey mess. I guess in the end, love endures while physical attraction perishes along with the cadaver. If i wake up in an astral world i will keep my looks though. Not quite Robert Downey Jnr but close. Brad Pitt will have to be placed in second position. |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 05:19:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Wonderful questions!
Yes, I see what you mean. "The mind is the body - the body is the mind", right? So bodies should then be a reflection of the state of the mind. Hm. Yes, in a sense that is true. For example, I have found that a man's penis is hard when the erection comes from egoic sexuality. When going into presence, the penis slacks a bit and is softly erected... still erected, though - must be meant to be making love!
Perhaps saints are those persons that before were so different in seed jumping levels, and that that difference continues to exist after sainthood??? Some saints have their seed jump more than others, and some might never have the seed jump?
Speaking from own experience, I have always been a highly sexual person, but the further I go on this journey, I get less and less aroused in the old sexual way. The usual "triggers" don't work anylonger! Hardly ever any sexual thoughts, no fantasies... they just don't come as they used to.
hey.. nice reply, appreciate ur honest attitude..
but i dint wanna intend body= mind and vice versa. all i meant in teh last post was since teh body undergoes many changes due to teh spiritual practises, do that changes count or not, in eliminating the 'body helplessness to get the seed jump' as or so someone put it. to complemnet it, i gave teh example of a person havin a large no. of seed jumps and another havin less.. hence i proposed a saints body, having undergone changes spiritually, will still be a prey to seed jumps |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 05:20:39 AM
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| or not. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 1:00:26 PM
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| Seeds jump. |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 4:34:54 PM
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or grow into a plant bearin fruits if nurtured n mothered  |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 4:53:49 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 4:58:52 PM
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Hi All:
I have moved this interesting topic from Gurus to Tantra, so it will be easier to find in the future.
Also, I have taken my first response here, added additional details, and included it as a Q&A in the online tantra lessons (#T67): http://www.aypsite.org/T67.html
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 8:25:42 PM
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| Hi fcry64. The truth of the matter is this: the advanced yogi's seed never jumps. This is because it is always already elevated by everything, including himself - which of course is of no consequence to him. For the beautiful girls he is also always already elevated, as he is for everything else. In truth, you are right, there are real physical changes: the advanced yogi is (literally) on the verge of orgasm all the time, but without ever feeling the hint of a need to go further, or even considering the possibility, or even having the need to do anything at all to continue in this state. In this he reflects and actualizes the eternal unfolding of that which thou art. All 'moments' for him/her, are thus an eternity without resolution or division from this be-coming, which is all different, but in that respect the same. This is also the real reason pre-orgasmic bliss is cultivated in tantra. Coming is just a moment in the 'time,' of attraction and aversion. Be-coming (ie: continuous pre-orgasmic state) has no beginning or end, and is the condition for the possibility of existence. I hope my opinion is some small help, and that you may experience something like this soon. All The Best, dfb |
Edited by - divinefurball on Jul 23 2009 8:53:02 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 8:59:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi All:
I have moved this interesting topic from Gurus to Tantra, so it will be easier to find in the future.
Also, I have taken my first response here, added additional details, and included it as a Q&A in the online tantra lessons (#T67): http://www.aypsite.org/T67.html
All the best!
The guru is in you.
Wow, thank you Yogani.
Read the lesson in the quote everyone; it says it all! |
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fcry64
India
53 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2009 : 12:00:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by divinefurball
Hi fcry64. The truth of the matter is this: the advanced yogi's seed never jumps. This is because it is always already elevated by everything, including himself - which of course is of no consequence to him. For the beautiful girls he is also always already elevated, as he is for everything else. In truth, you are right, there are real physical changes: the advanced yogi is (literally) on the verge of orgasm all the time, but without ever feeling the hint of a need to go further, or even considering the possibility, or even having the need to do anything at all to continue in this state. In this he reflects and actualizes the eternal unfolding of that which thou art. All 'moments' for him/her, are thus an eternity without resolution or division from this be-coming, which is all different, but in that respect the same. This is also the real reason pre-orgasmic bliss is cultivated in tantra. Coming is just a moment in the 'time,' of attraction and aversion. Be-coming (ie: continuous pre-orgasmic state) has no beginning or end, and is the condition for the possibility of existence. I hope my opinion is some small help, and that you may experience something like this soon. All The Best, dfb
thansk for teh reply m8 .. |
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even the greatest yogi has his seed jump?! :P
