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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - May 07 2009 : 02:46:59 AM
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Alwayson, have you attained the rainbow body or experienced the content of any of the terms you use? Are you speaking from direct experience or reporting learned knowledge? What is your aim with this topic?
If something is not self-experienced yet... then it seems we can only rely on what other's have told us about what terms point to. The discussion becomes empty of REAL content and is doomed to become speculation only, based on hearsay, and there is no ability to confirm (for our selves) any of the points of views from any angle.
I left the academic world because they enjoyed so much to speculate and compare point of views about other's theories and terms. And I assure you, that is an endless road. Then it eventually comes down to comparing sources and judging the reliability and validity of those sources, and trying to find new sources of information to hit the others in the head with.  All with the aim of trying to "proove your point of view". In a such discussion, repeating the same argument over and over again does not make it more valid. To be academically superior new arguments must always be found to overshine the combattants.
Are you mostly interested in the former - is your intent merely to have an academic intellectual discussion here, or are you also experiencing any of the things you mention above? If we don't go to our inner source on spiritual matters, we are relying on outer sources. Will it satisfy us, make us peaceful and loving towards all human beings? Nope. I eventually found it to be so much more rewarding to experience myself.
I'd love to hear some of your own stuff or personal verifications of what you claim to know, if you'd like to share!
"Buddhist Dzogchen view is beyond the intellect and concepts." Are you?
Love, emc |
Edited by - emc on May 07 2009 03:25:35 AM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 10:38:44 AM
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| Hi, I would still genuinly like to have a better idea of the use/meaning of the word 'merit' in Dzogchen Buddhist thought if anyone could help. With respect to all, divinefurball |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 1:07:32 PM
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emc,
I agree. I do not even know if the rainbow body exists from personal experience. I said that before in this thread. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 07 2009 1:23:11 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 2:41:58 PM
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Oh, I'm sorry, I must have missed that post. Thank you for your honesty! I must add, that I think that sometimes there's nothing wrong with having academic discussions - much useful knowledge can be shared through those, particularly when it starts with a clear question as this topic did. In combination with own reports they can actually be delightful, so please continue to share your wisdom and knowledge in forum!
Love, emc |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 4:40:37 PM
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lol, I don't have any knowledge or wisdom, except in a literal sense.
There is a wisdom or yeshe "current" that flows in everyone's body which is used to obtain rainbow body as far as I minimally understand.
But this stretches my comprehension at this point. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 07 2009 4:47:15 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 5:38:58 PM
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Hi alwayson. you said: "There is a wisdom or yeshe "current" that flows in everyone's body which is used to obtain rainbow body". Thank you very much, that is a valuable contribution and I appreciate it. It sounds like it must have something to do with merit as you were describing it. I will have to give it some thought and do some research. Thank you again.
If anyone else knows anything about this topic, I would appreciate thier sharing.
Wishing the best to all, divinefurball |
Edited by - divinefurball on May 07 2009 5:53:42 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 7:42:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Alwayson,
You seem to be contradicting yourself at every turn. You say that enlightenment is the same as atainment of the rainbow body, and then you say the thread is only about the atainment of the rainbow body and not about enlightenment. 
Buddhism is not another name for dependent origination. Dependent origination is a Buddhist teaching, and is given more importance in some schools than others. It basically says that ignorance leads, through a succession of causal links, to perpetuation in a cycle of rebirth. Nothing more than that. It was one of the teachings of the Buddha, but I would say, not one of his most important teachings. The Buddha never said that an acceptance of the doctrine of dependent origination was necessary either for the attainment of enlightenment or for the attainment of the rainbow body. He also never said that acceptance of the doctrine was necessary in order to practice the Dharma.
The Buddha also never said that attainment of the rainbow body was synonymous with enlightenment. I feel it is important to get some of these facts straight, otherwise we could start going down the road of fundamentalist sectarianism.
Incidentally, the only person I have met who had attained a rainbow body (body of divine glory) was a Christian. It is not really the rainbow body itself which appears as a normal body. That body which appears as a normal body is an emination of the rainbow body (referred to in the Pali Cannon as a mind-made body). The rainbow body itself looks a bit different from a normal human body. It is bigger, and shines with an incredible numinous light that would blind an average human being.
Christi
Emptiness is another name for Buddha. Nature of mind is another name for emptiness. Buddha-nature is another name for nature of mind. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 7:45:01 PM
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| Everybody stop. Sit still. Do nothing. See mind. Try that. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 7:50:05 PM
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I assumed some people on this forum have already realized the nature of mind.
I discovered the nature of mind about two years ago. Not that there is an I.
I is just a thought literally. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 07 2009 11:02:44 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 9:30:13 PM
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Hi all. Why not just continue on and conduct a civil discussion, share information, and see what we can discover together about the thread topic? With hope for the best, divinefurball
PS: Konchok Ösel Dorje, Christi, EMC, alwayson, and others, I very much appreciate your remarks. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 11:40:58 PM
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Hi All,
Here's an interesting site that might be pertinent/useful to this discussion:
http://www.rainbowbody.net/
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Edited by - Kirtanman on May 08 2009 2:02:35 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 09:46:07 AM
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| The mind that says, "This is My view," is really suffering. |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 10:43:43 AM
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| Hi Kirtanman, thanks for that. There sure are a lot of links over there. I was doing a little googling to, and I found this in a preview of Lama Yeshe's book Becoming The Compassion Buddha: "The psychological process when you meditate on emptyness is that all your conceptualizations of what you are, how you are, all your ego projections, are dissolved; these appearances totally dissipear from you consciousness. What remains is wisdom energy, and that wisdom is transformed into the divine, radient light body of Avalokeshvara. Another way of saying it is that you have a psychic wisdom body, a conscious mental body, like a rainbow body. It is not one that you can physically touch and say, "There it is," but it is perfectly, totally existent....Sometimes people just think that they have powerfull tantric methods and can transform poison into the path, that they are yogis or yoginis and can do anything. In fact, thats just ego. You have to be carefull. Even if you have some power, you must be very carefull about the effect you have on other people." Maybe some of you can find some other pertainent material. With thanks for your contributions divinefurball |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 11:28:48 AM
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Some more fine words by Lama Yeshe: When we practice tantric yoga method sadhanas and transform our consciousness into the transcendent, rainbow body of our meditation deity we should simultaneously recognize the unity of the rainbow body and its non-dual nature. The rainbow body of the deity is totally non-dual. Non-duality and the transformation, the transcendent experience of the clean clear, crystal rainbow body, are completely one. It’s like it’s there, but it’s not there. If you were to try to touch it, it would be like trying to touch a rainbow. Your hand can’t feel it yet there’s something there. It’s real; there’s some energy there. You can’t say that a rainbow isn’t real because you can’t touch it by hand.
Sometimes when I’m watering my garden there’s a rainbow in the spray. If there are any students around, we’ll have a conversation about the reality of a rainbow. Our physical senses are really gross, and because a rainbow is relatively insubstantial, we tend to think it’s nonexistent. But a rainbow is as existent as a concrete wall. We can’t say that a wall is more existent than a rainbow just because it feels solid to the touch. Both are equally real.
How does a rainbow exist? Through the coming together of various factors, such as water, light and so forth. It’s an interdependent phenomenon that simply reflects the combined energies that make it up. That’s the way in which it exists and that’s all there is to what we call a rainbow. We know it’s not solid, that it’s simply a conglomeration of parts to which we give the name rainbow.
The way in which the transformation—the transcendent experience of the divine deity body—exists is exactly the same as the way in which a rainbow exists. In reality it, too, exists but in experiencing unification we recognize it as non-dual, non-self-existent and insubstantial. There’s nothing physical to touch; it’s simply the reflection of a combination of parts in the mirror of wisdom. Although it is a clearly apparent vision, completely transparent, simultaneously it is absolutely non-dual in nature.
By developing this kind of awareness, we become more sensitive and our dull, animal attitude is eliminated. We become more sensitive to the subtler aspects of reality. Then even concrete walls can appear to us as insubstantial and as something we can perhaps pass through. We can have such powerful experiences.
Perhaps you’ve heard stories of some of the early Mahayana yogis and yoginis who left imprints of their hand in stone or stepped into rocks as if they were pools of water. We think these are simply magic tricks, hypnotic illusions. That’s not true. We don’t believe such things are possible because of our limited view of the nature of material energy but such things are not only possible, they happened.
I’ve seen people on TV smashing a pile of bricks with their bare hands. It looks like magic. If I brought a pile of bricks into this room, how many of you could smash even one with your bare hands? It looks like a magic trick, but it’s not. We know that there are people everywhere who can do this. How do they explain it? They say that instead of regarding the bricks as physical they regard them more as a concentration of energy and by focusing their minds they are able to smash them by hand.
Our problem is that when we are faced with something like this, inside us there’s a mind going, “Impossible, impossible, impossible. I can’t, I can’t, I can’t.” We have to banish that mind from this solar system. Anything is possible; everything is possible. Sometimes you feel that your dreams are impossible, but they’re not. Human beings have great potential; they can do anything. The power of the mind is incredible, limitless.
In the meditation session, then, we try to experience the unity of insubstantiality, non-self-existence, and the blissful, radiant, rainbow body and single-pointedly contemplate on that. But then you might ask, “It’s all very well doing this in retreat but what happens when I get back home and have to go to work? How can I meditate on non-self-existence in the real world?”
The answer is that if you can have an experience of non-duality during formal meditation, when you are out and about during the breaks, working or doing whatever else you do, when you look at the objects of the sense world you can simultaneously perceive their non-duality. Then the normal concrete vision that once made you feel small and insignificant no longer dominates your life.
When you’re at a retreat course you should be contemplating in this way all the time: during the meditation and discourse sessions and when you get up and go outside during the breaks, as well. As I always say, you should make the break times meditation sessions too. Transform everybody you see as well as all other objects into the divine Manjushri rainbow body and recognize the unity of the blissful light body and non-duality.
People have different experiences when they try to meditate. For example, you might find that for the first half of a one-hour session, your concentration is good, but for the last half hour it’s impossible. Too much superstition arises. This shows that your energy is unbalanced. You put too much energy into the beginning of your session and when it’s used up, you come down. Sometimes this can simply be result of physical weakness and eating food or having a drink can solve the problem. More often it’s a result of unskillful practice. Instead of putting all that effort into the beginning of the session, start off in a more relaxed fashion and try to ration your mental energy so that it lasts the entire hour.
Other people find that they have too many superstitions at the beginning of the session but that after about thirty minutes they settle down and their concentration is good from then on. That’s often the fault of not being mindful before the session begins and bringing outside influences into the session with you. Because of that, you don’t have enough penetrative energy at the start, but as the outside influences wear off, your concentration improves. In the previous example you needed to slacken your energy at the beginning; here you need to put in more effort at the start.
Meditation means working with mental energy, so you need to be sensitive to how much fuel you’re adding to the fire. If you don’t put in enough, the fire dies out. If you put in too much, it finishes too quickly. You should learn from experience how much effort to exert at which time.
Also, when you meditate, you can start speculating: “Now I’m a meditator. Before, I wasn’t a meditator. Perhaps today I’ll get enlightened.” You start to think about the past, present and future. That’s not good; that, too, is superstition. Make a conscious effort to stop stimulating discursive thought. Some people distract themselves by thinking, “This is great; I’m getting beautiful visions. I’m blissful.” Or you might start visualizing others having a good time, dancing or whatever, and get caught up in being a spectator, distracting yourself in that way. All this is just more superstition. Perhaps you start intellectualizing, “Let me see if I can become nothingness” or “Let me see if I can visualize the most beautiful deity.” This sort of mental expression is distraction; it is in the nature of superstition.
The main point of contemplation, of visualizing this evolution into the deity, is to stop your ego and superstition from functioning, so all such mental speculation is uptight energy that only makes you more uptight. It is much better to be a bit loose, relaxed. When your mind arrives at the object of contemplation, just leave it alone; let it go. Don’t worry; just contemplate.
You know what Zen masters say: “When you cut, cut; when you cook, cook; when you eat, eat.” That’s good. When you contemplate, contemplate. That’s enough. Don’t start thinking, “Great; my concentration is really good.” It’s superstition; it’s no good. When your mind settles on the object of contemplation, loosen up; let it go.
But “loosen up” doesn’t mean be unaware. You have to maintain awareness; retain mindfulness. The connotation of “loose” and “let go” is when you’re mind is in the right channel, loosen it and let it go instead of thinking this and that, binding it with the rope of discursive thought.
Even if thoughts come, one after the other, most of them are objects; they’re not your subjective mind. No matter what those objects are, transform them into the divine, blissful, rainbow body of the deity and allow them to sink into you, the deity.
Lama Yeshe gave this teaching at Manjushri Institute, England, in July 1977. Edited from the Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive by Nicholas Ribush.
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 12:16:18 PM
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I am going to speak from personal experience for once.
One key to the whole thing is realize "I" is a thought literally.
If you doubt this, take one day and narrate your day in the following way. When you are walking up stairs, repeat mentally "I am walking up stairs." Go to a public place and especially narrate mundane details, such as "I see wrinkles in that girl's jacket." Focus on mundane sounds. Like if you go to the mall on this day, and you hear a baby crying, repeat mentally a couple of times "I hear a baby crying". Do this the enire day in conjugtion with the second key.
The second key is to realize there is no such thing as time. Time is purely a manmade invention. I welcome counterarguments to this, because I will prove that time does not exist except as a thought in the head. There is only one moment in time ever.
The third key is focusing on physical emotions in the physical chakras when interacting with people. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 08 2009 2:17:21 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 1:43:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
I am going to speak from personal experience for once.
One key to the whole thing is realize "I" is a thought literally.
If you doubt this, take one day and narrate your day in the following way. When you are walking up stairs, repeat mentally "I am walking up stairs." Go to a public place and especially narrate mundane details, such as "I see wrinkles in that girl's jacket." Focus on mundane sounds. Like if you go to the mall on this day, and you hear a baby crying, repeat mentally a couple of times "I hear a baby crying". Do this this enire day in the conjugtion of the second key.
The second key is to realize there is no such thing as time. At all. Time is purely a manmade invention. I welcome counterarguments to this, because I will prove that time does not exist except as a thought in the head. There is only one moment in time ever.
The third key is focusing on physical emotions in the physical chakras when interacting with people.
Ya know.. for the first time I agree with you.. on at lease two of three points (maybe because they come from your silence? ).. the "I" is a thought created by the mind ("I", "me" and "mine" keep us bound to this world, hence spiritual practices.. to go beyond the mind.. to become free from the attachment to the "I" thought), time and space are created by the mind. The third.. well I am not sure what you mean by keeping focus on the chakras when interacting with people? How does that help Alwayson? |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 2:13:27 PM
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Theres more...
Once you realize that you only exist as a thoughtform packet in your head
...you realize that other people in your life, your friends and family, ONLY exist as thoughtform packets in your own mind (and in their own minds as well).
And also you realize that noone can ever accomplish worldy things, because first off they don't have inherent existence. Secondly there is no time. Third, what is really is happening is that matter is just moving around. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 08 2009 2:19:29 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 2:57:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
what is really is happening is that matter is just moving around.
What's the matter then?
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 5:34:04 PM
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| There is nothing the matter |
Edited by - alwayson on May 08 2009 5:34:49 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 6:02:23 PM
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Hi alwayson. Ha Ha Ha! Ha Ha Ha Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, alwayson! Surely your jokes alone will make you the stuff of legend!! In the process of your transformation you are emerging as a true trickster god, perhaps even greater than Shiva, as you earlier suggested. When I was out looking for the Lama as you directed, you were composing your swan song for us and getting ready to give more of your self! I was sure your oblique communication to me about the Yeshe energy was a clue as to where I might find my new Lama and some insight into merit. I am sure now, too, that it was a wild goose chase - a ruse on your part, so I would not be distracting you with my adulation, while you composed yourself for the final effort. What a pleasent surprise you prepared for me! - Though I really should be truly ashamed that I'm glad your still here. Truly now there is no need for us to consult the Lama I brought, as you have reached your moment of achievment and have even issued a challange, in the full Knowledge that in your View, You can now never be Mastered and are Infallible. This non-dual unity of martial bearing and spiritual wisdom, alwayson, is a testement to the modesty of your teaching, and the nature of its service. Who could imagine contesting you! That is perhaps your best joke yet!! It is right for you to establish your lineage this way, but I think we need a special thread for your jokes, to insure that the lineage be passed on in a coherent form - if such a thing is imaginable. It could be entitled say, "You are right alwayson and on and on and on....." This would help express the infinite aspect of your approching dignity, and also the reverance you so richly deserve.
I prostrate myself before the infinite compassion and nobility you so clearly express, pray for those closest to you, and for all the other infinite sentient beings from whom you have made yourself distant: for the compassion you have is not of this world.
Why do you not wish to embrace your fellow beings in this world in compassion, as well? Is it not worthwhile?
with hope, divinefurball |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 7:22:50 PM
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Have you been reading the cannabis thread?
Regarding the yeshe current, you aren't going to find information on that unless you are reading some hardcore Dzogchen books. Yeshe connects to the sushumna (center channel). And then the sushumna connects to the kati channels. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 08 2009 8:19:16 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 8:45:48 PM
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| Hi alwayson. Thank you for responding, I have not read the cannibis thread. But I appreciate your offering more information. Please tell me where I can find the material that shoud be read, and elaborate on all you know. With real appreciation for actual information, divinefurball |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 10:17:11 PM
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| borrow from your library "Approaching the Great Perfection" by Sam van Schaik |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 11:43:52 PM
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| Hi alwayson. This is excellent. I thank you for the information, and will inter-library loan order it on monday. It will be at least a week before I get it, but that will be fine and give me time to reflect a bit. With best wishes. divinefurball |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2009 : 10:10:43 AM
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| You can go beyond thought, but you can't go beyond the mind. Yoga is the cessation of the modifications of the mind. Know that the entire Cosmos is encompassed by Mind. |
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Buddhism, The Rainbow Body and Enlightenment
