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 Guru Kaliuttamananda Giri Swami Ganga Puri -SwamiG
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mufad

44 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2008 :  10:50:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit mufad's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hi Friends,
For the past few months, I had joined the online ashram of SwamiG.
Some of her students have made websites for her like
http://kundalinisupport.com/
http://guruswamig.com/

She has video satsangs and diksha experiences of students on youtube, and her online ashram is a yahoogroups group so all achieved exchanges with all past and present students is available to be viewed by all members, including the 8 people who are believed to have reached realisation through her.

She has said that her guru verbally abused her and that caused her to go deep and enter realisation. That seems to give her licence to abuse any student for no conceivable reason. She calls it Kali Energy that cuts the head of ego. In the beginning I understood this and withstood her misunderstandings and beatings thinking that she knows what she is doing, but now after observing the same pattern occurring repeatedly I doubt her. Her negativity is not only directed to students, but it projects in her outlook - for example she posted this before gurupoornima

quote:


Every year the Guru's from this path sit at home -- answering mails
and seeing the posts Gee Thanks for being here.... Now i have a
question for you to take care of....... Is One day a year to much of
a stretch for people to actually get up off their butts to do more than
place a gratuitous post ? Every year this brings a great sadness to
the Heart that when so much is being given and has been given that
so little is done by the Sadhaka's to show their appreciation to the
Guru's for the Light and Wisdom which came at a heavy cost.... Am
glad this year will be in a hotel in Hawaii versus in an empty home
online answering question after question.... It is unbelievable that not
even flowers are sent to the Guru's
.... Are Guru's worth so little ?




Another example of negativity towards other realised sages
quote:


Yesterday was *supposed* to be Guru's day off ---- and it wound
up that we answered mails in the morning and came back to a full
day of mails that have to be answered today as well as this days
mails on top of it.....

This is the problem when everyone volunteers and it lasts one week
then never mind Guru will take care of it all.....

One day this Guru will drop the form ---- Have 6 been brought to
Realization besides the Guru's only to allow things to simply fall
apart out of lack of Seva...... Can not an hour a day be given to
aide other seekers ?




More Complaining and Negativity
quote:


the form has diabetes simply because day in and day out has
been spent on the computer answering all questions that come giving out
what light me be given.... It is a stress to read mail after mail of mistaken
mindsets and do what is possible to shake them loose so they may fall away....
One Sacrifices the health so that others may find the Light of Unchanging
Absolute....
This is the reality of the matter.....

while others go out on the weekends to party Guru is still dedicating the
energies towards pulling seekers out of the suffering me complex.....

There is no one here cooking for Guru --- there is no one here cleaning the house...
What time is taken is not for play but solely to keep things moving along as best they
may be..... Other Guru's take time out for meditation and to replenish and only give
Satsangs either once a week or for the more didicated up to one hour per day......
They have Sadhakas that are taking care of their needs so that their energies
may be fully kept as much as possible and in place for giving the precious seed of
Knowledge....

There is precious little of this sort here --- in other Ashrams Guru is chauffered around
here the Guru is the chauffer - the cook - the janitor - etc... When is there time to
take care of the form as it should be..... So yes the stress of being on the net day in
and day out from morning to night takes a toll on the form.... Why isn't Guru in
perfect health ? this is why..... This is the reality of it..... This is the sacrifice of it....
This is the Seva that costs the Guru their life energies..... It takes a lot of energy to
deal with negative mindsets that are in confusion and darkness day in and day out....
To battle against minds that are first centered in their ( it's all about me mode ). Most
are solely seeing things from the angle of how they are being benefited or feeling put
upon and abused..... This is a larger drain upon the forms energy....

Have tried to get a full ashram in place but there are no sadhakas that are willing to
stay there..... they all want their private lives --- so what is the alternative ? Just to
continue to give and give until the form finally gives out..... that or this Guru could just
walk away and be able to enjoy the hard won Bliss ----- but there is no Bliss when having
to keep the energies engaged in wrestling with the seekers mindsets that remain in the
stirred up mud......





Regarding Her Anger, She says
quote:


Now as far as this idea that Real Realized beings never get angry and are always in a syrupy loving mode and if not then they are not going to measure up to Mufads idea of what he thinks it should be.... Look at Christ --- There was Anger --- There was Action in throwing over the money changers tables... Are you saying that Christ was a fake ?




She Posted this recently
quote:



Seekers have no idea why Guru's do what they do ----
Seekers see through flawed eyes and only from the small picture...
Why would a Sadhaka be sent away ?
For one, when insolence and disrespect for the Guru
raises it's head the Sadhaka only is digging a hole for himself ...
Each infraction and marked display of disrespect only works
to dissolve the Grace which Guru has imparted.... When the
Sadhaka has used up all the Grace from Transmissions then
no matter how much greener the grass may seem elsewhere
Nothing that Sadhaka does will afford him any progress....
How can you Disrespect the Direct Truth and then have any illusions
that the Universe is going to continue to Bless you
.... You are
rather constructing a difficult karmic path which you won't want
to walk....
THEREFORE this Guru in Grace and Compassion will cut you off
from the Ashram BEFORE you fully Bankrupt the Grace that has been
imparted.... Before you have dug a hole that will require Lifetimes of
hardship before being given another opportunity for forward motion....
This is the Grace and Compassion of Guru ----






and

quote:



The Guru gives Seva through Tapashya --- Rather than living Fully
in Bliss this is put aside to give the Love needed to break through the
ill-usions...
Rather than giving Sermons and lovely speeches that one may
either attempt to adopt or lay aside and which will pump up the
ego convincing it that it is a divine co-creator and pulls the sadhaka
only as far as oneness ---- This Guru wants to see the Sadhaka's
enter into the full Freedom of Realization.... Trust this it is much
easier to give lovely speeches and stirring affirmations that keep
egos feeling cozy and loved but it is Tough Love that is willing to
bear the judgements and mistaken notions by sadhaka's in order
to move them beyond oneness and lower samadhi bliss....
So judge if you will ---- but be careful you don't dig a hole
you cannot get out of for lifetimes.... Keep your tongue and
either go forward in glad humility or leave quietly and seek
what it is you think you need that you aren't finding here....
Do not judge less you be judged....
What does it mean that Guru can save you from God but none
can save you from the Guru ????
It means that Guru gives the light and Grace which may
turn your life around and mitigate much karma that you
would have had to pay.... Guru brings a Transmission of
GRACE...
When the Guru washes their hands of you then none
may help you....







Could a person who posts the above be a true Guru ?

What do you feel ?

Thank You,
Mufad.

PS:

To be fair to her, I did not find in her any greed for money or any interest in phenomena or miracles.
All her communications are open and truthful.

I am no longer in her ashram as she kicked me out for a period of one month because she said I was showing disrespect to her.

Edited by - mufad on Sep 21 2008 11:27:18 PM

Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2008 :  11:16:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The whole idea of needing a guru is old school. If you feel you need a guru than maybe you do, but it is not necessary anymore. The spiritual energy has increased to such a level that we can do it on our own.
Not that there is anything wrong with gurus. They have their purpose and some people need them for a while, some need them forever.

But there is no hard and fast rule that a guru is needed anymore. Many people don't need them at all, some have a guru who doesn't live in a body. I have had many gurus, most who didn't even call themselves that. Now my guru is within myself. I feel it is separate from me, but some say it is not.
Only you know if you need her or not, and what is more important is not whether she is authentic, but how much can she help you.
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Sep 22 2008 :  12:12:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mufad,

"You attract more flies with honey than vinegar."

What more can I say?

Best, yb.
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Scott

USA
969 Posts

Posted - Sep 22 2008 :  10:40:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit Scott's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
what is more important is not whether she is authentic, but how much can she help you.


I agree 100%. If she is authentic (which I believe) but can't help you, then what's the point? Move on. That's what I did.

If you think you can handle her abusiveness, then follow her and see what happens. I wasn't able to handle it personally...but maybe some can.

And just so you know, she's wrong about this:

quote:
When the Guru washes their hands of you then none
may help you....


Totally wrong. And SHE isn't the guru...she's got that wrong as well. If only the enlightened ones could be rational sometimes, it'd help a lot. But I think it's too late to discuss this with her and maybe see a change...she seems to be completely unconscious of herself. That's something she should've dealt with earlier on in the path, before she lost her sense of herself. Now if you bring it up, it'll make no sense to her.

But yeah, just know that you can move on and find a better teaching that points more towards the truth. It's your right as a human being...she has no power over that.
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newpov

USA
183 Posts

Posted - Sep 22 2008 :  12:35:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit newpov's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
mufad,

You are a child of the living God, and you are attempting to realize this for yourself, such is your desire. The race is long, it will most likely be exhausting perhaps--only those who hunger, and thirst as well, will be filled with righteousness!

Would this lady dare elevate her sight above yours? "One up, one down" is passe. Eyes at a level! Please, don't give your power away to another human being!

newpov
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riptiz

United Kingdom
741 Posts

Posted - Sep 22 2008 :  6:21:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit riptiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,
I actually looked at her group some time ago and quite frankfully was dismayed at her attitude to others.She seems to be of the opinion that because she is 'enlightened' or 'the guru' that she should command respect and obedience.There's an old saying that we earn respect not that we have a right to it.
L&L
Dave
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mufad

44 Posts

Posted - Sep 25 2008 :  05:16:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit mufad's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by riptiz

Hi,
I actually looked at her group some time ago and quite frankfully was dismayed at her attitude to others.She seems to be of the opinion that because she is 'enlightened' or 'the guru' that she should command respect and obedience.There's an old saying that we earn respect not that we have a right to it.
L&L
Dave



Hi Dave,
Yes, that is it, she seems to have a need for respect, which periodically results in egoic outburts targeted at students who would dare to ask any question. She makes demands for respect and ruthlessly abuses students with accusations of argumentation, arrogance, disrespect, anger, insolence, sarcasm etc - most of which is ussually not there and is only perceived by her from missunderstanding.

Here is what she posted one day about respect

quote:

Namaste




In the Presence of the Guru

It is time to Understand what is required when interacting with Any Guru....
Here people have been way to lax, to the point of out and out disrespect...
This is Draining on the Guru's form....

Guru is there to hold out the Pearl of Great Price and to do so has come
on the heels of great sacrifice along the way.... There is NO Guru or
Tradition that would Allow such casual attitudes to flourish such as
what has been taking place here year after year..... None would ever
continue to allow those who bring disrespectful arguments to continue
to be given Grace.

Since it has come to the point of this Guru being drained to the point of
collapse and none are mindful of this then it is time to have to put forth
Rules and admonishments...

So here is a link to what other paths hold to when interacting with a Guru
and this is Quite the Standard anywhere else:

http://community.palouse.net/lotus/fiftyp4.htm

THIS IS MANDATORY READING AND MUST BE UNDERSTOOD
BEFORE DIKSHA WILL BE GIVEN.... (now reflect on what has been
the attitude here and why this has to end)

IN order to continue to hold the Energy of this Path in place this Guru needs
to have time to replenish the energy.... There is no Guru that does not take
much time in mediation and time alone to do so.... Even Christ who only
worked 3 years Took time out alone to replenish.... Do you think that this
Guru needs less ? All Guru's especially lineage holders NEED to have time
to replenish or else they are headed for an early loss of the form.... There
are
Sages enough to give what is needed at the Online Ashram.... The Guru's
should be given time and space to be able to hold the energetic level in
place that is needed..... There has been no time in History that so many
are making such rapid progress and to continue this trend the Guru has
to hold the energetic center in place.... This REQUIRES that the Guru has
time to replenish....

It is with great sadness that it has to come to the point of saying enough
is enough and now there is no other option but for this Guru to put the
foot down and say the Guru's home must have Silence ---- the Guru is
not here to entertain - drive - or be the Sadhaka's hang out buddy....
The Guru is not here to be a tour guide - Sadhaka's are to come in
humility with great respect for what the Guru is willing to give.......
Every Second of Darshan is a GREAT BOON...



1. Any wishing to come Must first clear it and not just assume that the Guru
will make time to spend days on end with them....

2. At most 1 hour a day should be sufficient .... (this is
55 minutes more than any other Guru will give in one to one
attention...)

3. Sadhaka's should have their questions ready that pertain to
the path and their Sadhana

4. Please make reservations at a hotel for your stay

5. Either rent a car or Guru will meet with you at the hotel
lobby.

6. You are responsible to provide your own meals.

7. Those requesting Diksha should understand the protocol


A. Flowers

B. Fruit (to be blessed and handed out at Satsang)

C. Dakshina (offering for the Non-profit)

D. Optional is a Guru offering or small gift of gratitude....

E. Diksha Requires that the path is walked in earnest and that
All the mandatory Requirements are met.....

A. All practices done AS Instructed

B. Reports turned in weekly

C. Ongoing contact within Online Ashram

D. Seva offered and given as one has ability to do so

E. Tithing on regular basis (this is up to the sadhaka)

MEDITATION SHOULD BE DONE THE DAY BEFORE IN PREPARATION...


Am greatly saddened that it has to come to this point -- but today was to
the point of such exhaustion that to go forward without these provisions
would most certainly mean that this Guru's form is draining it's life force
out to the point of death by one means or another.... While Yes am quite
willing to Sacrifice (and have done so for Years) there comes a time when
the Reality of the situation must be addressed.... This time has come.....



Maha Shanti OM
0




I believe that the more you give the more you are filled up from the infinite source. If one is getting exausted, depleated and complaining because of giving too much, then may be it is not true selfless giving.

What do others feel ?

Thank You,
Mufad.
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Eitherway

USA
100 Posts

Posted - Sep 25 2008 :  10:18:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Eitherway's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

Sounds like some major purification to me!! I can understand that the demands on the guru could surely be overwhelming, she should take some time off which could surely help her gain a new perspective on the situation.

Mufad, it is quite clear that you and the guru need to part ways. I'm sure you learned a lot from her, even if it wasn't exactly what she intended.

I would recommend following the ayp techniques for a year or so. The buffet is right in front of you, or rather inside or you are the buffet, oh wait there is no buffet (just some advaita humor). Seriously, just do the practices and then with the rise of inner silence, we can just take the best from everyone around us, including gurus, and leave whatever doesn't resonate without making it fodder for the mind.

good luck, eitherway
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newpov

USA
183 Posts

Posted - Sep 25 2008 :  10:35:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit newpov's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
mufad,

On this matter, "Guru is there to hold out the Pearl of Great Price", you might want to read my Amazon review of "Secrets of Wilder" at

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=4493

John wilder experiences some energy drain with some of his experiments. His final gift is not depleting at all.

Don't you find this lady's capitalization of some many words to be extremely wearing and domineering?

You have gained perhaps some things from her, now let her rest. Enough "pile on" ! Move your life on to other things?

newpov
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brother neil

USA
752 Posts

Posted - Sep 25 2008 :  3:29:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
My opininion,
if you have decieded to leave her teachings, then leave and let it be. You are holding onto a mental argument, let it go brother and move on, leave the city and dont look back. You are draining your own energies.
just my opinion.
my best to you brother
i am love, i am light i am peace, i am joy
i am of the one, the same one as you
i am neil
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mufad

44 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  1:04:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit mufad's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Friends,
Thank You for your replies,
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0wWdWCFUsE
Is he possessed or are those strange kriyas because of unfinished past life practices ?
In the video, Swamig brings him to balance and he has now entered realisation, to join the 8 other sages that swamig has brought to realisation.

Here is his interview after the above incident video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMlCkhzN1nQ

I have restarted AYP practices and have no intention right now of going back to swamig, though a small part of me still wonders if I am missing out on the opportunity because of my ego. She has mentioned “So judge if you will ---- but be careful you don't dig a hole
you cannot get out of for lifetimes.... Keep your tongue”

Then why I am making this post instead of “keeping my tongue” ? to get the opinion of people more knowledgeable about these matters, and to help other people to know the facts about swamig, this page now comes first in the search engines, even above her own sites, when someone searches for “Swami Ganga Puri” or “SwamiG” or “Uttammananda” – thank you Yogani.

In my post above, I intentionally left out her correspondence with me, as that bitterness could have been what she thinks I need, but the above quotes are generally directed to all students. For more details about what happened with me see http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=4480

I found that in 2005 one of her students committed suicide which may have been caused due to situations created by her (details at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GuruR...essage/87737 and swamig’s reply at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GuruR...essage/89965 requires signup)


She seems to have some degree of ability to move shakti (she calls it kali energy) but my assessment is that she misunderstands a shift in consciousness from the mind into the right side of chest as enlightment. I feel that there cannot be enlightment without compassion and bliss. I also feel that where there is anger, misunderstanding, complaining and negativity, there cannot be true enlightment.

Following her practices I had found the front right side of my chest vibrating, like there was a vortex of energy there, feels like a stream of bubbles coming out of soda. The colours in nature were brighter when I was doing her practices, but I was loosing contact with my inner bliss and intuitive connection. The stillness I experienced seemed like a negative lethargic one, a tamasic one. Sometimes I felt a weight in the right side of chest area. She calls it the spiritual heart. She instructs students not to focus on the third eye center and always keep attention in the spiritual heart center. The right side of my chest still vibrates occasionally even though I have stopped her practices now.

Does anyone have any idea about the spiritual heart centre at the right of the chest ? Should I stop focusing in that area ? The vibrations increase when listening to music or reading something or before falling asleep at night.

Thank You,
Love,
Mufad.
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Scott

USA
969 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  2:17:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit Scott's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
I found that in 2005 one of her students committed suicide which may have been caused due to situations created by her (details at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GuruR...essage/87737 and swamig’s reply at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GuruR...essage/89965 requires signup)


That's too bad to hear. Really too bad.

But suicide is a choice that comes from the individual...I wouldn't say that Swami G caused it to happen. But perhaps a little less "tough love" would've been good for that person.



quote:
She seems to have some degree of ability to move shakti (she calls it kali energy) but my assessment is that she misunderstands a shift in consciousness from the mind into the right side of chest as enlightment. I feel that there cannot be enlightment without compassion and bliss. I also feel that where there is anger, misunderstanding, complaining and negativity, there cannot be true enlightment.


I tend to agree with her, that what she and her sages have attained is enlightenment. But being enlightened is no excuse to have so many bad tendencies.

I also tend to agree with you, Mufad, that when there are these tendencies there isn't enlightenment.

So what is the issue here? I think she has chosen to act that way because she thinks it's an effective way of helping people.

Of course enlightened people can be wrong.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  2:30:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Really Scott? You think so? You said "Of course enlightened people can be wrong"....

Can a TRUELY enlightened person be wrong? Like dead wrong? I always thought that a truely enlightnened being would have had the veil of illusion lifted and would be able to see everything as it truely is. So the only mistake possible to make would be to verbalize things improperly if even that. Maybe I am wrong and I am putting people like Jesus and Buddha on a pedestal, but I always thought that the whole idea of enlightenment meant that you would no longer allow oneself to make a wrong action/choice/decision etc.

In Love,
Carson
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Scott

USA
969 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  3:02:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit Scott's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
So an enlightened person could walk into my chemistry class on Monday and take my exam for me, and I'd be guaranteed an A+? Of course enlightened people can be dead wrong about things.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  3:26:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I guess I've had the wrong impression all along then, cause yes, I was thinking that an enlightened person like Christ would have had no problem Acing ANY test let alone a chemistry test! I have never met an enlightened being I don't think, so I've never had opportunity to test this theory. I always thought that once permanently connected to the Source of everything how could you NOT know everything!?
In Love,
Carson

Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 16 2008 3:31:54 PM
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yogani

USA
5198 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  3:49:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson:

Enlightened people can fall flat on their face like anyone else. The good news is that it leaves little lasting impression (limited identification), and that is why calamities befalling the enlightened are often accompanied by infectious laughter.

There is additional good news. Because enlightenment is not some distant imaginary perfection, we each will find it to be much closer to what we are experiencing right now. It is very near, and with daily practices, getting nearer all the time. It is ... Now.

For some additional perspective, see this lesson on "enlightenment and perfection": http://www.aypsite.org/260.html

Does this mean an enlightened person can be grumpy? Sure. It also means that they will attract mainly those people who need (or are willing to put up with) a grumpy teacher. Everyone has a choice on how they conduct their life -- both teachers and students. The enlightened and the nearly enlightened.

No one has a corner on the market.

The guru is in you.

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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  4:06:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
That to me doesn't seem enlightened. How can someone be both grumpy AND enlightened? What could a TRUELY enlightened being have to be grumpy about? Christ wasn't "grumpy" about being crucified although he had real cause to be, seeing as he was completely misunderstood and he knew that. To me a truely enlightened being COULD fall flat on their face, but would not. Doesn't the very definition of enlightened mean something like "all knowing" or "all seeing" or something along those lines? How could someone who was all knowing make a mistake? It would have to be on purpose and that would automatically make them UNenlightened. This all seems very much like a contradiction in terms to me.

In Love,
Carson

Please understand that I am just trying to get to the truth here and am not trying to make anyone feel one way or the other for believing something different then I do. All in the name of dialectic conversation.
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Eitherway

USA
100 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  4:29:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Eitherway's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
HI Scott and Carsonzi,

The latter posts come back to what enlightenment is and isn't. Yogani regards enlightenment as a never ending process and also here and now. So complete enlightenment, save for a tiny few over centuries, is probably pointless to talk about.

More importantly, it seems there are teachers who are believed to be self-realized in the sense that they think they are (and they maybe) free of the ego, however, they are in no shape or way even close to perfection. The lack of perfection can be seen in myriad things such as tone and tact used with students, disparaging remarks concerning other paths, heck even eating more than your body requires for subsisting. In addition, there are so many examples of teachers who think they are realized but are clearly operating from an expanded ego instead of one that has drowned in silence. Cue stories about abuse-sexual, financial, emotional, etc....

I think there is a possibility that you can feel self-realized (free of ego) and even have siddhi's while there is still significant work to be done in terms of purification (maybe there are different areas of the neurology in play). The problem is that at this point, the teacher already believes themselves to be completely enlightened and thus doesn't feel like there is anything left to do, other than to live.

The better thing to do would be to continue to work on all aspects of your self (paradox) but obviously this is hard because it again seems to mean that you are not enlightened. Further complicating the scenario are students who are fawning all over the guru and proclaiming how enlightened they are!

I think this scenario will be more common in the quick, short cut routes. Well integrated systems, like ayp, insure that much purification and subsequent improvement in normal functions (cognitive, emotional, social, ....) will precede dramatic experiences of realization.

So, I think persons can be self realized (lose ego) but can appear to be jerks, poor teachers, and miserable humans (see ug krishnamurti).

Also, coming back to whether a self realized person will be able to ace a test or not. I don't have any reason to believe that Jesus would know the tca cycle details from biochemistry without reading about it, but I think along the way on any structured path, the person will gain a lot of abilities (have great level of energy, clarity of thought, a sharp memory, a superior ability to concentrate) that would enable them to be able to do most things they want quicker and more easily than average humans.

take care,
eitherway



Edited by - Eitherway on Oct 16 2008 4:33:46 PM
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yogani

USA
5198 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  4:33:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson:

Ah, but enlightenment is not what we think it is. It is what it is, and that is a paradox -- stillness in action.

As mentioned, that is good news, because as long as we hold enlightenment in mind as this or that, it will be out of reach. It is only in letting go that we become it by degrees. The rise of inner silence within us is the essence of this process.

If someone is abusive, it does not matter whether they are enlightened or not. People will ultimately be judged by their actions, not by what we have imagined them to be, or by what we think they will give us in exchange for putting up with their abuse. It is also questionable whether a "friendly" teacher should be held high up on a pedestal. In either case, we will be stuck in co-dependence.

Ideally, an external teacher will be relatively easy to transcend to something much more that is within us, with no external co-dependence. That is the real challenge in spiritual teaching -- helping others release into direct relationship with their divine Self.

The guru is in you.

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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  4:47:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Eitherway and Yogani,

I understand what you are both saying but I think the confusion is coming over the definition of "TRUELY" enlightened yet again. I understand that enlightenment is an ongoing process that is never really finished, but don't you think that once a certain point is reached, (whatever that point may be) that the ego, feelings/emotions and everything else that normal people have to deal with, falls away never to be picked up again? What could someone who is living in 24/7/365 divine BLISS have to complain, be grumpy, snooty or whatever about? I can't see ANY situation in which Jesus Christ would have gotten unjustifiably emotional. Wouldn't someone who see's through all the maya of this world find better ways of dealing with petty emotions then to give them freedom to express themselves? Why would a truely enlightened being get MAD at someone when there are other ways of dealing with these types of circumstances without letting emotions run wild?
I understand that there are different degree's of enlightenment and I can accept that, but if there WAS such thing as a "truely" enlightened being wouldn't that being have transcended all emotion besides love?

In Love,
Carson
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  4:57:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson

quote:
Christ wasn't "grumpy" about being crucified although he had real cause to be


According to the scripture Jesus fell on his knees in the garden of Getsemane.....asking God if he could possibly take the burden of the crucifiction off his shoulders. But he added - "thy will be done".

So - even Jesus, the enlightened one, was capable of despair....

So much has been added and subtracted over thousands of years regarding what it means to be enlightened......


I can't help it, but keep coming back to "letting go"......."surrender"........

The greater the surrender, the deeper the realization.

And it never stops.......does it.....it is always "Thy will be done"....and it is never anywhere else but right here.

Right now.

I thought that was all there was to know......that omniscience was the perception of NOW.......of Presence........deeper and broader.....expanding in all directions.

And then the talents we are born with will decide what things we will be wizzards at - be it chemistry or music or running or anything else.

When presence preceives itself it is awareness that shines. The light of awareness understands what it touches. It is instant understanding. Omniscience in and of THIS moment. Not as in solving a riddle......but as in seeing what is. It knows itself. And that is all that is, no?

Just some ramblings from the sofa in my little "hule" in Norway...





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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  5:00:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow......we all cross posted
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  5:09:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Katrine,

Yes I remember that part of the Bible story well, and I even remember Jesus getting mad at the money lenders in the church, but I don't think that contradicts what I am saying here...A truely enlightened being would at some point have to get to a point where emotions are left behind. It may have happened after Jesus was crucified for him, I don't know. It may not have happened at all for him and maybe he wasn't "truely" enlightened. No one REALLY knows. So that said, I still have a hard time believing that SwamiG is a truely enlightened being after reading through all her complaining and such over having to still do things for herself and not being waited on hand and foot by her devotees. She may be on her way to enlightenment as we all are, and she may have the ability to transfer Shakti energy to others, but she has not transcended her ego nor her emotions it seems. And to me, someone living in 24/7/365 bliss would not be speaking the way she does, but would be able to be unattached to the suffering of this world.

In Love,
Carson
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  5:15:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson

Oh....i missed that this discussion was about her.

I didn't speak with her in mind

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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  5:17:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
No worries,
My bad for derailing this topic in the first place.
In Love,
Carson
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2008 :  5:19:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
What does "derail" mean?

PS.
I don't see any bad here
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