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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 05 2008 : 02:11:59 AM
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Breaking this thread to continue on entheogen:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2112
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Can you tell me which catagory Ketamine fits in then according to your definitions of drug, hallucinogen, and entheogen? And based on your catagorization of hallucinogen I only know if ONE species of plant that causes this, that being the Tropane akaloids (Henbane, Belladonna, Datura and all the others in this family). And these in particular have been and are still used by "shamans" (even REAL ones, they often call it "Toe" and smoke it before an ayahausca session) the world over since the "beginning". Are you saying that these plants hold no value to a shaman? Why do "REAL" shamans still use it then? And that would have to probably go for Salvia D as well I think. I don't consider salvia to cause true ego dissolution. It causes something much different in my opinion. And did you "connect" with "The Green Goddess" by sitting and communing with the live plants or HOW has Salvia created any action within your vessel?
Chamico (datura ferox) is a powerfull ally, an enthogen, and a cleaner of energy. My quechua teacher and friend in Argentina never use it unless absolutely necessary (it can easily kill someone). It´s the best plant that he knows to clean a space so what you refer to prior an ayahuasca session might probably be smoking out bad spirits which one should always do before any ritual.
Yes Salvia is less stronger entheogen than Ayahuasca for true ego dissolution. My connection with Green Godess was not through a living plant eventhough Salvia is legal in France. Please share your views and personal experiences about Salvia regarding kundalini because it might help me go deeper on my path. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2008 : 12:05:57 PM
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I never saw a connection between the two. I had a hard time letting go. I only felt that every molecule in my body was buzzing. I tried in the midst of the experience to relate it to my yoga practice but it actually just found that amusing.
Salvia is a total anomaly to me.
It doesn't feel like it's something regular people are meant to do. I felt like I was intruding into some space I didn't belong in and as a result the experience was always very uncomfortable and traumatic. It felt totally other-worldly and seemed to have nothing to do with yoga or spirituality in general. It basically just obliterated my ego and left me grasping like a scared baby as EVERY nuance of my life was shown to me and then cast away. But it felt like someone else was doing this - not me. Maybe it was The Witness...but it seemed too personfied for that.
LSD and marijuana have intense kundalini connections forme. Salvia...I can't quite figure that one out. I'd love to hear some experiences from others. |
Edited by - anthony574 on Aug 05 2008 12:07:27 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2008 : 5:36:51 PM
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Well I tried salvia three times.
The first time, my friend gave me some and we smoked it in a park. It did nothing. I was sitting there on a hill waiting for whatever it was to take place, and nothing took place. My friend said it was because we didn't have enough.
The second time I was staying at another friend's place, we'll call him R, with a third friend, V. So R, V and myself went to this store and saw they had some for sale. We figured we would give it a shot, so we got the 20x stuff. Apparently they have things like 90x now, or something...but I don't really believe it'd be more effective than what we had. It was pretty wild.
Well I took a hit how they described to do it on websites, by inhaling really really full. All you need is one. So at the top of my inhale, I passed the pipe to my friend and at that point my reality got pretty messed up. Everything was black and white and like a tunnel. I was like, "holy crap, I need to sit down" so I started crawling to the couch. We had a Wu Tang Clan (rap) live dvd playing in the background, and all of a sudden I noticed whoever was up on the screen was rapping about everything I did. Like, "Now Scott's crawlin to the couch yo, now he's grabbin his red pillow homey". Like that, except of course better because I'm not a rapper. But anyway, when I looked at the screen to double check whether they were rapping about me or not, all of a sudden everything on the screen was coming out at me in multicolored clouds. Like, if the rapper's shirt was red, red clouds would start coming out towards me from it. So that was really wild. Then all of a sudden R's neighbor upstairs started stomping and making noise. To me, it seemed like he was pissed that we had smoked so he was going to come down and kill us, and it seemed like he was really really screaming and yelling and perhaps hurting people upstairs. At that point, of course, the fun multicolored clouds disappeared and everything was pretty dark and scary. I made sure we were really quiet, or at least I thought I did..but afterwards my friends said they didn't remember a guy yelling or us having to be quiet. From the outside it probably just looked like I got really quiet all of a sudden. Anyway shortly after that I started to come down, and have cold/hot sweats.
The third time was the next day. Smoked, and then everything turned into neon blue cornfield shapes. I looked at my friend V and he was made out of this stuff, and so was the air around him, and the tv set behind him, etc. I looked at my hand and that too was made of this weird shape. So I went into the bathroom to look at myself to see, and when I looked in the mirror I seriously looked like a snake. My eyes were snake eyes. My skin wasn't scaly or anything but just my features totally reminded me of a snake. So that kind of was freaky. I went to sit back down and I was pretty messed up. My friend R was getting ready to go to work, and he sat down next to me and he saw how messed up I was and kind of laughed about it. But for some reason that really pissed me off...I was kind of thinking subconsciously, who are you to mess with who I truly am? So I tried to tell him to "STFU" but it was like I had peanut butter in my mouth. So it came out like, "mmmph, mmmmmmuimmm, mmmpph". R looked at me really weird again and proceeded to rip on me...I was so mad, but soon he left and then soon after that I came down.
After coming down the second time, I said "I don't want to do drugs anymore". So the third time I did it was kind of a fluke. After I came down that third time I said "no way!" It made me appreciate my sanity. And suprisingly, after smoking it and totally coming down (about 2 hours later or so) I felt really clear headed. Like more so than normal.
Would I do it again? I really don't think so. I think people that haven't, and who are open to new experiences, should give it a try. See what happens. My friend V had nothing whatsoever happen to him, which was weird. I was totally tripping out from one inhale, and he would be sitting there smoking like a fiend for 3 bowls of the stuff, and he was totally fine. Weirdness. |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2008 : 3:15:59 PM
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the problem with people using salvia, as i see it, its almost like being throwin into samadhi or "Absorption" and vary-ing dagrees of absorption without knowing whats going on.
SALVIA puts you into the now. past and present dissolve, only the NOW exists.
they say, dont have sex for 3 days after smoking it, becouse youll go crazy, it makes me think its directly connected to the sex organ, or nervous system.
the tingling, is somthing i experiances during breathing practises. of corse when i do pranayama, i aim to increase the amount of impulse, or electricity running threw my nerves, this can be increased to the point that it starts to seep into the muscles, causing involentary muscle contraction. nothing but, but definitly noticable.
salvia is a great tool, but if you had kundalini in a bottle, how much would you drink? personally i think salvia stimulates whats already in the body. HENCE its reverse tolarance effect, and the fact that one individual may smoke it once, and another may havta smoke it 12 times befor the faintess experiance.
pot stimulates the solar plexus, and also depletes energy threw over stimulation, hence a come down. salvia also has a come done, but it is an up beat feeling.
to me, i see salvia and pot as opposites, and if you smoke them together, they mutually effect each other, nutralizing some aspects and changing others.
think, completly relaxed, but extremly focused and concentrated.
though! it is the lower levels of salvia that are usefull. most people jump right end, find themselvs at the top of the sky scraper, and freak out.
youd probly do the same if you ever experianced kundalini at its utmost full potential in your body for a split second. but who knows? haha
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2008 : 12:29:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by avatar186
though! it is the lower levels of salvia that are usefull. most people jump right end, find themselvs at the top of the sky scraper, and freak out.
Would you be OK to expound more on "the lower levels" ? |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2008 : 03:20:08 AM
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| hmm, I've only had a low level experience with salvia... figured I might as well chime in :). Everything around you feels "connected" to you. As if everything is moving with you. It was a very visual and tactile sort of experience, as if I could feel the world moving with me, melting into me, me melting into it. The thought process was that of utter confusion, of not really knowing what's going on, though it only lasted about 2 mins maybe, and then I slowly "came to". There was a certain mild lingering relaxed sort of feeling that lasted maybe 30 mins afterwards. I believe it was 30x or something around that, that I smoked. Just one big hit, held in for basically as long as possible, did the trick. Before I even had the chance to blow out the hit, I was already beggining to melt into the world, maybe 20 seconds later, it was at its peak. |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2008 : 10:41:35 PM
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well you can look up the official "levels" or gross ones on the net.
theirs the lowest , witch is just a feelings of wellness and alertness. like feeling good but being aware and conciouses.
theirs the laughing your ass off till you cry, witch is a bit high up their usually.
I like to be inbatween, definitly befor absorptions.
were time seems to be NOW. it feels like your in the state for alooong long time, it feels like the state will never end, and it is all that really exists. you realize we live in time, we wast our lifes living in past and future, doing "things" to pass the "time" when time dosnt exist.
think of it like this, if you were an animal, would you sit and watch tv? no, you do what your doing, ah its hard to explain.
a bit higher than that, but riiight below the absorption, your imagination, you start to see colors, shapes and lines that can be molded by thought and imaginaiont. above that
you melt, i was once part of my couch. the couch was two deminional.
now ive done lots with shifting conciousness
so im used to it, i knew the couch and what it was, and that it was 3'd but it looked two deminsional, and the fact that when i looked back, i could see the other side. as if it were as flat as paper, and i just peeked over the side.
my step dad said he became a light being. i gave him a bit too much, but it was good for him, though he, and many people resond negativly.
you see, in the very very high stage, breathing is suspended momentarily...till you come back.
im actually going to smoke some soon, if i can find a pipe., |
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avatar186
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2008 : 10:42:10 PM
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oh yes, try singing on it, dancing, shamanistic things. breathing. etc ;)
pace yourself. |
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2008 : 11:06:57 AM
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As someone who has had rather extensive experience with drugs in the past, I wouldn't recommend them to anyone as a way of awaking Kundalini - simple mindful, ethically sound, compassion living and effective meditation will do the job soon enough.
I'm not denying that entheogens can, and do, have some beneficial uses - particularly in terms of opening up unused neurological pathways, stripping away the various layers of the psyche and revealing psychological trauma; which can then, hopefully, be resolved. However, sometimes they do so in such a way that one may not be fully prepared for what is opened, stripped away and revealed. And, in those instances, one is just left in a very unpleasant psychotic state - which is usually temporary, but not always.
Also, given the fact that a lot of spiritually inclined people have undiagnosed and untreated mental illnesses, the use of any entheogen may actually aggravate their condition and make it worst.
Therefore, if one does decide to use entheogens, please use them with respect and proceed with caution. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2008 : 7:01:06 PM
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Selfonlypath,
Please forgive the lateness of my reply. I did not see this thread until a few days ago and I have tried to respond three times so far but I am having computer problems at home and have not yet successfully posted a response. Please excuse me.
First off, Datura or Toe has always been smoked before the ayahausca sessions I have participated in in Peru. This too may be for cleansing and smoking out bad spirits, but these Tropane Akaloids are classed in your "hallucinogen" catagory which you earlier said had no use as an entheogen. This I disagree with. But this is a minor point in my opinion.
In regards to my personal Salvia experiences I will say this....I have had extensive experience with Salvia both orally in a quid, via tincture of pure Salvinorin A, and have smoked the leaves, and several different potencies of extract as well as pure Salvinorin A. I find Salvia to have very little use as an entheogen. Even in the longer acting quid and tincture forms. I have met the GreenGoddess many times, but I find what she has to say trivial and/or hard to process in any usable way. Even the Aborigines who use Salvia for divination only use it when there are no psylocibin mushrooms around because they find it much more difficult to work with and much less effective. I will give you an example of a usual Salvia trip for myself in illustration...
My roomie and I decided to smoke some Salvia so we turned out all the lights, unplugged/turned off the phones, turned off the t.v/music and lit a single candle. We filled the bong with 50X extract and sat opposite each other in the living room. (I find it absolutely vital to create an environment that would be conducive for meditation because any slight distraction can either ruin, taint or otherwise disrupt a Salvia journey.) So with our preparations made we hit the bong. We passed it back and forth three times before I took one last hit and set the bong on the coffee table. As my trip began to hit I realized that my roomie was reaching for the bong I had just put down and then I was gone. On Salvia I always seem to go backwards and downwards as "I" fall out of my body. This is normal. At this point though I feel as if I have just murdered my best friend. I feel absolutely like the scum of the earth x100. Because I had not passed the bong back to roomie and instead had put it down. This is partially why I find Salvia of minor usefulness. No matter how hard you try to create the perfect environment, the activity of Salvia causes the amplification of whatever last thought you have when it hits. And unless you are meditating and completely absorbed in NO thoughts, it is next to impossible to control the emotion that will predominate the experience. Terror and confusion often prevail. In this particular trip I am now in "the void" except it is the opposite of silent. It is chaos. Swirling black nothingness chaos. Filled with the emotion of just murdering your best friend. Absolute hell. As I start to float back up towards my body, (which is incredibly heavy feeling and covered with sweat I will soon find out, this too is normal for me) I realize that I can now see my living room like I am looking at it through a glass floor. I can see my fish swimming in my fishtank from underneath the tank, I can see all my furniture from underneath it, see my roomie now laying on the couch tripping out etc, etc. And as I get closer and closer I notice that what looks like a boot tread is headed straight for my "head" or consciousness, whatever you want to call it and is rapidly approaching. I reach up my "hand" to stop it from hitting my in the face and WHAMMO, I'm back in my body...with my hand in my mouth. The boot tread had actually been a view of the inside of my mouth. The roof of my mouth and my teeth, looking like a "boot tread". I then felt relieved as always to be alive, and that my friend was not mad at me, and I sat and tripped out on the candle flame and enjoyed being alive. This is a regular Salvia trip for me. Don't get me wrong, I have had some "meaningful" Salvia trips, I have lived other's whole lives, had contact with beings I can't explain, seen some incredible cities and architechture, etc, etc. but I find Salvia much harder and much less rewarding to work with then it's "kinda similair in effects" sister DMT. I get far more meaning from working with DMT then with Salvia.
You did not comment on where Ketamine might fit in here. Maybe you don't know much about Ketamine. "K" is classified as a "dissociative anaestetic"(sorry not sure how to spell that). There are only 3 drugs that fit in this catagory. PCP, Ketamine, and DXM (the active ingredient in most cough syrups). When ingested in the proper dosage, "K" will dislocate your "self" from your body so that doctors can perform surgery. They don't use K on adults anymore (just on children and cats etc) because it causes what is known in the medical community as "re-emergence effects". Basically K seperates the "Self" from it's "filters". Social, physical, psychological, all the biases and patterns that we come to know as our "Self" as stripped from you as you are shot into the Universe as a white ball of consciousness. I used to have a serious psychological addiction to K, and I used it everyday at least once a day for almost two years at one point in my life. And I think that if you are looking for a drug that can create TRUE ego dissolution consistantly, then Ketamine is the ONLY drug I would EVER recommend for this. I will give you a (hopefully) short descirption of a regular Ketamine trip to illustrate my point here...
I only ever did Ketamine when I was headed to bed. At this point I was a methamphetamine addict as well as a heroin addict so I often used K as a sleep aid as well. I would usually do what is considered a very high dose (250mg's) and I would ingest it via insufflation/snorting it although I would occasionally IM inject it.(Never do it IV by yourself as it will hit you before you could get the needle out of the vien. I know this from experience) It usually would take 10 minutes to start to hit me and at that point I would be laying on my bed, on my back with my eyes closed. I soon start to hear the "carrier wave" which is the same sound we get in meditation and call the ringing or the Aum sound. My body starts to become difficult to feel and walking would become increasingly impossible.(always pee first ) Soon I start to see a few visions in my minds eye, mostly fractals and colorful geometric patterns. Then after about 10 more minutes I get to a point where I usually start to feel like my bed is a waterbed and someone is rocking it and then WOOSH, I "zoom" out the top of my head into this great expanse of sky and stars and I have become a white ball of consciousness. At this point I usually have predetermined what my agenda is that night. Back then it was usually "take a tour of my body and try to see the spot in my brain effected by my opiate addiction and "will it" better". (I know another person who has successfully done this, so I was attracted to the "magic bullet" aspect of it. No lectures needed. haha) Sometimes I would travel back in time to experience something I was interested in, sometimes I would travel into the future to try and see how best to try and change the world. Sometimes I would go and "remote view" on some of my friends so I could freak them out later with knowledge there was no way I could have had. I was a druggy but I had good intentions I swear. Ketamine last only about 1 hour, but that is WAAAY longer then any Salvia trip. And I find that because Ketamine shuts off the Hypothalamus part of the brain there is never the "terror" aspect that I sometimes get with Salvia or DMT for that matter. Ketamine is more maliable, for more reliable, far more consistant, and far more psychologically addicting. But as far as ego dissolution goes, it's the holy grail in my books. In my personal opinion I agree with Nirodha. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to use drugs OF ANY KIND to try and create a Kundalini awakening. Only bad things will come from that I fear. But I still stand by my previous statements that entheogens can be a useful tool in the yogi toolbelt if used with respect, understanding and proper mental, environmental, and physical preparation. Please be safe everyone.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 01 2008 7:19:16 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2008 : 05:22:45 AM
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Thank you very much for those who accepted to share their own experience of entheogens & connection with kundalini process.
A particular thank to CarsonZi through his other recent threads on AYP confirming my own experience with Salvia. What I mean by that is you can connect with the real nature of a plant helper on external level (ingested or shamanically) but also on internal level (not ingested or tantrically). This internal level is what happened to me with Salvia and I believe it also happened to CarsonZi with ibogaine. CarsonZi did a google search with kriya & ibogaine ending up on AYP system & freeing himself from methadone addiction in order to journey closer to the mystery. A similar situation happened to me last year with Salvia through another webforum which provided quechua shamanism initiations skyrocketing my progress.
I guess there must be also a way to connect directly on a secret level but i'm not stabilized so far into dzgochen or advaita or non-duality awareness.
In Shakti, Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Sep 10 2008 07:13:15 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2008 : 11:02:13 AM
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Albert,
Beautiful posting. Never thought of it like that, but I love it! And it's so true! Isn't it amazing how things work themselves out. If you are still feeling that connection to Salvia, I HIGHLY suggest that you make an effort to somehow find a living Salvia Divinorum plant. Preferably one in your own home. Not to use as smoking or quid materials, but to have a personal relationship with. (sounds silly but it's possible and very rewarding I think. Being able to touch and water and talk to and love a Salvia plant (or an Iboga one too for that matter) is a remarkable thing. I truely believe there is a "spirit" or an essence that belongs to the Salvia plant that most people call "The Green Goddess" and she truely exists. And it is possible to have a personal relationship with her without getting high on Salvia. It sounds like this is type of arrangement would be ideal for you Albert. Let me know if you are interested and having trouble finding a live plant. I can probably figure out a way to help you out if you can't. BEST of luck Albert! It's an amazing journey isn't it!
In Love,
CarsonZi |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2008 : 2:11:25 PM
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Hi Carson,
Maybe you can help me about salvia divinorum. On the last chart this webpage http://deoxy.org/8brains.htm or on Robert Anton Wilson article http://deoxy.org/8circuit.htm what type of drug SD falls into or in other words, which circuit will it open ?
In Shakti, Albert
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2008 : 7:32:03 PM
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Hi Albert,
I think it would fall into the Ajna section, but it's hard to say. For me personally I think there are aspects of the Root chakra, the Throat chakra, the Ajna chakra, and MAYBE the Sahasrara chakra but this one the least. Even the shaman's from Oaxaca say that Salvia D is inferior to psylocibin because of how difficult it is to work with and I think that it would be best in the Ajna section. But keep in mind that not EVERY drug will fit into a catagory on that chart.
Love,
Carson |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2008 : 02:50:25 AM
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Hi Carson,
About Salvia, which circuit (VI or VII) corresponds to ajna in your previous answer ?
Maybe another question where you could help me: which circuit do you think San Pedro aka Trichocereus pachanoi turns on ?
In Shakti, Albert |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2008 : 11:40:17 AM
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Hi Albert,
The "SmartFilter" on my work computer will not let me look at the links for better reference, but the Ajna chakra is the Third Eye Chakra. It had Psylocibin(mushrooms) and LSD and DMT under the heading. San Pedro, Tri Pachanoi, and other cacti like peyote would be in the same catagory. Ajna. I believe this was considered the VII circuit on the chart, because there were 8 levels and the 8th was the Sahasrara chakra, so that would make the Ajna circuit 7. But in Yoga there is only 7 chakra's and I can't look at the chart so I can't remember which one was extra and if it was above ajna or below it. I'm pretty sure it would have been below. So that would make the Ajna chakra circuit VII on your chart. Hope this helps.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2008 : 2:17:21 PM
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Hi Albert,
Thanks for sending me the chart via email. Salvia will fit into VI. NOT VII. S
Sorry.
Love,
Carson |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 12:52:49 AM
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Hey Carson,
Incredible because Salvia fitting into circuit VI per Timothy Leary system deeply confirms what I shared before in this thread: Salvia spirit has been acting through my vessel eventhough i've never ingested Salvia in this life. Thank you for having shared on AYP & private mails very personal details of your self-experience with entheogens helping me come closer to the Mystery. I also thank the spirit behind Ayahuasca, Ibogaine and Marijuana who made this contact possible on AYP.
May you, your family and friends be infinitely blessed, Albert |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2008 : 10:30:47 AM
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Thanks Albert. Glad you found that helpful.
Love,
Carson |
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Adam_West
Australia
4 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 10:42:41 PM
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Hi Albert,
Would you provide a link to the forum that discusses quechua shamanism and its initiations? Email me if you would like to discuss quechua shamanism off-forum.
Many thanks!
In kind regards
Adam. |
Edited by - Adam_West on Mar 20 2009 12:01:04 AM |
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Salvia, entheogens and kundalini
