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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 28 2008 : 01:23:26 AM
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The Eckhart tolle thread got me thinking
what should we expect from a guru? should we expect them to be perfect in word, perfect in their actions? because they have obtained "it". Gurus have only lived their own path so they only know the way to "it" the way they obtained "it". They know no other path because any other path then their own is only theory because they have not lived that path. They may think some things are not necessary that other paths may feel vital.
just thoughts
neil
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2008 : 07:32:56 AM
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I see that as well, neil. And I get more and more clear about the fact that even though ego is transcended as realized it continues to exist as long as we have a body-mind to move in, and the ego always carries a shadow - blind spots that we don't see - realized or not! And it continues to be expressed in gurus, no matter how much masterhood they have achieved.
One thing that is obvious is that most gurus seem to claim they are deepest evolved, has the deepest awakenings. It is very interesting how they speak about other teachers - if they even bother to do that! This goes mostly for male realized beings, and from my perspective... I just see that old "I pee the longest" expressed in a different form... 
I'd like to put a bunch of realized beings in one room and don't let them out before they agree on who has the deepest awakenings and realizations!  Wonder what that would result in! LOL!
So, as far as I'm concerned - my deepest respect and trust is in the gurus or teachers who don't magnify themselves, but show humility. Gurus who live as they teach and are radically honest. Gurus who don't defend themselves in anyway but are always open about their behaviours and are willing to be grateful for all who continue to point out their shadow - which is very rare, since disciples often raise gurus as authorities and gets insecure about whether they are projecting their own mud onto the guru, or if they actually deeply sense something muddy within the guru... so most people shut up about what they may see as a shadow in the guru, so gurus seldom have to get met by such suggestions...
So... I don't expect much from a guru, except a help to raise my consciousness to finer levels. Then how they live their lives is not my business. I am grateful for the work they do on teaching about Truth and show me the Way.
I have contact with four realized beings at the moment, and have met a few others, and they are surely different people "on stage" and "off stage"! Many of my illusions have fallen! And I appreciate them as fellow human beings even more! They just washed themselves a bit more than me. And they are ready to give me a proper scrub whenever! That's beautiful and I feel very priviliged to know them.
But what it really has taught me is that
The real guru is within! Thank you, Yogani, I'm forever grateful for you hammering that in! |
Edited by - emc on Jun 28 2008 6:44:00 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2008 : 11:57:57 AM
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I think we should expect EVERYTHING good from a guru, because they're putting themselves in that position of power. They have the potential to really mess with people, so they should be put to the test. First and foremost, true teachers are servants of others, so these gurus should be ready for your skepticism and whatever else you wish to throw at them. If they can't handle it then perhaps they shouldn't take up the role. Can anyone handle it? Is anyone perfect? I doubt it.
So we are all teachers to eachother, and no one should be treated with reverence. It's good to respect those that have good qualities, but that's different from the demanded respect...like a guru saying "You need to donate, you need to obey, I am your master" etc.
I've often found that those who put themselves up as gurus can't handle normal everyday crap. Things which EVERYONE have to deal with. Like others disrespecting them, having to earn money, grudges, etc. If these enlightened ones can't even solve these basic problems, then what is there to learn from them? You can't have the enlightenment without the wood and water...so perhaps it's best to follow your own path and see what works, rather than following other people, all of whom have the same problems as you.
I think it's great that Yogani has said "the guru is within". It points us in a much better direction.
EMC,
"I'd like to put a bunch of realized beings in one room and don't let them out before they agree on who has the deepest awakenings and realizations! Wonder what that would result in! LOL! "
LOL. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2008 : 1:36:13 PM
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Hi,
Unfortunately it's often a catch 22 for gurus.If they promote their teachings then there is always someone who will say that they are egotistical and simply after power or money.If they don't promote their teachings then many who could have benefited simply don't get access to their experience and benefits.Damned if you do, damned if you don't springs to mind.
What should we expect? I guess that depends on what path they follow.If one is talking of a Yogi who lives within the parameters of the limbs of yoga, then we should expect mutual respect and honesty as a minimum.But shouldn't we expect these things from all people?If we treat others how we wish to be treated then we should expect this as a minimum.I have no expectations and find the expereince is more rewarding this way.
L&L
Dave |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2008 : 2:56:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I have contact with four realized beings at the moment, and have met a few others, and they are surely different people "on stage" and "off stage"!
Hi emc, if you want to share, I would be curious about how they are different "on stage" and "off stage".
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2008 : 4:45:12 PM
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Hi,
quote:
Originally posted by tubeseeker
The Eckhart tolle thread got me thinking
what should we expect from a guru? should we expect them to be perfect in word, perfect in their actions? because they have obtained "it". Gurus have only lived their own path so they only know the way to "it" the way they obtained "it". They know no other path because any other path then their own is only theory because they have not lived that path. They may think some things are not necessary that other paths may feel vital.
in the vajrayana path, a bouddha possesses 10 strengths (I'm not sure of the translation). The sixth one is : the strength which knows all the paths leading everywhere. (In tibetan buddhism, a buddha is meant to be omniscient).
If you read Amma or Muktananda, they're clear : the guru is God. He is omniscient and omnipresent. If he's not, he's not a guru. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2008 : 6:41:16 PM
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weaver,
They are as different on stage and off stage as we or anyone would be! But it is easy to believe that they would be the same example of saintly peace and wisdom always - as if they performed satsangs 24/7. They don't. But we may believe that since we don't know what a realized being looks like/behaves like. We see them so seldom in everyday settings. So the only reference frame we got is when we occasionally see them on stage and we draw most of our conclusions about them from that.
(It is the same mistake we do when we picture what a rape looks like. How many have seen a rape in reality? Very few. So what does a real rape look like? If you were a witness and saw love making going on... how would you know it's not a rape?)
As Scott says - they encounter the same everyday problems as we all do. They get conditioned emotional responses as we do when the French fries are served old and cold - but they let it through fully and it's quickly over! They don't humbly eat what they are served. They call the staff and demands new fresh fries! And then it's gone. It's over. And it didn't mean anything to them at all. It was just life displaying itself as movement and form. Stillness in action. Not passively accepting the bad food, but accepting that it was brought to them and then action is taking place to make things better. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2008 : 03:23:11 AM
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EMC, in what way do you believe they are different that wins them the classification as 'realized beings'?
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2008 : 08:00:21 AM
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emc,
Care to name names of the four "realized beings"?
Also, can you define the term "realized being"? I mean, is it a black and white thing or are there degree's of it?
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2008 : 09:09:24 AM
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david and robertjames,
Thanks for good questions. Realization for me is not a fixed state - it's a widening of consciousness, or a waking up of consciousness. It is itself waking up to itself in every individualized being. Realization is an ever expanding continuum. For me, there's no way I can tell how far anyone has come on that journey of deep awakenings - I can only tell if someone is cleaner/deeper than me, really, because it brings a resonance in me when they speak of Truth/That that brings me deeper. When Yogani speaks/writes of Truth and Stillness it resonates in me and I know that my own individualized consciousness is widening due to the teachings of Yogani. Yogani is a realized being or else he wouldn't be able to teach us. We can all feel the deeper truth in what he teaches. So he is of course one of them, Robert. Bernie Prior that I'm meeting now and then is another.
My own "criteria" of having reached a heavy milestone of realization is when consciousness is awake 24/7. But it's possible to have had deep awakenings before that state occurs, and when that state is present the journey doesn't end there but continues... So that's just my own mindset of what a realized being is. So when you can describe what happens during deep sleep... I count that person as a pretty realized being. But we are all realized, aren't we? To our own extent. We have all some awakenings going on, so compared to the everyday person we who hang out here are probably pretty realized.
The other two I'm not so sure they are awake 24/7 so I'd rather not point them out at the moment.  I just know that when they speak of Truth or touch me I sink down in deep samadhi, and being in their presence widen my consciousness in profound ways. So for me - they are definitely more realized than I am and I thus call them realized beings. |
Edited by - emc on Jun 29 2008 09:13:53 AM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2008 : 12:35:32 PM
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Hi emc,
Thank you for your answer. Yes, it's obvious that when performing certain functions for the public, such as satsangs, people will appear to be a certain way because of what they are actually doing. It's like doing any job. For example, a teacher may appear to be authoritative when teaching a certain subject that they are confident about, when in reality they may not be an authoritative personality at all in other aspects of their lives. In these cases, "on-stage" appearances are strictly job-related, and are not put on with the intention to hide what they really are.
However, we also know that the ego usually wants to appear as favorably as possibly in public, so for this reason many people put on an "on-stage" appearance with the intention to hide some aspects of what they really are. I would not call any person realized who is (subject to) doing this.
You describe realization as a widening or waking up of consciousness, as an ongoing process, and not as a final state. I see it the same way. In realization I would also include non-attachment to the ego, including any need to appear differently "on-stage" or "off-stage". A realized being is themselves in expression at all times, with nothing to hide. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2008 : 1:14:37 PM
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weaver, I agree. I don't think any of the realized beings I've met try to hide anything when on stage. My point is that you never see them in a situation where they show their behaviour when hassels occur. On stage you seldom have to argue with your mindy wife or try to solve a lousy economical situation... I don't think they try to hide anything on stage - it's just that we don't get to see them in more difficult situations where emotions may bubble up and then learn from how they handle it!
Where's the at-home-documentary on Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie or Adyashanti or the like? That would be intersting to see! |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2008 : 4:31:32 PM
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EMC said:
Thanks for good questions. Realization for me is not a fixed state - it's a widening of consciousness, or a waking up of consciousness. It is itself waking up to itself in every individualized being. Realization is an ever expanding continuum. For me, there's no way I can tell how far anyone has come on that journey of deep awakenings - I can only tell if someone is cleaner/deeper than me, really, because it brings a resonance in me when they speak of Truth/That that brings me deeper. When Yogani speaks/writes of Truth and Stillness it resonates in me and I know that my own individualized consciousness is widening due to the teachings of Yogani. Yogani is a realized being or else he wouldn't be able to teach us. We can all feel the deeper truth in what he teaches. So he is of course one of them, Robert. Bernie Prior that I'm meeting now and then is another.
I am glad that you see that realization is an on-going state, and that it is relative, because I think that is the reality, and we are well-served by knowing the reality.
I can only tell if someone is cleaner/deeper than me, really, because it brings a resonance in me when they speak of Truth/That that brings me deeper.
Let me push this discovery of relativity a bit further -- question that conclusion you have expressed there. I say they don't really have to be cleaner/deeper than you to produce any of those sorts of resonance in you. That's a little like Alice saying that if someone gets her aroused, then they must be sexier than her. Really? Is that true?
One thing that is obvious is that most gurus seem to claim they are deepest evolved, has the deepest awakenings. It is very interesting how they speak about other teachers - if they even bother to do that! This goes mostly for male realized beings, and from my perspective... I just see that old "I pee the longest" expressed in a different form...
What you're seeing right there is simply the manifestation of Shadow -- in this case ordinary human narcissism. Nothing to do with enlightenment, but a lot to do with the whole guru scene.
Among those famous for 'enlightenment' or openings, or high-profile gurus or saints, there is a very, very, small list in which I don't see signs of narcissism. It goes with the territory of being famous.
By the way, I don't know about Sweden, but in America, it's how high you pee, not how 'long' you pee that matters. 
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2008 : 5:33:09 PM
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 02:20:56 AM
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| My pee is wider. |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 05:07:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
By the way, I don't know about Sweden, but in America, it's how high you pee, not how 'long' you pee that matters.
That's why females don't participate in pee-competitions 
(sorry, couldn't resist) |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4505 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 09:15:51 AM
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Hi EMC
quote:
One thing that is obvious is that most gurus seem to claim they are deepest evolved, has the deepest awakenings. It is very interesting how they speak about other teachers - if they even bother to do that! This goes mostly for male realized beings, and from my perspective... I just see that old "I pee the longest" expressed in a different form...
I can only speak for myself, but in my experience it is only a few gurus or spiritual teachers who engage in a kind of "I am the most evolved and have had the deepest awakenings" kind of thing. I agree that when it happens it is usually men. I do believe that it is useful at times for teachers to share their experiences in order to give people a better understanding of just what can happen on the spiritual path. But if they are doing it in order to make themselves out to be better than any other spiritual teacher, I would see that as a sign that things have gone seriously wrong in their spiritual path, and I would not treat them as an authority in spiritual matters but rather as a fellow seeker who has lost the path somewhere down the line.
Christi |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 10:36:04 AM
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If a "realised" guru says they are God, run away as fast as you can! That is, after all, what schizophrenics say too.
My understanding is that omniscience via intuition is valid to the degree that God wants a person to know something and by prayer He can pop whatever knowledge He wants into that persons mind. But that person doesn't know everything all at once. This is the only position i can concieve of. Otherwise, if a guru wants people to believe they are "one with God" and therefore "God" i feel sorry for them. I have never met or read any writings of any gurus where they say something a normal person couldn't say, and neither do they pull information out of the ether like the unified field theory. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 10:49:26 AM
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Christi said:
it is only a few gurus or spiritual teachers who engage in a kind of "I am the most evolved and have had the deepest awakenings" kind of thing.
First of all, I agree with you that 'only a few engage in a kind of OVERT AND OBVIOUS "I am the most evolved and have had the deepest awakenings" kind of thing"'. But when we change OVERT AND OBVIOUS to COVERT AND SUBTLE, we can no longer say, 'only a few' -- the list is suddenly 100 times as big as it was.
I would see that as a sign that things have gone seriously wrong in their spiritual path, and I would not treat them as an authority in spiritual matters but rather as a fellow seeker who has lost the path somewhere down the line
Perhaps -- but let's not write them off entirely! They may still be useful, they may still have great wisdom despite their shadow, no? Maybe we should treat all people as fellow seekers, some as just greater fountains of wisdom at times than others.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4505 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 11:07:38 AM
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Hi David,
quote:
First of all, I agree with you that 'only a few engage in a kind of OVERT AND OBVIOUS "I am the most evolved and have had the deepest awakenings" kind of thing"'. But when we change OVERT AND OBVIOUS to COVERT AND SUBTLE, we can no longer say, 'only a few' -- the list is suddenly 100 times as big as it was.
That must shurely depend on which teachers and Gurus we draw into our aquaintance. Some people will attract teachers who have lost the way, for particular karmic reasons, whilst others will attract teachers who are on a pure path of awakening, and therefor actually have something worth teaching, no?
quote:
Perhaps -- but let's not write them off entirely! They may still be useful, they may still have great wisdom despite their shadow, no? Maybe we should treat all people as fellow seekers, some as just greater fountains of wisdom at times than others.
Everyone has something worthwhile to give, and I certainly would not write anyone off totally. Even those teachers who have completely lost their way can come back onto the right path. But to treat such people as authority figures would be a mistake, and would not help them, or anyone else.
Christi |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 12:33:20 PM
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David: quote:
Perhaps -- but let's not write them off entirely! They may still be useful, they may still have great wisdom despite their shadow, no? Maybe we should treat all people as fellow seekers, some as just greater fountains of wisdom at times than others.
That's the way I see it! (Very nice posts of you here, David! I smile within.) I would not put any guru above myself as an authority. If we will continue to have a shadow, there are no guru's on this earth today that don't have a shadow, so that's what we'll have to live with as manifested body-minds in existence. That's why the supreme guru is always within.
I didn't get a relaxed relation to Bernie before I picked him down from the piedistal... as long as I saw him as a teacher or authority... it was darn difficult to talk to him or have any naturally flowing contact at all. Just full of friction, misunderstandings, talking at the same time, stuttering... Then I had a session where I had this vision of him as a cleaner just doing a fellow human being a service of cleaning the house a bit for free... and afterwards I came out to find him at the dinner table. He lookede up and blinked one eye as if he was saying "NOW you've got it!" and from then on... I have had none of that friction in my contact with him.
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thimus
53 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 1:15:27 PM
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As S.N.Goenka says : "use your grey matter".
And as the Buddha explained (story told by Goenka) : "Its not enough to know the path : you muss tread it by yourself". Only you can do that.No teacher can take you on his shoulder.
Besides, we all have all different characters, good things, bad things, old samskara's that we have to face. So one teacher can help one better while some one else is more comfortable with another teaching.
But a good laugh (with ourselves) does miracles. Sri Aurobindo was very sad when an english officer said about him :"the one that never laughs". |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 5:48:09 PM
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Christi said:
Some people will attract teachers who have lost the way, for particular karmic reasons, whilst others will attract teachers who are on a pure path of awakening, and therefor actually have something worth teaching, no?
Yes. The purpose of creating awareness of dangers is to protect the weak, not to protect the strong.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2008 : 2:23:52 PM
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quote:
Posted - Jun 30 2008 : 05:07:36 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by david_obsidian
By the way, I don't know about Sweden, but in America, it's how high you pee, not how 'long' you pee that matters.
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That's why females don't participate in pee-competitions
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Sorry, Wolfgang.. ...but I just have to tell you:
I used to participate in pee-competitions with my sisters when we were children . We'd simply line up in a row.......standing on a huge rock up by the cabin.....and the winner was the one that could pee the longest (Sorry, David )
So I guess this is Norway for you....... |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2008 : 5:52:47 PM
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| Phew, thanks Katrine! I had a firm belief it was longest and not widest... |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2008 : 12:02:49 AM
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| no way emc, it's all about the widest, with a good spot, some beer in the system, and a bladder full of urine, it's all about who can run the longest distance, while... yeah. haha |
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what should we expect from a guru
