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 Other Systems and Alternate Approaches
 Microcosmic Orbit before Deep Meditation
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Jack

United Kingdom
302 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2008 :  06:44:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit Jack's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

With spinal breathing, I experience tension in the head almost immediately that does not go away for some time.

I am going to pick up Microcosmic Orbit instructions from a Mantak Chia book and try applying them, as circulating the energy down the front channel 'feels' right to me.

I was curious about changing my routine to Microcosmic Orbit followed by Deep Meditation - has anybody here practiced the two in one sitting? Any comments?

I'm going to give this a go. I will, of course, self-pace.

Cheers,

Jack

Christi

United Kingdom
3594 Posts

Posted - Jun 24 2008 :  11:20:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jack,

I practice microcosmic orbit (in addition to spinal breathing and deep meditation). I don't see any reason why you should not practice it as a replacement for SB, as long as you are aware that you will be missing out on many of the advantages of SB. One of these is the ability to build up a strong ecstatic connection between root and third eye without risking the overload that is associated with the crown chakra. In other words I believe you can go further, faster with SB in terms of purification (and enlightenment) than with the Microcosmic orbit. As I say, I practice both (and have done for a few years) along with deep meditation and I think that is the best, as the microcosmic orbit has some advantages that SB does not have.

Christi
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Jack

United Kingdom
302 Posts

Posted - Jun 26 2008 :  2:57:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Jack's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Christi,

Thank you for the reply. If you wouldn't mind sparing a few minutes, would you quickly list a few of the pros/cons of each you have experienced?

I'm looking for something to open the front channel whilst avoiding the crown - Jim and his Karma linked me to an exercise I may find useful for this. (Thanks, Jim)
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Christi

United Kingdom
3594 Posts

Posted - Jun 30 2008 :  09:35:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jack

quote:
Hello Christi,

Thank you for the reply. If you wouldn't mind sparing a few minutes, would you quickly list a few of the pros/cons of each you have experienced?

I'm looking for something to open the front channel whilst avoiding the crown - Jim and his Karma linked me to an exercise I may find useful for this. (Thanks, Jim)


I find that spinal breathing is the most powerful tool, as it purifies the shushumna nadi in a safe way between root and brow. Ecstasy can be built up to a high level without getting dangerously imbalanced. The microcosmic orbit has two advantages over spinal breathing, firstly it has a more direct stimulating effect on the crown (if that is what you want), and secondly in opens the front channel.

If you want a practice that opens the front channel whilst avoiding the crown you could try the microcosmic orbit, but instead of going up to the crown, go forward to the brow as in SB. I do this if I want to avoid excessive crown activation.

I do 2 mins of microcosmic orbit followed by 10 mins of SB as part of my hopelessly erratic practice.

Christi

Edited by - Christi on Jun 30 2008 09:39:17 AM
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Tibetan_Ice

Canada
758 Posts

Posted - Jun 30 2008 :  10:21:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Jack
I'm looking for something to open the front channel whilst avoiding the crown - Jim and his Karma linked me to an exercise I may find useful for this. (Thanks, Jim)



Hi Jack
I agree with Christi that the MC orbit is good for circulating the energy and opening the front channel.

Have you tried sitting in full lotus? (or even half lotus?) Sitting in full lotus will open the front channel (and more). The first thing you will notice, while sitting in full lotus, is that it hurts. To compensate, you relax the legs and buttocks a lot and probably kick in with some heavier breathing. You will find that during full lotus, you will perform the root locks almost automatically. After a while, a few days practice or maybe sooner, you will notice that the perineum kicks in and a trickle of 'feel good' energy rises up to the lower tan tien and then higher. It is following the vagus nerve path (front channel). If your attention focused upwards towards the brow the energy will go right up.

Here is kundalini link to some background on the vagus nerve:
http://biologyofkundalini.com/artic...=VivalaVagus


I know of one person who uses the full lotus to bring the energy up the front channel to the brow.
Here is a link: (but any post by Drew Hempel seems to repeat the same thing: "full lotus is the way".

http://www.thetaobums.com/Secret-of...y-t4744.html




TI
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YogaIsLife

641 Posts

Posted - Sep 30 2008 :  6:28:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit YogaIsLife's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

This is exactly the post I needed to read (thanks Jack!). How has been your experience so far with the microcosmic orbit (MO) and deep meditation with the I AM mantra?

I have been experiencing similar problems with SB as Jack mentioned (see this thread I started because of this: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=4432). Recently I heard of the Microcosmic Orbit and it made some sense to me as well, I tried it and it goes much smoother and it seems to have a deepening calming effect so I was thinking of going with this before the I AM meditation and it is good to know that that seems to be ok (thank you Christi!). I will also do like Christi suggested, not going for the crown but, like in SB, going to the third eye and then descending down the front, back to the perinieum.

Funnily enough, where I read about the MO was in a book called Beyond Tantra about Taoist Sacred Sexual Practices and in their instructions they mention to put the tongue against the palate (Kechari stage 1 in AYP) as, as they explained, it closes the circuit going down. This seems to be in accordance with what I read in AYP as well, which is very interesting.

I still don't know why I feel unconfortable doing SB in the head but it feels as there are obstructions in the head/neck or too much energy stuck there. I also think that I have had, in the past, some premature activity in the crown, but the I AM meditation has been great in stabilizing me, I am very very grateful to it. And I show it by continuing to practice, with proper self-pacing of course

Please, if anybody has experience with MO and I AM meditation do share. I read a lot in the forums that taoist practices should not be mixed with AYP practices but in this case it feels as MO is indeed very similar to SB but it seems to be much more helpful for me at this point. I don't intend to follow the taoist practices, I am happy with yoga, but am willing to integrate practices that work, of course, and don't overload each other. The idea is to later replace MO with SB, when it is no longer unconfortable. Any thoughts/comments appreciated!
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markern

Norway
171 Posts

Posted - Oct 01 2008 :  3:13:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit markern's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I am not very qualified to answer but to me it seems that the MO can be a good addition to AYP, especialy if one has praticualr issues that can be addressed by it.

What I can say with some certianty is that Mantak Chias techniques to opening the orbit are inferior to those of a few others because that seems to be the agreed upon opinion of the people at taobums.com. They have tried numerous orbit techniques including Chias. I think Charles Luk is the guy they rcomend. But go over there and ask cause I am not 100% sure.
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avatar186

USA
146 Posts

Posted - Oct 04 2008 :  9:27:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit avatar186's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
this is my kind of post.
spinal breathing is great. it has one requirment as far as im concerned, you must be able to build pressure. their must be a noticable pressure going up and down the spine. if their is build up in the head, OBVIOUSLY you are unsuccesfull in bringing the energy back down the spine.
if you can accomplish spinal breathing, WITH a large amount of moving pressure going up and down the spine, you will have the power to go from full sex stimulation on verge of orgasm, or limp, or no orgasm present, as if sex hadnt even started. VERY POWERFULL. but requires pressure.
=-=== the downside is, spinal breathing bypasses the chi spot.
when this constantly building pressure becomes to much, you bring it down the front channel as in microcosmic orbit. pressure can be built by microcomic orbit by itself.

spinal breathing is the water path

microcosmic is the fire path.

in microcosmic, you must have circulating pressure, focusing on the front channel, the problem is getting this strong pressure. the back channel never needs to be focused on. it is the water wheel technique, what goes down, will come up, the stronger the down, the stronger the up will become.
microcosmic orbit down not bypass the chi spot. it deals with transformation, this makes it dangeriouse as it incorporates the stage of blackness, or moist fire. ive heard of people turning themselves into vegitables with this moist internal heat. it is a drying process, whitness only comes after the black, the more black, the more heat.
for those already their, the only way i know to temporarily calm the heat, is to drink water, and wait for it to hit the chi spot,or the bladder. good luck people.
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YogaIsLife

641 Posts

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  1:33:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit YogaIsLife's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by avatar186

this is my kind of post.
spinal breathing is great. it has one requirment as far as im concerned, you must be able to build pressure. their must be a noticable pressure going up and down the spine. if their is build up in the head, OBVIOUSLY you are unsuccesfull in bringing the energy back down the spine.
if you can accomplish spinal breathing, WITH a large amount of moving pressure going up and down the spine, you will have the power to go from full sex stimulation on verge of orgasm, or limp, or no orgasm present, as if sex hadnt even started. VERY POWERFULL. but requires pressure.
=-=== the downside is, spinal breathing bypasses the chi spot.
when this constantly building pressure becomes to much, you bring it down the front channel as in microcosmic orbit. pressure can be built by microcomic orbit by itself.

spinal breathing is the water path

microcosmic is the fire path.

in microcosmic, you must have circulating pressure, focusing on the front channel, the problem is getting this strong pressure. the back channel never needs to be focused on. it is the water wheel technique, what goes down, will come up, the stronger the down, the stronger the up will become.
microcosmic orbit down not bypass the chi spot. it deals with transformation, this makes it dangeriouse as it incorporates the stage of blackness, or moist fire. ive heard of people turning themselves into vegitables with this moist internal heat. it is a drying process, whitness only comes after the black, the more black, the more heat.
for those already their, the only way i know to temporarily calm the heat, is to drink water, and wait for it to hit the chi spot,or the bladder. good luck people.



Hi avatar,

thank you so much for the so needed information. This is as well an important topic for me as I do feel those obstacles with spinal breathing (SB), and with MO (microcosmic orbit) everything goes much smoother. I actually feel the energy circulating down the front and feel it working inside (I have been feeling the inner alchemy in my gut as well lately). With spinal breathing, as you say, it gets "stuck" in the head and does not want to come down. In fact it is unpleaseant to do SB for me because of this. Like I mentioned in the other post, the only way I can make SB work better is by bending my neck forward, putting my chin against the hollow of the throat. I think it is because it constraints the nerves in the back of the neck (also the spinal nerve) and makes the energy more channeled through there, making it more effective. What are your views on why this could be?

Still from your post I did not understand if it is ok to do MO before meditation (I have been doing it and it seems to go ok). I don't understand as well very well the complications that can arise from MO, from what I understand it can be a safe healing exercise, no?

Also, what is what you call the "chi spot"?

Another question to you all out there: is there in fact a front channel? I mean, does it exist, is it recognised in Yoga as the spinal nerve is? Maybe yogani could help in this one (and maybe my previous questions as well?).

Again my idea is to, once I feel the pressure stable and the uneasiness gone, to switch back to SB as I want to follow AYP exclusively but I do find this problems. Aditionally, further down the path, I dont think using mudras and bandhas in conjuction with MO would be advisable and I would prefer to avoid it.

In love,
Helder
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Divineis

Canada
420 Posts

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  4:41:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I have the same problem. It's very likely a throat chakra issue, which for me, means I really have to be mindful of how I'm honest to myself. Even, too often, I'm being honest, yet because of lying to myself too often, covering up ego stuff... I'll even expect the other not to believe me... which just further messes with my throat chakra.

Also... you may of seen my post on love, in the more general topic forum. Love (no technique for that one really, except samyama maybe), and some serious grounding work, might help "magnetise" that energy downwards.
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YogaIsLife

641 Posts

Posted - Oct 07 2008 :  2:35:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit YogaIsLife's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Divineis

I have the same problem. It's very likely a throat chakra issue, which for me, means I really have to be mindful of how I'm honest to myself. Even, too often, I'm being honest, yet because of lying to myself too often, covering up ego stuff... I'll even expect the other not to believe me... which just further messes with my throat chakra.

Also... you may of seen my post on love, in the more general topic forum. Love (no technique for that one really, except samyama maybe), and some serious grounding work, might help "magnetise" that energy downwards.



thank you for your insights divineis. unforunately i dont think it is that simple. i thought so in the past as well and was trying to "open my throat", be open and sociable, be honest with myself, focus on love etc. All that self-help stuff. Unfortunately all these behavioural changes (although I tried very hard to believe and act on them) did not work. I think yogani described well what i was doing as non-relational self-inquiry or mind over mind, mind battling with mind. it is not good. i was trying to control myself and was not able. i dont know exactly why i am not able but i realise mine is indeed an energetic/spiritual problem and not a psychological/behavioural one, although this things can influence, no doubt. I know this because of the years trying to "control myself" and find balance through mind control - i did not gain much (maybe even lost) - and I found great balancing power and evolution in a few months of meditation already. so...

i know i still have a long way to go. i feel afraid. i feel anguished and depressed still sometimes. i feel my life has little sense still a bit. but this feelings are much less strong now than a few months ago when i started meditation. So, i guess it is a stepwise thing: first balance energies and ground and center myself, which is happening. then clearing out blockages (the head/neck seems like one in me) and the MO seems to help and, at the same time, do relational self-inquiry. I had several problems in my eyes as well and I think that influenced a lot since I had built a lot of pressure/tension in the eyes and head because of this. This can mix up emotions/thoughts/energy in your whole body and disrupt your energy system i believe.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3594 Posts

Posted - Oct 08 2008 :  10:43:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Helder,

quote:
Again my idea is to, once I feel the pressure stable and the uneasiness gone, to switch back to SB as I want to follow AYP exclusively but I do find this problems.


That's the approach I would take. You can go a lot further over the long term with Spinal Breathing than you can with the MCO. It works with a much more far-reaching energy current than the MCO does. (Sorry Taoist fans )

quote:
I dont think using mudras and bandhas in conjuction with MO would be advisable and I would prefer to avoid it.



I don't see any reason to avoid using mudras and bandhas with MCO. I do, and have had no problems. In AYP the use of mudras and bandhas is gradually extended to be applied during all the spiritual practices. In fact with the gradual evolution of whole body mudra (maha mudra) the basic mudras and bandhas become automatic all the time.

Christi
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YogaIsLife

641 Posts

Posted - Oct 08 2008 :  3:08:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit YogaIsLife's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Christi!
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Christi

United Kingdom
3594 Posts

Posted - Oct 11 2008 :  09:42:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Helder,

You're welcome!
quote:
Another question to you all out there: is there in fact a front channel? I mean, does it exist, is it recognised in Yoga as the spinal nerve is?


And yes, the front channel is recognised in Yoga. It is called the Arohan nadi in sanskrit and is said to go from muladhara up the front of the body to vishudi, and from there is passes through the centre of ajna (in the middle of the head) to the bindu chakra on the back of the head. There is even a version of the MCO practiced in yoga, but going up the front channel with the breath and down the spine. Some Yogis also teach the MCO as it is normally practiced in Taoism (up the spine with the in-breath and down the front with the out-breath).

Christi
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x.j.

304 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2008 :  06:14:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit x.j.'s Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Helder,

You're welcome!
quote:
Another question to you all out there: is there in fact a front channel? I mean, does it exist, is it recognised in Yoga as the spinal nerve is?


And yes, the front channel is recognised in Yoga. It is called the Arohan nadi in sanskrit and is said to go from muladhara up the front of the body to vishudi, and from there is passes through the centre of ajna (in the middle of the head) to the bindu chakra on the back of the head. There is even a version of the MCO practiced in yoga, but going up the front channel with the breath and down the spine. Some Yogis also teach the MCO as it is normally practiced in Taoism (up the spine with the in-breath and down the front with the out-breath).
Christi


Here is a text reference to frontal passage-spinal passage rotation. The book is Dharana Darshan, Bihar Yoga Series. It says on page 107:
"In this practice we will proceed to rotate the awareness, the ujjayi breath, the prana and the mantra(hamsa), through the arohan and awarohan (spinal) passages. Concentration upon the arohan-awarohan rotation creates a closed circuit of energy within the two most powerful psychic passages in the body. Both the arohan and awarohan passages are potent energy channels. The location of the chakras and their trigger points within these passages make them more powerful than any other channels. By consciously rotating the breath, the prana and the mantra through these passages, we are able to purify them, open the chakras, and awaken that latent psychic potential Once this is achieved, the spiritual forces arise spontaneously. Therefore, concentration on these passages is very important and it is considered as a basis for all the higher yogas. Without the awakening of these passages, the meditation process proceeds very slowly and one is unable to attain the different stages of dharana, dhyana and samadhi."

Incidentally this book presents many different exercises for the main channels, including ida-pingala spinal rotation. Khechari mudra is invariably used when doing these rotations. I recommend this book very highly.
x.j.
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newpov

USA
183 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2008 :  09:45:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit newpov's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Everyone,

Are there but THREE key practices or energy circuits for the beginner to undertake in yoga?

Would these be Deep meditation, spinal breathing pranayama, and a third, perhaps microcosmic orbit?

The reason I ask is the notable threesome in this famous scriptural reference:
quote:
I AM
the alpha and the omega,
the first and the last,
the beginning and the end.
-- Revelation 22:13

Could three key practices for the beginner in yoga be alluded to by Paul in this threesome found in his hymn to love, I Corinthians 13,
quote:
When I was a child [beginner in yoga]:
I used to talk like a child,
and see things as a child does,
and think like a child;
... but now that I have become an adult......

Finally, note the 3's in this prologue to Ecclesiastes, which is exceptional for its comic irony!
quote:
Sheer futility, Qoheleth says. Sheer futility: everything is futile!

What profit can we show for all our toil, toiling under the sun? A generation goes, a generation comes, yet the earth stands firm forever. The sun rises, the sun sets; then to its place it speeds and there it rises. Southward goes the wind, then turns to the north; it turns and turns again; then back to its circling goes the wind. Into the sea go all the rivers, and yet the sea is never filled, and still to their goal the rivers go.

ALL THINGS ARE WEARISOME! No one can say that eyes have not had enough of seeing, ears their fill of hearing!


Also, can anyone help out by providing a link to detailed instructions for MO?

Thank you,

newpov

Edited by - newpov on Oct 12 2008 10:00:27 AM
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YogaIsLife

641 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2008 :  4:05:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit YogaIsLife's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Christi and x.j.,

Thank you so much for the valuable insights! appreciate it!

Newpov, the MO is, basically and from what I understand (and how I do it), going up from the perinieum to the ajna on inhalation and then down the front of the body from there back to the perinieum on exhalation forming a circular current of energy. Search the web for this, try also thetaobums.com (search the forums).

I find this is being quite beneficial for me. Probably I had a front channel block or too much energy in the head and spinal breathing feels unconfortable, as if energy was stuck in the head. With MO the enery goes down more easily down the front.
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Nathan

47 Posts

Posted - Jan 30 2011 :  1:30:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Nathan's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,

I was just wondering if anyone else has been doing both SB and microcosmic orbit on a regular basis. I'm thinking of doing MO, to see if it's helpful, but don't want to give up SB. Some people here have cited the theory that different systems don't 'map,' so I wanted to get more feedback before proceding. Thanks.
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JDH

USA
331 Posts

Posted - Jan 30 2011 :  5:29:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
hey Nathan,

Thanks for reviving this thread, it was a good read. The bit about a reverse-direction MO is something I'll have to try out. During AYP practices, I get regular upward front channel energy flows.

Anyway, I occasionally do the MO practice, and I find it helpful, just to be aware of different energy flow tendencies that correspond to the differences in the practice. I use it as a supplement (at random times) to AYP SB rather than a replacement. I agree with a lot of the differences mentioned above about the crown, with the addition that MO gives my belly chakra a powerful pulse. I also agree SBP is gentler, more predictable, and easier to maintain as a regular practice.
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