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 Tantra - A Holistic View of Spiritual Development
 nonejaculatory orgasm or no orgasm
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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Jun 03 2008 :  11:06:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi emc,

I re-reviewed the material in the lessons on the relation between prana, life force, kundalini, oxygen and breath retention/kumbhaka:

quote:
Lesson 144:

This is a good time to mention that spinal breathing, and all
pranayama methods, are forms of kumbhaka in the sense that "restraint
of breath" (what pranayama means) places a slight challenge on the
oxygen supply in the body. This is what draws prana up into the
nervous system from its huge storehouse in the pelvic region.


quote:
Lesson 204:

8. The ability of restraint and regulation of breath to "awaken" the
vast storehouse of life-force located in our pelvic region -- sexual
energy that is drawn upward in our nervous system to compensate for a
reduced intake of oxygen when the breath is gently restrained.



quote:
Lesson 91:

Also, kumbhaka, by creating an extra demand for life force in
the body, pulls a large amount of sexual energy (kundalini) up from
the vast storehouse of prana located in the pelvis.


My confusion seems to arise from the relationship between prana, oxygen and life force in the above quotes. I have always associated oxygen and prana, at least air prana, as physical and energetic counterparts. Haich and Yesudian call oxygen the carrier of prana in the air.

1) "restraint of breath" (what pranayama means) places a slight challenge on the oxygen supply in the body

2) kumbhaka, by creating an extra demand for life force in the body

3) sexual energy that is drawn upward in our nervous system to compensate for a reduced intake of oxygen when the breath is gently restrained

And definitely life force and prana as being synonymous.

1) sexual energy (kundalini) up from the vast storehouse of prana located in the pelvis

2) The ability of restraint and regulation of breath to "awaken" the
vast storehouse of life-force located in our pelvic region

So there is a life force deficit which is a prana deficit which is an oxygen deficit caused by restraint of breath. This stimulates kundalini. And since orgasm is also loss of prana/life force, my simple logic says it follows that orgasm should stimulate kundalini like pranayama. Even more so by degree.

But obviously it doesn’t follow. I am wondering why.

Best, yb.
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yogani

USA
5192 Posts

Posted - Jun 03 2008 :  11:13:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi YB, emc and All:

Kumbhaka (breath suspension), or any "restraint of breath" (the definition of pranayama), will draw vitality into the higher neurobiology from the vast pranic storehouse of the sexual function. As many here know, deep meditation helps facilitate this process in a natural way.

Pre-orgasmic sexual stimulation will cultivate vitality into the higher neurobiology.

Orgasm will draw vitality for reproduction, which is its purpose. Hence the often-felt depletion in the higher neurobiology after orgasm occurs. If a sexual "climax" of any kind leads to a sense of depletion, then this we may choose to stay in front of next time, if our objective in sex is enlivening the higher neurobiology.

Kumbhaka and pre-orgasmic stimulation have similar effects, but are coming from two different internal dynamics. We could say that kumbhaka creates a pull on the pranic storehouse, while pre-orgasmic stimulation creates a push.

Can these two dynamics be combined at the same time for better effect? Perhaps, but it is a tricky business. We will be sure to be getting the best from both dynamics by applying sound pranayama methods during our sitting practices, and sound tantric methods in relation to our sexual lifestyle, whatever it may be (hetero, homo, solo, celibate, etc.)

All the best!

The guru is in you.

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yogibear

409 Posts

Posted - Jun 04 2008 :  08:32:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Yogani,

Thank you for your answer. The idea of kundalini stimulation via oxygen depletion is a new one to me so I am trying to reconcile it with the ideas I have already about how things work.

Pranayama creates an energy vacuum in the body as does orgasm. Different in both origin and degree.

But the effects are opposite.

While the origin of kumbhaka and tantra are opposite or different in nature, their effects are the same.

Perhaps because reproductive energy is one octive of creative kundalini energy itself it is directly depleting in its effect.

Perhaps orgasm draws on energy that is already preserved in the higher neurobiology and hence has a dissipating effect.

Every individual has a varying degree of ability to draw on kundalini, kind of like a fountain radiating up into the body from the pelvis. The faucet is open in varying degrees and we are all trying to get all the way open. At least that is how I conceive of it at this time.

quote:
Yogani wrote:

Kumbhaka and pre-orgasmic stimulation have similar effects, but are coming from two different internal dynamics. We could say that kumbhaka creates a pull on the pranic storehouse, while pre-orgasmic stimulation creates a push.


And orgasm is depleting to the pranic storehouse.

I sort of get it but not quite.

Pre-orgasmic stimulation transforms vitality up and retains it while orgasmic stimulation transforms vitality down into reproductive energy and expels it.

Oh well, what ever the case, in the real world orgasm is depleting and best avoided for bramacharya.

Thanks again, yb.
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yogani

USA
5192 Posts

Posted - Jun 04 2008 :  08:45:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi YB:

I think you have it. Pranayama (and kumbhaka) restrict our external source of vitality (oxygen) and coax the body to draw on it's internal storehouse of vitality in the pelvic region. That storehouse can also be stimulated directly via tantric sexual means. Orgasm temporarily depletes the internal storehouse. That is the essential relationship between vitality (prana), sexual energy and spiritual development. There are a thousand ways to proceed from there -- many that are practical, and some that are fanatical. We prefer the practical.

The guru is in you.

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Christi

United Kingdom
4105 Posts

Posted - Jun 04 2008 :  12:51:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi emc,
quote:
Thanks for your post, Christi.

I'm in a confused state of mind again after some time of stability... Glad you can refer to the star experience. I wouldn't be able to tell what energetics go with it, except: Strong ones! We were only holding eachother close. And after a while in the "velvet blanket sweet rolling wave energy" we kissed very lightly... and the tounge touching my mouth caused the explosion, with lots of crying afterwards (of course...)

I know many teachers say that the tounge is actually as powerful as the penis, so the tounge in the mouth is the same as a penis in vagina. So I just blew away when going into that deeper level of contact.


I tend to find that explosions of energy in the higher centres that happen during lovemaking do not depleat energy. So I regard them as fine Tantra-wise. Personally I find that hugging and kissing are a great way to explore tantra as the energy can be incredible, especially when the higher centres are open in both people, whilst the chances of going over the edge are greatly reduced.
It is interesting to hear about your experiences with the tongue, I have often felt energy coming out of my tongue, but have never felt it coming out of someone else's.

Glad to hear you are having such a great time exploring Tantra!

Christi
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2008 :  12:19:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, Christi!

I am immensly enjoying approaching tantra again... we haven't yet come to the making love part. Just being in presence with this man gets the energies going and we are both fighting our fears to approach it the whole way.

A day ago I just leaned my head against his shoulder... and this... opening started... There's like this empty space is there and allows infinite expansion. When the Man is emptiness, I as a Woman, can without fear allow this expansion to happen, and the strength of it is undescribable... it's like all Form - Everything - She - Shakti are meeting Non-form - Nothing - He - Shiva, filling the space like hand in a glove, only that the glove is infinitely large, and constantly expanding, so I can try to fill it out, but it will just expand... eternally... There are no bodies there - there's just expansion and space. And it hasn't got a single thing to do with sex... orgasm... touch or any bodily want or need...

And as soon as one of us goes into mind... the expansion stops...
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Anthem

1608 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2008 :  1:00:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm really grateful for Yogani's suggestions on this topic in this thread. I took his advise and reread some of the tantra lessons and came to the realization that I was getting "hung up" on orgasm in a sense.

With some practice over the last couple of years I became relatively proficient at feeling intense orgasmic sensations without ejaculation and looking for "achieving" ever higher peaks. When I reflect realistically, I realize now that for the most part that the majority of these orgasmic sensations occurred primarily in the root chakra and in the lower portions of the spinal nerve. It was only after finding this no longer that interesting that I began to look in another direction and came to see that I was missing the boat a little bit here and missing out on something far more fulfilling. The time spent exploring non genital orgasm was however a positive development for me as it moved me away from traditional ejaculatory orgasms and moved me into looking in new directions.

I see now that I was still seeing sexuality in a more dualistic way, looking for peak experience, instead of finding the peak in every moment. It is there in every moment that total satisfaction is found though it may take some time to see. The experience now is far more vast and fulfilling and stays with me in wonderful ways throughout the day. I look forward to bringing my partner along this road and exploring further and I will do so by following the simple directions in the tantra lessons.

I'm sharing here in case others are in the same boat and want to know how to dive into the ocean.
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2008 :  4:15:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, Anthem, finding the peak in every moment...

The thing is... the man has to be ready to die for this love. He has to. It's the empty man that draws the immense love out from the woman. If there's a person standing in the way with any egotistical needs or self-consideration whatsoever... love won't explode... But if there's just emptiness there... the expansion and explosion of love is enabled.

The now is constantly exploding seeds of potentials coming into manifestation. And as soon as they have exploded - they are old, they are the past - every explosion has to be let go of immediately in order to allow a new one, and a new, and a new... never ending newness... A constant bursting out of beauty and a constant let go... Like... being on the edge, on the fine border where the frequency is exactly where light appears. Consciousness moves with the speed of light......... Being consciousness as it comes into manifestation... now... now... now... creating this dance of light... appearing as form...

It's all so logical... There has to be movement or It would not be able to know Itself... it knows itself through form. It has to be two poles to make action. One can never know itself as One.
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Kris

United Kingdom
18 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2008 :  04:46:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit Kris's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I'd just like to compliment the contributors on this thread, as I have read some wonderful stuff. For me, I have lost my belief that sexual energy can be ever understood, harnessed or whatever one calls it. I have had the fortune? of only once experiencing "true" kundalini, but never again. I, therefore, 'know' beyond doubt that kundalini exists but it seems to be a law unto itself and not really connected to any 'outer' - or physical - sexual practices.
Within this body of four elements there is a cycle of reproductivity and need for sexual release - it's mental, biological, addictive and has its limits. We can all observe this cycle and also know that we are bound to it and the limits it imposes. Kundalini is different. It is internal 'non-gross body' and connected to the dream body or astral body, so external arousal (however refined, mind-blowing, beautiful and enjoyable) never touches it. I don't think 'external' sex of any kind will ever get you there.
I'm not against sex, as I enjoy it too - in fact I find my body needs it in order to keep in healthy balance. If I avoid sex, I tend to get weak, absent minded or ill. My sexuality is definitely connected to the phases of the Moon (which manifests as female to me). About every 9 to 10 days (thrice monthly) I must have release, either with or without a partner. The Goddess has three faces for waxing, full and waning and I am governed by them.

Kundalini is beyond this and its bliss is like comparing the sun to a candle, where orgasm is the candle. But we live in darkness and when the sun does not shine we take the light we can get.

I wish you all well in your quest.

Love
Kris
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