|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 08:47:40 AM
|
Alvin wrote:
"What Bob Cooley wrote is (mainly) the contraction/relaxation (CR)method, though he may used different names. An effective way of stretching, of course. (But, btw, I don't think he is the first one to come up with that. I found a couple of books talking about this. But Bob Cooley seems to be a better advertiser.) "
That doesn't sound the same as what's in my "Genius of Flexibility" book. Do you have an earlier book maybe? The book I have doesn't say contract and relax. It says contract and resist, then move through the range of motion with the resistance. Is this what the other books say?
The clove powder doesn't help healing; what it is for is numbing. Oil of clove also does that and may be easier to apply.
|
 |
|
|
Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 09:40:13 AM
|
I have only glimpsed through Bob Cooley's book in a bookstore. The CR method is more well-known and that's what I found in other books. One of my yoga teachers (trained primarily as a ballet dancer before she turned into yoga) teaches BOTH of the methods here, depending on what postures are being done. But for stretching poses (as opposed to, e.g., the warriors) she always tell us to use the CR method.
Bob Cooley's method is a slight variation of the CR method. The "philosophy" behind is the similar. I am not sure if his method(removing the relaxing part and moving around with the tension?) is really better, but it's unlikely. I could see that his method may be better on "strengthening and increasing range of motions" achieved together, but for "increasing range of motions", CR is probably better.
So Bob Cooley's method is not bad. It's an efficient way of stretching and strengthening. But what he claimed about the other "physiological, spiritual, emotional and psychological concerns" is highly overstated. I think he simply copied much of it from Chinese medical knowledge, which may be rare in USA but is very common here in my country.
BTW, there are many such kind of things in recent years. They contained either something which does not work at all or which is a very rough copy from a higher source. Remember the "The Photoreading Whole Mind System"? When it first appeared, many people praised highly about this system. But only the truth will last for long. This system simply doesn't work. (well, at least it isn't better than what you've known already.) So it can't arouse our interests for very long.
------------------------------
Unfortunately I am highly sensitive to clove, so I can't use it for numbing. What actually is "Anbesol"? Can't google it out. |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 10:47:22 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
hi meg and Shanti,
Healing in one day is relly quick. How much do you snip? Is the quick healing related to the use of Anbesol/Clove powerder?
Meg, in those days where you snip everyday, did you snip along the same edge?
It makes sense that snipping too much on one day do not help much. In the long run, we'll have to wait for the new fibers to come outward anyway. But I am thinking about snipping in different positions of greatest tension, by stretching the tongue sideway in stead of up and backward. The tautest position will be different then. Did anyone try this? And does it help?
Alvin
Hi Alvin - Anbesol is an oral pain reliever containing Benzocaine. When I snipped every day, it was when I was in the stage that you're in now, where there was excess frenum that cut away very quickly. I mistakenly thought that it was always going to be that easy. When I got to the meatier portion (closer to the base of the tongue) I had to back off, and then experimented with the approach that David calls "tooled talavya kriya" . (Do a search and read up on it - it's good). Definitely always snip along the same edge. There's no point in snipping at more than one spot, as is explained in the post on tooled talavya. Once I started doing that, I could no longer snip every day, and there wasn't any point in it anyway. But this is a bit presumptuous of me - I'm like a virgin giving advice on tantric sex.  Best to listen to the pros who are actually practicing kechari. |
|
|
|
Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 11:07:03 AM
|
| Hi meg, So you're reaching that terrible stage already, in just a few months...I hope I can stay away from David's method for as long as I could (and yet going quick. Am I asking for too much?). So which stage you're in now? And how much did you improved by snipping that quick? |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 10:29:32 AM
|
Hey Alvin - Word has it that in fact it IS okay to snip in several spots on the frenum. Sorry for the misinformation, although it makes the most sense to me to stick to one cut. Will someone plz correct me on this? B'c I thought one cut was the way to go.
Yes, you may well be asking for too much. Your tongue will go into kechari when ready, and all you can do is help it along a little. My tongue is to the back of my throat, but I can't seem to get it 'around the bend'. How much did I gain by snipping so quickly? Hard to say. It got me to this stage faster, but now it's going very slowly, so perhaps there was no gain at all. Slow and steady is probably the best method. |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 11:11:44 AM
|
Clipping in lots of different places is a valid approach. I have done it. A lot depends on what stage in the clipping you are at. While the frenal membrane is still there ( that sharp edge) it might not be as useful -- while the frenal membrane is still there, it might be better to clip again at the same spot in the one session.
But over time when the edge flattens out from clipping, clipping in several spots is an approach. If you do this, there may be a certain amount of redundancy (wastage) in your clipping. For example, you may clip the same fiber twice in two places, along the length of the frenum. At the same time, this wastage is not harmful.
One approach is to speckle the frenum surface with lots of small clips. Another is to clip a series of points across the frenum; this will ensure that there is no redundancy, but it takes more skill and effort.
I hope that helps.
-D |
|
|
|
rat
3 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 12:18:15 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by meg
Hi Dave-rat - This is not an answer to your question, but I've been trying for some time to push my tongue back with my fingers, and I've been a frenum-snipping fool as well, but still no kechari. I'm thinking, therefore, that your frenum may not need any cutting, or possibly only a small amount in order to get your tongue to stay in the nasal cavity by itself. Lucky you. And then once you're up there, you'll probably eventually want to go further up with your tongue, as there are more surprises further on up the passage, so I would imagine that at some point you're going to want to lengthen your tongue a bit. If you're averse to cutting, you might try milking, or stretching the tongue. There are many posts on this, if you're interested.
|
|
|
|
rat
3 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 12:34:15 PM
|
Thanks meg
It did take several months for me to get my tongue in the nasal passage even with my fingers. I do think that all things take time. From what I have heard from other schools of yoga is that it can take years. I do know that a lot of importance is put on kechari. The first time it went up there it felt really intense. I actually felt voilated! It took a couple of times to get used to it. It was just the tip and it did not stay in. Now it is held in by he membrane for a while. It is just there but when I try to do some pranayams with it up there it pops out. I will keep it up and keep trying. When I try without using my fingers it is not even close. I will see what happens. Thanks for your response. How lucky we are for this online satsang.
Dave |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 4:39:12 PM
|
I think you may be judging Bob Cooley too quickly.
His claims were originally just flexibility, then he noticed the other effects as a by-product.
It's not one of those flash-in-the-pan systems that die out quickly. I've noticed a big difference between the stretching I do three times a week with instructors from ballet and martial arts backgrounds, and his method.
Those don't have a lasting effect, but his does.
His system has been growing rapidly for 15 years, and he works with olympic athletes, sports teams and universities. Yes it does mix traditional Chinese medicine with Yoga, but that's another subject for over here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=692
True, Chinese Medicine is not generally accepted as legitimate in the USA, but it's catching on.
Not that a longer muscle would do you any good for kechari though!
|
|
|
|
Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 09:43:47 AM
|
I tried snipping once at one side of the frenum, the tautest spot when I stretched sideway. I notice that there are considerably more blood, around 10 drops. There would be more, but I pressed on it for a while and it stopped. Is this normal when we snip somewhere other than the frenum membrane?
Also, there are two purple lines running from (the bottom side of) the tongue to the frenum, which I think are blood vessels. At the frenum, they lie in some crucial area. How do you avoid snipping them after the frenum membrane is gone? |
|
|
|
yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 10:14:17 AM
|
Hi Alvin:
Those purple lines are blood vessels and you should never snip near those.
The side snipping you are doing is not recommended -- it is not the right place, and is very risky...
If you stay on the protruding edge of the center tendon, at the point of greatest tension, and follow a slow course as per Lesson 108, the blood vessels on either side will not be an issue. If there is no protruding frenum edge in the center, then wait for one -- it will come up eventually as the tongue goes back and upward. If your bhakti and the corresponding energy flow are not yet taking the tongue naturally in that direction, then you are most likely premature with the snipping. My advice is, slow down.
The guru is in you.
|
|
|
|
Vicki
Ireland
20 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2006 : 09:23:14 AM
|
Hi Victor,
This is my first post but I have been finding the forum very informative and supportive, as I can often feel quite isolated in my practise. I practise kriya yoga as taught by my teacher in India, and have recently got to stage 2 in Khechari after 17 months of natural practise. I have felt a big difference after achieving this. I am eager for the tongue to go further up and wonder if that process is as great a leap as from stage 1 to 2? I am also very interested in your experiences of how it has changed your practise.
|
|
|
|
Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2006 : 12:03:12 PM
|
Hi Vicki,
Nice to see a female name sake on the board 
The tongue getting past the palate seems like the big hurdle to me. The next real step is developing comfort in the practice so that it becomes second nature. Rather than feeling like a big leap for me the practice of kechari felt more like a piece of the puzzle that fit perfectly into place once it was learned. It took my pranayama practice to the next level and allowed me to feel like i could meditate for the first time. Didn't get lights and sounds or anything dramatic, just a deepening of practices that I had already been doing. It feels part of me now like my smile or the way that I sit or how I breathe. After experimenting I also have found that it doesn't go well for me in general asana practice but helps alot in focus during pranayama and meditation going along with shambhavi mudra and the bandhas to bring the gaze and energy focus to the third eye point. |
Edited by - Victor on Mar 01 2006 12:03:46 PM |
|
|
|
Vicki
Ireland
20 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2006 : 1:38:33 PM
|
Thanks Victor,
At present I can hold the tongue in Khechari for a while but saliva build up causes me to break it. Does it take a while to increase the amount of time the tongue can be left up without having to come down again to swallow? |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2006 : 2:17:39 PM
|
Yup it takes a while. Not too long though, more like days or weeks than months.
-Not Victor.
|
|
|
|
alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2006 : 3:49:41 PM
|
hello; i want to pick up on the advanced kechari thread 
i was fortunate to succeed in kechari quite quickly and easily. a week or two and i was at the top of the pharynx striving to go beyond the strain, and also exploring into the nasal cavities. that was last june and i am now well familiar with kechari in my daily yoga. the benefits of depth and silence are great. i can stay erect at the base of the skull,or laying the tongue-tip into the left nostril, just in over the round thing and up against the clefts in the membranes while doing my breath-work, but during meditation usually relax along the septum as it is easier to forget the tongue in that relaxed position and let go into deep. there are differences in conductivity in each position, though sometimes that isn't the case and conductivity is as strong in either position. also, conductivity is sometimes noticed only after, while up and about. when i really want to get things moving (besides focusing more intently on my pranic breathing) i find that pushing up into the nasal clefts really jazzes it up.
i'm curious about advanced kechari. i find no literature on this.
i feel that the tongue could go up further. which way would this be? forward, or upward? will a way open up naturally when i'm ready? is there really any benefit to going further, or will Soma fall when the time comes anyway?
Light and Love, alan |
Edited by - alan on Mar 28 2006 4:09:07 PM |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2006 : 5:26:50 PM
|
Alan,
I haven't gone into the nostrils yet myself (though my tongue is long enough) -- it sounds like you are starting to, though it isn't totally clear to me.
Yogani does have instructions on getting through the nostrils into stage 4. Did you see them yet?
|
|
|
|
alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2006 : 6:40:29 PM
|
hi David; i was into the nostrils within the first week or two. very sensitive at first, not so much now. like Victor, kechari is what brought me to AYP. i've been using kechari since last june. there is a vertical cleft in the membranes, up inside the left nostril that leads forward and upward, that my tongue pushes into. due to the tightness of the cleft i can push only so far. my intuition tells me that maybe this will open up naturally when i am ready. i try to turn my tongue top to the center while pushing into the cleft as i read in an AYP lesson. is this the stage 4 lesson to which you refer? or are there further instructions i haven't read?   these faces are fun! |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2006 : 6:54:20 PM
|
Hello Alan,
for instructions on entering stage 4 I mean Yogani's lesson here:
http://www.aypsite.org/108.html
If you decide to do it, make sure you have followed all the cautions on self-pacing.
Regards,
-D
|
|
|
|
Lavazza
69 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2006 : 7:02:27 PM
|
| I can go into my nostrils, but I feel that I only get conductivity with the base of the tip of my tongue resting on the soft palate in stage 2. |
|
|
|
alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2006 : 7:30:18 PM
|
| thanks David. that's the lesson i'm familiar with. if going into the left nasal cavity a ways and pushing against the inner membranes is stage 4, then i guess i'm there. something tells me though that the narrow passage deep inside the nostril will relax and open up someday, if need be. i find depth and conductivity just resting against the septum, though. my most dear teacher says this is really quite enough for following his instruction. i guess i can't help myself since my tongue so easily explores this inner environment. lots of Love, alan |
|
|
|
yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2006 : 9:19:09 PM
|
Hi Alan:
Not to disappoint, but the nasal openings from inside are limited by bone all the way around, including the septum in the center. If you look at a skull you will see the thin bone in the center of the nasal opening. The opening will not change much. The way further in is by whatever can be done with the tongue -- twisting, pushing, stretching, etc.
But it is not that big a deal really. After 20 years of playing with kechari, I stay mostly around the septum -- the "secret spot," and use stage 4 (into the nostrils) sometimes for alternate nostril breathing from the inside when doing chin pump. It can be used that way with any form of pranayama, including spinal breathing. But be careful not to overdo it. Once ecstatic conductivity is coming up, less can be more.
You have the angles and everything right for stage 4. It will go as far as it can go. Up is where there is the most running room in my case. Some don't do stage 4 at all due to anatomy. I don't think it makes a big difference. Many reach higher levels of ecstatic conductivity with stage 1 alone. There are few absolutes in this world, and the level of kechari we achieve is not one of them. (Though getting above the soft palate is obviously a pretty big step.)
The guru is in you. |
|
|
|
alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2006 : 9:22:47 PM
|
| Cool! Thanks Yogani. |
|
|
|
sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2006 : 10:47:10 AM
|
Hi everyone
Just thought I'd let you know how Im getting on a la kechari. Have been stretching the tongue a lot and am now quite far back.
I went to see my local friendly dentist and talked about having the frenum removed safely...he explained it was very simple and very safe and would do it for about £200 ($350 ish). So I am booked in and going to do it. Might be sore for a little while but shouldnt be any problems. If there are I will let you all know!!!
I decided to go this route because I simply couldnt face mucking about with a pair of cuticle snippers, and am rather accident prone, so possibly might have removed some of my arteries at the same time! Seriously, I think its the best route FOR ME. Will let y'all know how I get on. |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2006 : 12:29:54 PM
|
Thanks, Sparky. Let us know how it goes. I am curious about whether he really removes the whole frenum....
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
Kechari Mudra
