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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 22 2006 : 8:40:53 PM
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| yes thats it! now just explore the cavity and get used to your tongue staying up there for a longer time |
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Lavazza
69 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2006 : 05:02:51 AM
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| Thanks, Victor. If we are talking about the same place there is one cavity for each nostril. First there is the nostril, some millimetres further up there is a smaller hole, and and further up there is a small cavity. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2006 : 1:41:26 PM
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| just explore the whole region until it becomes familiar. no right or wrong there |
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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - Feb 09 2006 : 11:53:43 AM
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Hi
I thought people might be interested in the info I found out about Kechari. I am a complete beginner with regards to kechari and have spent a long time doing my research, gathering material from lots of places, although since reading Yogani's writings I have sppeeded up somewhat!
This is to do with stretching the soft palate. Hope people find it interesting.
"One thing that helps speed up getting the tongue back past the uvula is to use a spoon in addition to the two methods of stretching the tongue. The spoon is used to stretch the soft material from which the uvulahangs down. (I suggest a spoon simply because even the sides of the handle are generally rounded and won't cut into the soft material.)
Take a spoon and bend the last half inch or so, of the end of the
handle, at a ninety degree angle. Stick the spoon handle back into your mouth (you will be holding the rounded part that is normally used to for eating) until it is just past the uvula and then raise it up and use it to pull on the soft area of the palate and stretch it towards the front of your mouth. It should stretch fairly easily. This will help you to get your tongue behind the uvula and pointing upwards (you will be able to feel the back entrances of the nostrils), but you will no doubt still have to work on stretching the tongue with the other two methods in order to get the tongue high enough in the buccal cavity to touch the top."
I should point out that I secured a cocktail spoon, a long one, and have bent the end of the handle back to try to achieve the desired effect. So far I am unable to get there without wanting to vomit.
And after many years of not wanting to even contemplate snipping the frenum I am now considering asking my friendly dentist to get her laser out. (!)
I am still taking my time but now realise how important the technique is. I am sure it is one of Life's great Secrets.
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2006 : 10:15:21 AM
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Hi SparkyfoxMD:
Thanks for posting that. Below is my reply that was sent when we discussed this in email some weeks ago.
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There can be some short term benefit in the spoon technique you mention for stretching the soft palate to achieve initial entry into stage 2 kechari. But I don't see much value in it beyond that, as it is the degree of freedom of the tongue from the frenum tying it down underneath that determines both short term and long term progress in the practice. The soft palate has a certain "home position" that it always returns to (thankfully), so there is no progression of more release or stretching of the soft palate over time. Once the hymen-like band across the back edge of the soft palate has been stretched (by tongue entry which can be with finger help and/or the spoon method you mention), then the deed is done, and it will be the degree of tongue freedom that will determine progress from then on. This can be seen in the kechari diagrams here: http://www.aypsite.org/kechari_image1.html
Posting the spoon technique would be of interest to kechari connoisseurs in the AYP forum, so please consider doing so. Aside from sharing, I expect you would get some useful feedback, as there are others who are in kechari stage 2 and beyond there. You can pull up numerous topics on kechari by doing a forum search. Some of the methods discussed are quite creative. Where there is a will, there is a way when the bhakti and inner energies are right for it.
The soft palate is much less of an obstacle than it appears. It is a trap door that folds down once the tongue gets behind (left or right side will be the shortest path). I suggest you follow your heart on kechari, taking your time, going step by step. I do not subscribe much to radical means like surgery (see lesson #108 for the "tiny snips" approach), though some are driven to that by their own bhakti. It is a personal choice. You may wish to interact with some in the forum to gain more perspectives.
Keep in mind that AYP is a comprehensive integrated open source on practices, of which kechari is only one aspect. In AYP there are suggested prerequisites to kechari including deep meditation, spinal breathing, other mudras and bandhas and more, all of which work together to cultivate unshakable inner silence, ecstatic bliss and outpouring divine love.
The guru is in you.
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rat
3 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2006 : 2:38:07 PM
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I have been able to use two fingers and push my toungue back into the nasel cavity. Why is this not good enough? I have done this about 10 times and each time it is a little easier and will stay longer held by the membrane. Is it necessary that the toungue be able to go back by itself? Is it not just as effective if I need to use my fingers to get it there? It seems that ths saves a lot of cutting.
Dave (rat) |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2006 : 4:43:14 PM
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| Hi Dave-rat - This is not an answer to your question, but I've been trying for some time to push my tongue back with my fingers, and I've been a frenum-snipping fool as well, but still no kechari. I'm thinking, therefore, that your frenum may not need any cutting, or possibly only a small amount in order to get your tongue to stay in the nasal cavity by itself. Lucky you. And then once you're up there, you'll probably eventually want to go further up with your tongue, as there are more surprises further on up the passage, so I would imagine that at some point you're going to want to lengthen your tongue a bit. If you're averse to cutting, you might try milking, or stretching the tongue. There are many posts on this, if you're interested. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2006 : 9:12:38 PM
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| sparkyfoxMD, thanks for the great posting. Please post more. It's so GREAT to see different perspectives on all this stuff!! |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2006 : 11:53:13 PM
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Hi all,
Some beginner questions here:
1.
I am not an English speaker, and I can't find "cuticle snipper" in my dictionary. What actually is cuticle snipper for ? I mean the original use of it.
2.
When I stretch my tongue up, the greatest stress on the frenum is along the whole edge of the frenal membrane. Should I snip closer to the higher (ie.,closer to the tongue) or lower end? Or it's not that important?
Alvin |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 12:06:07 AM
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the cuticle snipper is a small scissor for fingernail care, I think to cut small pieces of skin at the bottom of the nail (cuticle).
This is something you don't usually do, but if a little piece sticks out it's painful. Google "cuticle scissor" |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 21 2006 12:08:48 AM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 12:08:25 PM
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| actually, teh term scissor could be confusing as a cuticle snipper is not a scissor but more similat to a wire clipper where the blades do not cross |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 7:42:51 PM
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oops, google cuticle snipper
Alvin's probably still waiting for an answer to the second question but I can't help. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2006 : 8:15:12 PM
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| Alvin - I snip in the middle, where it's the thinnest. The key is to keep snipping in the same spot; don't move up or down the frenum for more coverage, as it doesn't work that way. Snip, let it heal, snip again in the same spot, etc. And milking, or stretching, the tongue in between snips is highly recommended. Just yank on your tongue. |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 08:56:40 AM
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Thanks very much for the reply. I will start snipping soon.
Actually, I asked because I googled "cuticle snipper" but it gave only a few not very helpful results. (in fact I got a few yoga sites including AYP, and a yoga forum where Victor is a frequent visitor!) The supposedly wrong name "cuticle scissor" give me much more pictures to see what it is! |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 09:26:27 AM
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| Cuticle snippers are common in drugstores here in the US. All of the chains certainly have them. I don't know what it is like in Hong Kong. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 12:13:50 PM
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| I got much better results on Google doinga search for cuticle NIPPER click here |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 02:24:50 AM
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| Oh, thanks victor. Seems that I misunderstood what it is before. Fortunately I have not yet bought one. I guess the reason for using it (rather than e.g. a knife or a scissor) is the precision it gives? |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 12:24:32 PM
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| Yes Alvin, it gives a more precise cut and you need precision for this delicate job |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2006 : 11:47:47 PM
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I snipped yesterday. There was some blood. The frenum membrane now almost disappeared, and i could feel the improvement in tongue flexibility. (though I am still in stage 1, and I have not started doing Kechari) But i think my next snip would be more painful and would bring out less flexibility gained since I have to start working with something "thicker".
From my very limited experience of stretching my tongue, the frenum (frenum membrane, as I still had it before) seems to be going downward (towards the base of the tongue) and the whole edge get closer to the tongue surface. This makes the frenum less visible (and harder to snip) while not much improvement in tongue is gained! That's why I decided to snip without further stretching. It seems to me that "milking" may also bring the frenum edge less visible. What's the experience of the others?
I am thinking of a way to make the frenum thinner and coming outward, but so far it's purely "thought-experiment" without actual trying. So I'll tell you guys only after I tested it. If it doesn't work, then I'll have to use David's "tooled talavya kriya" very soon. That's rather violent for me..... |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2006 : 12:54:50 AM
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Alvin, I am pleased to see that a skeptic such as yourself has the faith to try something as committed as tongue snipping. It is very imressive!
I would work on stretching your tongue at this point, I think that the word stretching is better than milking really. Just when you have a chance in privacy just dry your tongue out a bit so you can hold it with your fingers or a cloth and gently stretch it in different directions. Don't snip again until this one heals (generally a week or two). then when you feel that it has healed repeat the process. It may take some time before you get to kechari but yoga has never been for those who lack patience.
I salute you! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2006 : 08:15:51 AM
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| I wonder if Bob Cooley's discovery would make any difference here? He discovered that the only way to get a lasting stretch of a muscle is the muscle must be contracting as you are stretching it, and there must be full range of movement also. So to apply that here, the tongue would have to be resisting the whole time, then your fingers slowly pulling it from shortest to longest position, several reps. The harder the resistance the better. Haven't tried this on my tongue, but with other muscles it works. |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2006 : 09:26:06 AM
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Hi Etherfish,
It will not work in stretching the tongue, but will probably work in the milking stage.
What Bob Cooley wrote is (mainly) the contraction/relaxation (CR)method, though he may used different names. An effective way of stretching, of course. (But, btw, I don't think he is the first one to come up with that. I found a couple of books talking about this. But Bob Cooley seems to be a better advertiser.)
In the usual muscles, what we think we're stretching are the tendons which connect the muscles and bones (the "lever") together. But the length of the muscles is actually more crucial for flexibility. As our muscles get leaner or more relaxed, it becomes longer, and we become more flexible. That's why even in a single day, you may find your flexibility changes. That's because you tends to have tighter muscles sometimes, e.g. in the morning. So, what we're working on, is more the muscles than the tendon. If we are able to relax more the muscles we're stretching, we will find our flexibility improved much both immediately and in the long run. The CR method works well because it makes use of the information from stretching (usually consists of slight pain or discomfort in the muscles you're stretching), helps you build up awareness or that muscles (by feeling and then tightening them); and the "relax" part will then be more effective. Probably (this part is my guess) it also works by engaging the muscles actively, so that the rearrangement/repairing of muscles tissues is faster after the practice.
The difference here, for the tongue, is that the fiber (in the frenum) we want to "stretch" is NOT attached to the muscles of the tongue. So contracting the tongue against the stretch will not have the same effects here.
However, I think it's a nice idea to do it in milking, where we literally want the tongue muscles (rather than the fibers in the frenum) to be longer.
Alvin |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Feb 25 2006 09:37:36 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2006 : 10:39:59 AM
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| I was really scared to snip the frenum membrane. So I took the easy way out. I applied Anbesol to my frenum. Then when I snipped it, I felt nothing. I washed my mouth with mouthwash. Since it was numb, I did not feel the burn. Maybe because the mouthwash was an antiseptic, the snip healed in a day. Actually, the next day itself, I had no pain. Is this OK to do? |
Edited by - Shanti on Feb 25 2006 10:52:24 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2006 : 12:00:08 PM
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| Shanti - I tried the Anbesol too. I didn't like it b'c of the taste and texture, and wasn't sure about the safety of it when cutting deep. (It may be fine, but I didn't want to take any chances). Someone here on the forum suggested clove powder, which I like very much. Nice numbing and okay taste. My snips heal very quickly too - by the next day they're almost completely healed over, but I've been waiting to cut again, rather than cutting every day, as ultimately I don't think it provided much progress. Once a week or so is probably better. That's what everyone has said all along, but I have to figure these things out on my own. :) |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 12:30:39 AM
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hi meg and Shanti,
Healing in one day is relly quick. How much do you snip? Is the quick healing related to the use of Anbesol/Clove powerder?
Meg, in those days where you snip everyday, did you snip along the same edge?
It makes sense that snipping too much on one day do not help much. In the long run, we'll have to wait for the new fibers to come outward anyway. But I am thinking about snipping in different positions of greatest tension, by stretching the tongue sideway in stead of up and backward. The tautest position will be different then. Did anyone try this? And does it help?
Alvin |
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