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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2005 :  03:10:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
I am curious here about who is doing Kechari Mudra and how the practice has changed their pranayama/meditation.
Kechari Mudra was what actually led me to AYP as I had heard of it, even played around with it a bit but had never been actually taught the practice as such and details of how to develop the ability and how to utilize it in Yoga. I now practice Kechari every time that I do pranayama and meditation and must say that this combined with the rest of AYP has really transformed my practice! There is much to share here but I am interested to see who is practicing this and if it is just a small percentage of AYP people or if more are considering it fundemental to the practice as I do.

Jim and His Karma

2103 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2005 :  10:15:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I always touch the roof of my mouth just behind the teeth. I don't get any noticable improvement if I go back to the joining of hard and soft palates, and my jaw gets tired after 5 mins like that. Can't get tongue behind uvula yet.

I'm wondering if it might not be a bad idea to have a dental surgeon do a frenectomy...take a lot of the jitters out of the process....
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2005 :  10:28:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Victor,

I'm doing Kechari Mudra too and getting great benefit out of it. I was taught it years ago by a Kriya Yoga school, but they teach nothing about frenum-snipping. It was only just over a year ago that I found out that frenum-snipping was a practice ( I did it once or maybe twice myself without being taught) and it was on a google search for frenum-snipping information that I found AYP. So Kechari Mudra was also what led *me* to AYP.

-David
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n/a

206 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2005 :  11:46:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit n/a's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Victor -

I am just doing the beginning stages of kechari as explained in the yoni mudra kumbhaka lesson. I could just go to the very edge of the elastic tendon along the back of the soft palate (with finger help) but I really need to start snipping I think. I have just been reluctant to start (I am a huge WIMP, although I did purchase a pair of cuticle nippers). I can't say I have really noticed a whole lot but I have only been at it a couple of weeks now.

I do have a dental appointment next week and a pretty progressive-thinking dentist . . . . AND he uses lots of anesthetic too because he knows what a wimp I am. Hmmmm . . . . .
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2005 :  12:28:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hmmm...
I think that a cooperative dentist or oral surgeon might be a good idea. Only problem I can think of is that it could be a bit expensive as it may not be covered by insurance.
I tried the snipping one time and may have snipped a little much the first time because I got a bit of a dull ache for several days and it took about a week and a half to fully heal. I was fortunate due to genetics or karma or whatever to not have much of a frenum to start with and I could get my tongue behind the uvula for as long as I can remember. What yogani gave me was the clear instructions on how to work on this practice and I am deeply grateful for that. Using kechari really changes the way the breath functions during pranayama and that is a main reason for this post. To compare notes on this with other practitioners as well as give those who are working on it an idea of what to expect.
Currently I rest my tongue in stage 3 (tip touching the septum of the nostrils from the inside)during practice. One observation is that this changes the energetics of kumbhaka. Previously while holding the breath there was a clear closing of the throat and while that is still certainly possible there does seem to be a phenomena that happens when I retain teh breath in kechari with the throat open or very slightly modulated. Kechari seems to direct energy clearly upwards at this point to the head and when doing kumbhaka with the throat slightly open it really becomes apparent as streaming energy courses upwards through the body. Sometimes this streaming energy encourages my chest to lift more and then the throat lightly closes but it is a very light modulation of the throat ratrher than a sealing under pressure. I hope I described this well.
Does anyone have similar experiences? Perhaps David? So much has been spoken in the yahoo group about how to snip the tongue in order to get this practice started but not much has been said about how kechari changes energetics of the actual practice.
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Richard

United Kingdom
857 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2005 :  1:00:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
[quote]Originally posted by Victor

I am curious here about who is doing Kechari Mudra and how the practice has changed their pranayama/meditation.

Hi Victor, my tongue seems to rest in stage one Kechari naturally during pranayama and meditation. I have tried taking it further but I cant seem to get beyond the gag reflex So I have assumed I am not quite ready for it yet.

R.C.

RICHARD
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2005 :  1:40:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Victor

Hmmm...
I think that a cooperative dentist or oral surgeon might be a good idea. Only problem I can think of is that it could be a bit expensive as it may not be covered by insurance.


I'd be very surprised if anyone can convince an oral surgeon to do this in the U.S. anyway. Even if they wanted to, they might not want to because of the threat of lawsuits. The frenum can be quite big -- in my case, at its base it was probably a lot thicker than my thumb. A removal all-at-once might be quite traumatic, maybe like having a tooth extracted.

But if anyone does find an oral surgeon who would be willing to do that, I'd be very curious to hear about it.

BTW, I do have more to say about my experiences in Kechari, and will get back with more soon.

-David

Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 26 2005 2:33:34 PM
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2005 :  3:13:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
thicker than your thumb??? Are you sure that you are talking about your frenum and not the whole base of your tongue? my understanding is that the frenum is the thin tendom that runds through the center and as such could not be compared to a thumb but more like a pisece of string!
Anyway, my dentist in San Francisco says that he is willing to do it as it is a common procedure that is done to relive "tongue tiedness" or a condition where the frenum is so tight tht it makes it difficult to speak and have normal movements of the tongue. this would just be an elective version of the same procedure in a healthy patient who wanted additional mobility. It is certainly much simpler and less invasive than the many plastic surgery operations that are frequently done for peoples vanity!
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2005 :  3:47:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Victor

thicker than your thumb??? Are you sure that you are talking about your frenum and not the whole base of your tongue? my understanding is that the frenum is the thin tendom that runds through the center and as such could not be compared to a thumb but more like a pisece of string!
Anyway, my dentist in San Francisco says that he is willing to do it as it is a common procedure that is done to relive "tongue tiedness" or a condition where the frenum is so tight tht it makes it difficult to speak and have normal movements of the tongue. this would just be an elective version of the same procedure in a healthy patient who wanted additional mobility. It is certainly much simpler and less invasive than the many plastic surgery operations that are frequently done for peoples vanity!



Hello Victor,

Oh yes, I'm serious about it being as thick as my thumb at the base. It looks like there is a lot of bio-individuality in this. A lot of it is 'half inside' the tongue in its natural state. It's only with snipping that more of it comes to the surface.

That thumb-sized thing is down to less than a pinkie-finger in size now. When I say thumb-sized though, don't let the description mislead you --- it is not circular in shape, and as I said, most of it is 'inside' the tongue at any time. At this point in fact, pretty much none of it protrudes. And at the base it is squishy and flexible, containing lots of tendon-fibers but not as densely as it used to be in the more stringy area closer to the tip.

My impression is that some of the tendon-fibers in the squishy area at the base (further back inside the tongue) go up somewhere close to the tip which is not exposed at the surface. Anyway, they are certainly 'limiting' fibers for tongue extension, which I know because they become taut and hard when I pull out my tongue. Actually, I take advantage of this in the frenum-snipping technique I am using.

Your frenum may be sufficiently non-limiting that you won't need the whole thing removed. I was aware of that procedure for dealing with tongue-tiedness, but it wouldn't be enough in a case like mine --- I am at the other extreme of this biology --- after the earliest snipping, (when I got a lot of bang-for-my-snip) I have had to do a LOT of snipping to get far. Actually, I am doubly disadvantaged, because apart from having an elaborate and very limiting frenum, I think I also have a very long soft palate -- my tongue can now come out I'd say five or six centimeters from my front teeth and I still can't get it over the soft palate.

Another thing -- I've pretty much snipped away all frenum that is visible on the upper half of my tongue (when I put it 'up') and I've reached a limit there. I have to work on the bottom half to get anywhere now. I do know that Yogani did not have to do this---he was able to work on the top alone in order to get his tongue to any level of freedom that he needed. [It is possible that this condition is the result of the speed at which I have been snipping --- and that if I wait long enough, more fibers will be exposed at the tip. I don't know about this, and I don't need to, since there are still fibers well-exposed at the bottom that I can work on].


And no, I'm not cutting my tongue itself!! That would hurt and bleed like hell and what I am doing does not.

I don't think I'll get significant mobility from here until nearly all of my frenum is gone. (There is a lot remaining and it is all much the same length.) I'm using a different frenum-snipping technique now, one I developed from experimentation, which does not use the cuticle-snipper, and I might be able to be convinced to explain it individually to people if they are interested in it (I call it 'tooled talavya'.) But I'm not going to post it up for general use, (at least not now -- I may convince myself to later) because I think it requires more skill than the cuticle-snipper-based method in order to do it well. This alternative technique though allows for much more significant, and therefore much faster frenum-snipping, and is particularly helpful when the frenum no longer protrudes from the surface of the underside of the tongue, as in my case.

>> It is certainly much simpler and less invasive than the many plastic surgery operations that are frequently done for peoples vanity!

Absolutely. But the law isn't necessarily smart, juries even less smart, and a surgeon who does a common procedure, even if done only for vanity, is on safer legal territory than a surgeon who does a very unusual one, even if it is for a much more profound reason. So I think if an oral surgeon is asked to remove a really big chunk of frenum ( a qualitatively different operation to the less invasive tongue-tiedness one) he or she may balk. But maybe not...


-D


Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 26 2005 10:02:28 PM
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veritasophia

USA
9 Posts

Posted - Aug 05 2005 :  11:11:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit veritasophia's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I have a question about frenum snipping. I took my 1st snip today, not as bad as I thought: It didn't hurt and there was just a tiny drop of blood.

I would like to do this again, maybe next week. The question is where? Do I snip some other part of the frenum, or do I snip on the same spot but deeper?

Just wanted to add that I've been browsing through your forum and I really enjoy the posts and the people
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2005 :  12:46:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
same spot. you want to continue on the same spot so that each time you get a little deeper
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2005 :  08:32:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello,

I'm going to give you a second opinion on that one. My answer is different to Victors.

See Yogani's lesson on snipping:

http://www.aypsite.org/108.html

>> Tiny snips, each as small as a hair or
a very thin string. A sterilized, sharp cuticle snipper (like a small
wire cutter) can be used to do the job, bit by bit. When we lift our
tongue up, we can see right away where the point of greatest stress
on the frenum is.

The lesson is written to be applicable each time you snip, when the frenum is fully healed -- look for the point of greatest tautness and snip there. The point of greatest tautness could be the same as the last point you snipped, (and then you would be snipping as Victor said) but over time it could become different. (If you can't find it, choose what you think is among the tautest.)

When the frenum is fully healed after the week or two it takes, there will be no gap or hole left in the frenum, by the way. The frenum appears to just melt away as the snipping removes it over time!

You can find more information about more significant snipping from this other lesson. If you read this lesson you may also get a good picture of what is happening fiber-wise when you snip.

http://www.aypsite.org/223.html



quote:
Originally posted by veritasophia

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I have a question about frenum snipping. I took my 1st snip today, not as bad as I thought: It didn't hurt and there was just a tiny drop of blood.

I would like to do this again, maybe next week. The question is where? Do I snip some other part of the frenum, or do I snip on the same spot but deeper?

Just wanted to add that I've been browsing through your forum and I really enjoy the posts and the people


Edited by - david_obsidian on Aug 06 2005 08:34:55 AM
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veritasophia

USA
9 Posts

Posted - Aug 06 2005 :  11:47:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit veritasophia's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
David and Victor,

Thank you for your answers.

I hadn't seen the http://www.aypsite.org/223.html post, it clarifies a lot of things.

I've been trying to perform kechari for a while now, doing talavya kriya and milking. Progress has been extremely slow. I think this snipping is the answer.

Again thank you for your clarifications.
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rabar

USA
64 Posts

Posted - Aug 10 2005 :  12:21:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit rabar's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
There's quite an interesting brief video of someone who has been ablt to 'swallow' their tongue from the fourth grade and on. Take a look at:
http://gprime.net/video.php/tongueswallowing
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yogani

USA
5162 Posts

Posted - Aug 10 2005 :  2:52:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Rabar:

Thank you for that.

However, it is not swallowing the tongue. It is going up to stage 2 (and possibly 3). You can tell because the soft palate on top is being pushed forward from behind. If the tongue were going down the gullet, the soft palate would not be pushed forward because there would be nothing behind it. Of course, one can call kechari stages 2-4 "swallowing the tongue" and most would not know the difference. "Swallowing," most people can understand. But up into the center of the head via the nasal pharynx? Few can imagine that, even though it is much easier to do than swallowing of the tongue.

Perhaps this young man has a future in yoga. He has a gift. The question is, will he have the bhakti to go with it?

It is an excellent video of entering stage 2. Thank you!

The guru is in you.

PS -- See these cross sectional sketches for perspective http://www.aypsite.org/kechari_image1.html
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Manipura

USA
870 Posts

Posted - Aug 10 2005 :  4:43:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit Manipura's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks so much, Rabar! A picture really is worth a thousand words - the video answered a lot of questions for me about where the tongue goes in stage 2.


meg
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Aug 11 2005 :  05:32:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting. that kid is definitely demonstrating Kechari. It somehow makes the whole thing seem a little more silly to watch this way..........but why be too serious?
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GEM24

India
12 Posts

Posted - Sep 10 2005 :  12:49:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit GEM24's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,
It is said in the scriptures that Kechari Mudra gives one complete control over the prana within a persons body.
Has anyone experienced this control?

Do what u do, DO WELL
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Lavazza

69 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2006 :  03:03:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit Lavazza's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello everybody!

This is my first post on this forum, so, please, excuse me, if have not posted in the right thread, not read the manual, or whatever.

I went to a lecture series on the Hatha Yoga Pradipika and during the part concerning the kechari mudra I tried if I could get my tongue inte my nasal cavity, which I could. I asked the teacher about it and he just smiled.

I have been experimenting every once in a while to see what I can find with my tongue. I can do alternate breathing with my tongue blocking each nostril. I thought that the tongue should rest on the roof of the nasal cavity in kechari mudra, but when looking at pictures it seems that the tongue should stick right up at the opening of the cavity. What is right? And what about the secret spot? Where is it? I found some kind of spot on the floor of the nasal cavity, close to the nostrils, which I can touch with the bottom of the front of my tongue. Please, do not use anatomical terminology but explain in room terms.

I have only been practising yoga for a bit more than a year, maybe it is to early to practice kechari, but it feels tempting doing something people find difficult but that I could do spontaneously. I could do full lotus the first time I tried it as well. Some fellow practioners are convinced that I must have been practicing in an earlier life, but then I must been quite sloppy concerning many of the other asanas, pranayamas and bandhas, which I do not get at all.
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yogani

USA
5162 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2006 :  09:32:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Lavazza

Some fellow practitioners are convinced that I must have been practicing in an earlier life, but then I must been quite sloppy concerning many of the other asanas, pranayamas and bandhas, which I do not get at all.

Hi Lavazza, and welcome!

Yes, I would agree. Our tendencies in this life are coming from somewhere, and reincarnation is as good an explanation as any. But that is neither here nor there. The real question is, where do we go from here?

Success with mudras like kechari is a chicken and egg thing. They foster what we call in AYP, "ecstatic conductivity" in the nervous system. That is, a mudra like kechari is both cause and effect. When we are moving into effect mode (and further cause) we will know beyond any doubt that the "secret spot" in about half way up the edge of the back edge of the septum inside our nasal pharynx -- that is the divider between left and right nasal passages. We need go no further than that (stage 2 kechari) to achieve a good connection, and it is very easy to be there once we have gone above the soft palate. The rest after that (stages 3 & 4...) is icing on the cake. Check AYP Lesson #108 for details (diagrams included there).

But how to get that chicken and egg ecstatic conductivity going? It begins with deep meditation, and that is where I recommend you start, just as the AYP lessons suggest if you take them in order. Then there can be a logical buildup from there into spinal breathing pranayama, mudras, bandhas, samyama, tantra, etc. In this approach, it goes from inner silence to ecstatic conductivity and onward to the unity of outpouring divine love, which is working from the inside out instead of the other way around (beginning with physical techniques), which can be problematic.

As it says in the New Testament, "Seek first the kingdom of God and all will be added..." That is the underlying approach in AYP -- inner silence first by very easy means (deep meditation), and all the rest follows naturally.

As for doing kechari now, if you are a natural, it will not hurt. It will have more effect when you have some inner silence coming up and are cultivating ecstatic conductivity with spinal breathing and the additional means suggested in the lessons. It all works together like that.

The most important thing by far is to establish and stick with a stable daily practice. It does not take a lot of time -- just regularity of 20-30 minutes twice each day like clockwork, with a commitment to do it for as long as it takes. With that, we find steady progress over time, and will be in a position to take on more according to our inclinations. Along the way, we also find ourselves developing essential skills in "self-pacing" of practices as the energies begin to move within us, which is navigating the process of purification underway in our nervous system. And so it goes, ever-onward in expressing the infinite divine within us. You can read a lot about it in the AYP lessons, books and here in the forums.

Wishing you the best on your chosen path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!

The guru is in you.
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Lavazza

69 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2006 :  09:56:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit Lavazza's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks very much for the quick answer. I have been practicing zen meditation earlier and now I am practicing Ashtanga vinyasa, but only once or twice a week. After a pranayama retreat I got a "prescription" (after pulse reading etc. establishing me as a Vata-Pita) for Bhastrika and Sitali, but I am sad to say that I have not kept up my practice.

I still do not understand what the secret spot is. I guess I have to get a good dictionary to check up the anatomy. Should it be touched with the top or the bottom of the tip of the tongue? Is it on the the floor, roof, entry or exit of the nasal cavity?

I will not try a regular practice of kechari until I have a more regular practice in asanas, pranayama and meditation.
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yogani

USA
5162 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2006 :  11:17:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Lavazza

I still do not understand what the secret spot is. I guess I have to get a good dictionary to check up the anatomy. Should it be touched with the top or the bottom of the tip of the tongue? Is it on the the floor, roof, entry or exit of the nasal cavity?

Hi again Lavazza:

See kechari stage 2 in this diagram: http://www.aypsite.org/kechari_image1.html
The secret spot is right where the tip of tongue is there, on the edge of the nasal septum. Or maybe just a tad higher. There can be slight anatomical differences between people.

The secret spot can also be reached indirectly by placing the tip of the tongue up on the roof of the mouth where the hard and soft palates meet. That's right under the edge of the nasal septum, and is kechari stage 1 (also shown on the diagram).

As for what the secret spot is, it is an ecstatic connection point that promotes the rise of ecstatic conductivity in the entire nervous system. At a certain point on our spiritual journey, the spot becomes as ecstatically sensitive as the genitals, but with a different purpose -- the cultivation of divine ecstasy throughout the nervous system. (Indeed, our sexual function can be directly coaxed in this direction also, but that is a different subject - tantra!) The same is true of all the mudras and bandhas. They become ecstatically sensitive. Sambhavi is a very famous one. We often see the saints depicted with eyes raised. Why? Because it feels extremely good all over!

It's the same with kechari and the secret spot, and all the mudras and bandhas. When they become ecstatic, they combine and work together as one in many subtle ways. In AYP, that automatic coordination of ecstasy body-wide is called the "whole body mudra."

But again, it all rides on deep meditation and the cultivation inner silence, so we are wise to be starting at the beginning.

The guru is in you.
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2006 :  11:41:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Lavazza,
Welcome to the Kechari club! Sounds like you are doing great, just follow Yoganis advice and practice every day twice a day without fail and you will be doing great! You can explore your nasal anatomy with your tongue any time you like in order to become familiar but when you meditate just let the tongue rest on the nasal septum and practice.
Kechari is actually part of an integrated connection of shambhavi and mula bandha in siddhasana all done in a coordinated fashion to draw energy up the spine and direct it to the third eye point. By gazing at the thrid eye in shambhavi while doing kechari you create a powerful point of focus for the energies drawn up from the pelvis. This coordinates with mula bandha and siddhasana which creates a lift first from the pelvis and then going up into the spine. This is the energetic essence of the pranayama that we do. It all fits together like parts of a puzzle and each piece reinforces all the other pieces. The only way to really feel it is to practice daily and to remember the details until they become second nature.

Edited by - Victor on Jan 16 2006 11:48:22 AM
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Lavazza

69 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2006 :  4:02:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit Lavazza's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
It seems like we are thinking of the same spot, after all, Yogani. There is a spot on the floor of the nasal cavity where the soft and the hard palate meet that feels special when I touch it with the bottom of the tip of my tongue.

Victor, I cannot keep my tongue in the nasal cavity for long, just a few breaths. The air coming in makes the tongue tickly and I have yet to find a really relaxing place to rest it. Roof of the cavity seems best. Then the air goes to the bottom of the tongue which is less sensitive.

Thanks for the welcome.
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2006 :  11:40:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
just keep exploring, it will come
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Lavazza

69 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2006 :  3:37:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit Lavazza's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Now I have found something. A small passage that is over the holes of the nose. First I close the hole of the nose with the tongue, then I go higher and squeeze the tongue into a cavity that I did not know of before.
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