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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 10 2007 : 4:34:53 PM
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I attended a seminar with Manmoyanand (www.yogavillage.org). He is from what I understand one of those who see a point in preserving the 100% true yoga system, where all eight limbs of yoga must be followed in order, strictly according to the Sutras of Patanjali.
I confronted him with a question on the AYP method, and the teaching that "practices on any of the eight limbs will bring progress in the others". I referred to my own experiences and asked "If they have to be taken in order, then what is happening to me? Why is it working?"
He gave an answer I could not follow, and I wonder if it brings any associations to any of you with much more knowledge of yoga. He said something like "Well, then you are probably working in another system than yoga. You know there are six different xxxx whereof yoga is only one". And he started to explain one of the systems that had something to do with frequencies and resonance (???). Since I didn't quite follow him I have a hard time remembering what he said. Does it ring a bell in any of you? What are those six xxx? Are there other larger systems also? (Hard to google, since I don't know what to search on.)
And why might he be so eager to spread the word about the 100% pure yoga? I got the impression it was only the name of yoga he wanted to protect and spare for the real Patanjali stuff, and was a bit bantering of the "western yoga", which in his opinion was only fitness training. I got the thought - well, if AYP is working it doesn't matter what label we put on it. What is the point of preserving the name yoga of the old system?
I wonder, though, if he means that if you follow the old-fashioned way of taking them in order, you will accomplish even deeper enlightenment than any of the self-realized persons active today have reached since they only might do some sort of half-measure? Could that be possible?
Just imagining what he might mean: if you take it in order - after having done the asanas you will according to the sutras have reached beyond dualism and be beyond the ego. THEN it's time to start breathing!!!!! And then what happens when you finally are ready for meditation from who knows what place???? 
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2007 : 5:08:51 PM
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quote:
Just imagining what he might mean: if you take it in order - after having done the asanas you will according to the sutras have reached beyond dualism and be beyond the ego. THEN it's time to start breathing!!!!! And then what happens when you finally are ready for meditation from who knows what place????
Ha ha I love it..who knows? maybe he does!!! 
I have no idea what the six xxx are probably something he has devised for his own system, some people seem to delight in making things complicated.
Stay with AYP EMC its sooo easy and uncomplicated |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2007 : 5:11:45 PM
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Hi,
Well basically he is talking rubbish as far as I can see.The system I follow involves spinal breathing,japa, and mantra meditation. No postures,mudras or bandhas. The name of this non yoga is called Kundalini Maha Yoga, the yoga of the siddhas of India.
L&L
Dave |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2007 : 7:13:56 PM
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Well basically he is talking rubbish as far as I can see.
I agree, and it's nice I don't have to always be the only one who is impious enough to call a spade.
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2007 : 7:49:40 PM
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Hi EMC:
Maybe he was talking about the "six systems of Indian philosophy," covered nicely here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_philosophy (the six orthodox schools)
Yoga is one of those systems. Within yoga there are innumerable systems of practice, as many as there are teachers/traditions, each utilizing the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali in their own way.
All systems of yoga practice are interpretations and applications of yoga philosphy. No one has a corner on the market. The AYP approach is summarized here. Taking the eight limbs of yoga strictly in order is a very slow way to go. To each their own. Just don't force it on the rest of us.
Progress with the yamas and niyamas (yogic conduct) will be limited without samadhi (inner silence) in the picture. And it is not possible to cultivate samadhi without meditation. It is very simple really. It is results we want, not the endless delay that so often accompanies orthodoxy.
The guru is in you.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2007 : 11:35:34 PM
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If you look at the website, it looks like he may be talking about doing the eight branches in order each day.
I would hesitate to follow anyone who says they have the "one true yoga system".
That's like someone claiming their language is the true one.
I can see why a lot of people would like his village though. Looks like nature-simplicity-learn from a "master", get a massage, eat ayurvedic food, sit around a bonfire, sleep in a cabin. It's a good escape from the real world.
I have a feeling you could spend a lot of money, have a good time, and find nothing different a few weeks later. Like a motivational speaker.
There's no such thing as a deeper enlightenment that can't be reached by other methods, or one enlightenment that's better than another.
Enlightenment is not a static state; it's a pathway, and some saints have gone farther with devotion alone than other people have following systems with all the bells and whistles.
It's what we do on the inside that makes the most difference, and consistent practice over a long time, not so much a magic retreat.
Looks like a fun thing to do though, if you have lots of money. |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 08:39:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
If you look at the website, it looks like he may be talking about doing the eight branches in order each day.
Hi Ether:
If that is the case, it would be more reasonable.
It should also be noted that there are millions of people around the world doing asanas (yoga postures) these days, for a variety of reasons. Every person doing asanas has the option to expand their practice and experience to pranayama, meditation, abiding inner silence (samadhi) and ecstatic bliss. It can happen naturally through the connectedness of yoga existing in all of us. That is where the operative principles of yoga live as an integrated whole -- in us. The yoga sutras only record what we are already inside.
Many who are utilizing AYP have come to sitting practices from asanas. There is no issue here with anyone undertaking the limbs of yoga in any order that leads them home to the joy of unity in everyday living. Whatever works!
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 4:17:51 PM
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quote:
Nyaya, the school of logic
Vaisheshika, the atomist school
Samkhya, the enumeration school
Yoga, the school of Patanjali (which assumes the metaphysics of Samkhya)
Purva Mimamsa (or simply Mimamsa), the tradition of Vedic exegesis, with emphasis on Vedic ritual, and
Vedanta (also called Uttara Mimamsa), the Upanishadic tradition, with emphasis on Vedic philosophy.
Thank you, Yogani for the link. It certainly must be those six he meant. =)
quote:
If you look at the website, it looks like he may be talking about doing the eight branches in order each day.
Hm... I don't think so. He told us that he had been given a task by his master - to go out and teach yoga, and if he could find one single person who were willing to learn yoga the proper way, he could go on to his next step and stop teaching. That was some 8-10 years ago and he hasn't found anyone yet ready to go the whole way! So he is stuck in teaching, and he DOES NOT LIKE IT, he said!  That made me bewildered (following an outer guru more than an inner, and be stuck in likes-dislikes???). He is according to sources able to teleport himself etc. Might he be a siddhi with super powers, but still with a strong (and perhaps bitter) ego? He is only teaching "tourist yoga" for the people attending the village. The real stuff is saved for the few serious devotees he encounters.
I am glad to see your responses, although I do not want to disbelieve him in any way. I still hold all alternatives open in my interpretation of what he's doing/teaching. However, he didn't make me cry. And that is the best sign I have so far. When I hear truth, I cry... Of course I'll stick to AYP. For one and only reason: IT WORKS! 
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Edited by - emc on Jun 11 2007 4:26:28 PM |
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lorf
48 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 5:55:38 PM
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Instead of speculating maybe it is a better idea to read his book "SIVANANDA BURIED YOGA" (by Yogi Manmoyanand). It can be ordered from Yogamatters in London.
I his teachings the Bangali Baba version of the Yogasutra of Patanjali is used. This translation is not distorting the original essence from Patanjali as much as many other versions and can be ordered from Indiaclub.
And he as got a point regarding the word "yoga" which almost like saying "new age" today. No one in the west really knows what yoga is about since so many call their own specific practice "yoga". Instead of using words like "talking rubbish" I think we should honor the ones willing to preserve a tradition in its original form.
/lorf |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 6:16:18 PM
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Hi Lorf,
When I said I believed he was talking rubbish I wasn't talking about the westerners who are 'simply doing exercises'.I was talking about the statement that if you didn't follow his method or order of things then it was not yoga.
L&L
Dave |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 7:29:18 PM
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Schedule at the village:
6:00AM Pranayama, purification and preparation
6:30 Asanas, Bandhas and mudras
8:30 Ayurvedic body toning, relaxation
11:00 Discourses on yoga Sutras and other yogic scriptures
2:30PM individual practices of Trataka, chakra-dharana and contemplation
6:00PM pranayama, meditation, contemplation at seashore
7:30 bonfire and spiritual discussion |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2007 : 9:11:50 PM
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| Sounds rather nice. |
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lorf
48 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2007 : 02:01:19 AM
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Dave,
I am aware that this is what you meant and I will explain further what I mean to say.
Manmoyanand spent 7 years at 5000 meters altitude in the Himalayas. Dressed in a cloth, months without food, months by himself in a cave. He belongs to a lineage where the student confirms a completed step of practice by showing the teacher that he can perform the siddhi connected to that particular step. The process of unfoldment described in this lineage has striking similarities with the Toltec tradition.
Now, if you could sit with Manmoyanand and perform the same siddhis, share his understanding of the universe, the same level of body control, share the same places in samadhi etc.... (Or, using Toltec terminology it would be to be able to move your assemblage point to exactly the same places as he can.)
If you come to share the same place with some AYP practices and he spent 7 years with a strict 24/7 practice then you could tell him he is talking rubbish.
If not, all we can say is that we respect the traditional path and tell that personally we prefer to choose to try an easier way adapted for westerners.
But rubbish? No, we can never know or make statements about the reality another being percieves without sharing it with them.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2007 : 08:14:38 AM
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Hi Lorf,
I don't practice AYP methods but I do follow a traditional way of Kundalini Maha Yoga. My sadguru is a siddha and has followed intense practices for over 30 yrs, his guru before him started aged around 8 yrs old and continued until his death at age 117yrs old.Few would follow this path as it is a great commitment and may not suit many in the west.I currently practice between 2-3 hrs daily meditation which is still not much but can be difficult to fit in. When I return to India in January 08 I expect we will be in intense anhustan for at least 10 days.
L&L
Dave |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2007 : 1:30:30 PM
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Hi lorf, thank you for chiming in on the subject.
Do you have any idea of what he means one should do then, as a western practitioner doing some asanas and meditation, before you have gotten your life straight and are 100% pure in your behaviour doing yama and niyama without any remarks?
1. Yama – It means "restraint," and includes ahimsa (non-violence),
satya (truthfulness), asteya (non-stealing), brahmacharya
(preservation of sexual energy and cultivation of it), and aparigraha(non-covetousness).
2. Niyama – It means "observance," and includes saucha (purity and
cleanliness), samtosa (contentment), tapas (heat/focus/austerity),
svadhyaya (study of scriptures and self), and isvara pranidhana
(surrender to the divine).
Should you stop doing asanas, pranayama and meditation because it is of no use until you have all this stuff integrated and living accordingly? Does he really mean it is of no use, or does he favour a blend of practices anyway? If so, in what way does he suggest to improve your ethical conduct while you are doing your "fitness yoga"?
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2007 : 02:39:10 AM
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Lorf wrote, “ I(n) his teachings the Bangali Baba version of the Yogasutra of Patanjali is used.
Lorf, do you know, Is this the same Bengali Baba who was the guru of Swami Rama, founder of the Himalayan Institute in Pennsylvania?
Lorf wrote, "This translation is not distorting the original essence from Patanjali as much as many other versions and can be ordered from Indiaclub."
Hard to prove.
Etherfish wrote: “It's what we do on the inside that makes the most difference, and consistent practice over a long time, not so much a magic retreat.”
This thread reminded me of this passage in a book on Raja Yoga:
“The consciousness is constantly expanding, even during our daily living. Raja Yoga accelerates this expansion. Obviously a person who withdraws from the noise of the world and devotes his whole life to Raja Yoga has a better chance of reaching the goal faster than one who practices the exercises in the midst of a feverishly pulsating city life. On the other hand, our progress is governed by the laws of the mind. Persons living in a city can also reach the goal if their desire for freedom and happiness is great enough. It would be useless to retire to the lonely caves of the Himalayas in order to practice there, if we were to take along our selfishness and our longing for the joys of the material world. This would be a much greater obstacle to progress than difficult external conditions. Those who are no longer bound to any outside things can reach the state of blessed illumination in the midst of a busy city, in a rented flat, amongst modern furnishings, to the noise of the neighbors, to the tune of the family radio—just as if they were alone in the depths of the forest. This point must be emphasized because many persons believe that city life is an obstacle. Those who believe this are hindered by their belief, not by city life itself.
We repeat, the obstacles to our progress are always within us, not without.”
Quote from book, Raja Yoga, by Selvarajan Yesudian and Elisabeth Haich.
It appears that Bhakti is the great equalizer in the opinion of these authors as well as you know who.
It sort of applies to the conversation in the thread.
Lorf wrote, “No one in the west really knows what yoga is about since so many call their own specific practice ‘yoga’.”
“Every occupation that involves concentration is a path of Yoga.”
“The path of yoga is traveled by everyone whose activity involves concentration because concentration expands the consciousness.”
Same book, same authors.
Emc wrote,”I got the impression it was only the name of yoga he wanted to protect and spare for the real Patanjali stuff, and was a bit bantering of the "western yoga", which in his opinion was only fitness training. I got the thought - well, if AYP is working it doesn't matter what label we put on it.”
Was he referring to the west’s obsession with asana and not to AYP?
Emc wrote: “He is only teaching "tourist yoga" for the people attending the village. The real stuff is saved for the few serious devotees he encounters.
Looks to me like the yoga on the website in emc’s first post is the tourist yoga for mild aspirants like me from the west.
There are pictures of caucasians doing asanas on the website and it would be hard to believe that they have perfected yama and niyama.
emc wrote, “So he is stuck in teaching, and he DOES NOT LIKE IT, he said!"
From “The Teacher” page at Yogavillage.org:
“Yogi Manmoyanand has unlimited patience in his teachings.”
“His teachings are simple and precise in nature, and he particularly enjoys dealing with incessantly questioning minds.”
Maybe he was having a bad day. He looks like a nice man and teacher. Opinionated perhaps.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2007 : 03:37:39 AM
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Was he referring to the west’s obsession with asana and not to AYP?
Yes, he was talking about west's asana obsession. He did not know of AYP and I only gave a short explanation about the non-orthodox order of practices in AYP, since the correct order was his core point in the seminar, and that was what I was wondering about. Possibly he mistook me for being a westerner without any knowledge at all and did not understand the focus of my question.
I might have misinterpreted him totally, he might have had a bad day, but it sounded like a "standard presentation" that he made of himself - to explain the task from the master and his inability to find such a student and his dislike with the situation, just waiting to be able to move on to the next step. He was finished with asanas some 10 years ago or so. Don't know at wich of the eight limbs he was at right now.
He was definitely a nice man. =) Although in my opinion, not holding very respectful attitudes toward westerners and their attempts to proceed on the spiritual path. But now, that's only the opinion of my mind, filtered through my biases.
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emmaterracini
Australia
1 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2009 : 04:13:54 AM
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yogi Manmoyanand is the real deal and yes he is uncomprimising in his teaching and so he should be.
Wouldn't it piss you off if you had been through all the tapas that comes with the authentic kriyas; which, included him living in solitude in a cave in the himalayas, begging as an asthetic and then now his greatest challenge - preserving the teaching and delivering it appropriately to greater society | when you see 'teachers' being 'qualified' to teach the science of yoga in a one months 'teacher training'?! Knowing that the most wonderful beautiful spiritual system has been corrupted into one huge money making ****; all this new age bullsh*t that is bandied around under the guise of 'yoga' - it pisses me off and I'm light years away from Manmoyanand's level of development.
A note on New Age - the only teacher I have encountered that is similar in power and authenticity is Stuart Wilde [www.stuartwilde.com] - but Stuart is into Aya ceremonies which I have never resonated with.
anyhoo - When I first met Manmoyanand - I challenged him about his disdain of teaching - I could not believe that he hated teaching so much...too me that seemed 'unspiritual' - shouldn't he be 'overflowing with nectar or something'?!
BUT having been lucky even to recieve some of the teaching I have so much compassion for his task as; once you discover the true depth of what yoga is you begin to comprehend what a challenge it must be. whether we want to admit it or not - most of us live a very unpure life and he breaks you down so you start to operate from your authentic self - which, is not necessary what you may have pre-conceived it to be.
the spiritual training [the process of yoga] he delivers is very very challenging - he will force you to confront all of your darkness, all of your weaknesses so you can transcend them and progress on your path - its a pretty painful experience but it is so so SO beautiful at the same time. beyond words. he can be so ruthless with you and in the next encounter he'll appear as the most compassionate and loving being, like light and love of the universe itself [now, that might sound like a complete hoax but you have to experience it to believe it I guess :)]
he is the most incredible amazing teacher
so - if any of you get the chance to become a student of his then ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT QUESTION DO IT!!! roll up your sleaves and go for it!!! or.. don't - you know - it's all good to do 'yoga' for fitness - but in truth, to be correct yoga is yoga; that is - its a precise and scientific system of spiritual development that is definitely not for the faint hearted - its not for everyone I guess.
Lorf - you are on the money re: toltec tradition and the similarities
the blue pill or the red pill? hee hee...
- Namaste,
Emma
ps - the book is Sivananda Buried Yoga
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lucilledweck
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2009 : 2:15:05 PM
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It does seem to me to make sense.
We all revere Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. I cant think of anyone serious about yoga who wouldn't have studied it. It is often referred to as The foundational text for Yoga.
So it clearly says that yoga is done in stages, and apon completion of one stage you move to the next.
We (the yoga community) seem to have not much regard for that aspect. We may be acheiving great things without working through systematically as suggested by Patanjali but how do we know we aren't missing the full picture which could only be acheived by working systematically???
We don't really.
I must say that Yogi Manmoyanand has the most amazing mind! The level of clarity and understanding of Patanjali that he displays is way beyond anything else I have ever come across. |
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Yoga is one of six... what?
