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 Drugs for expanding consciousness and reaching god
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Alvin Chan

Hong Kong
407 Posts

Posted - Jan 18 2007 :  12:56:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
A possible drug for expanding consciousness(temporarily??):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science...hemind.shtml

While it may be hurting the brain if used in the long run, the descriptions from those who took it are rather different from most pleasure-only, dopamine stimulating drugs. This leads to a wonder of whether this drug actually helps people to expand their consciousness temporarily, and whether it is harmful in the long run.

Edited by - Alvin Chan on Jan 18 2007 03:56:29 AM

gray

United Kingdom
28 Posts

Posted - Jan 18 2007 :  08:38:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit gray's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I suspect the content of this web page may have changed since you linked it? I can't see anything about a drug here.
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Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Jan 18 2007 :  09:13:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Alvin,
Long time!
i haven't looked at the link yet, but would caution anyone against drugs for such purposes. I experimented with psychedelic drugs back when they were popular, and have come to some conclusions since then:
Yes, sometimes you do catch a glimpse of an aspect of God from some drugs.
I wouldn't recommend this route to anyone in this forum. Why?
The drugs gived you a twisted view of God, and for me it took 30 years to straighten it out. What is twisted about it? The vision of what God is, and how to get there. What drugs are good for, like Castaneda said, is to "shock" someone out of their everyday mindset. So drugs could do some good in my opinion, for someone who thinks religion, God, yoga are all worthless. So anyone on this forum would not belong to that category. It is a lot easier to reach God without the drugs if you have the desire, with consistent practice.
Drugs give you the illusion that God is "right over there, around the corner." Then when they wear off you keep looking around that corner and can't find him. So a new illusion is mixed in, just as real as the illusions we already have.

The other problem with drugs is it is uncontrollable. You can't control which aspect of God you will glimpse; whether it is God or some demon, how long it will last, how you will react, and how long it will take to repair the damage.
Some people never recover. Usually they return to a state where they can cope with reality, but some can't really fit in with society anymore, and become homeless or crazy, and definitely without God.
It's really the long way around a problem.
If we just keep in mind that all of the suffering, all of the problems in our mind ("permutations" as Patanjali would say), is due to separation from God,
and keep God in our thoughts, it's MUCH easier.
But most people are like the old man who has his glasses on top of his head, and is searching the house, thinking "If only I had my glasses, I could SEE to look for them."
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Alvin Chan

Hong Kong
407 Posts

Posted - Jan 18 2007 :  10:33:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
I suspect the content of this web page may have changed since you linked it? I can't see anything about a drug here.


It will be changed even if it's not right now. The main drug discussed in the programme was LSD :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD

Ether, sorry that I can't reply you in detail right now. I'll, soon. I am still going through a hard time in my practice. I basically dropped most of my practices for a few weeks, only pick it up again today with some difficulty. Now I'm trying to join the forum again, in order to fuel my bhakti again---but step by step so that I can bear it!

I can only say that, according to the programme, the drug seems to provide some enlightenment-like experiences and give a shift in consciousness (not unlike those as claimed by yogi). The influence is sometimes long-term and positive, in the sense of being spiritual, non-attachment, etc.

A twisted vision of god? May be. But who among us have a complete and fully-straight vision of god?

By the way, I'm not saying this drug is helpful for spiritual growth. But certainly it is potentially so.

Edited by - Alvin Chan on Jan 18 2007 10:43:43 AM
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Jan 18 2007 :  10:45:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have much hope for LSD for really expanding someone's consciousness, but it has helped a small number of people get on a spiritual path.

In the much longer run though, when humanity knows much more about the brain, I certainly think it is possible that we will find drugs that can truly aid the enlightenment process. But whether or not that time comes eventually, it does not seem to be here now.
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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2007 :  05:16:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan

A possible drug for expanding consciousness(temporarily??):
This leads to a wonder of whether this drug actually helps people to expand their consciousness temporarily, and whether it is harmful in the long run.




Hi Alvin (& All),

Good to hear from you, Alvin - I hope things are improving for you, and that the Forum will once again be a resource for you to get everything more in line with what you'd like to experience.



And "PS" in advance to all: yes, I am trying to watch post length -- but the length and information in this post seemed pertinent. However, I certainly invite feedback, as always (on any aspect of the post, including length). I hope it's helpful.



This may be surprising to some - but the topic of this post - "Drugs for expanding consciousness and reaching god" is an area of study and experience, both in scientific and spiritual realms, which has far more credibility than one might initially think - and with some interesting twists and conclusions, which I will summarize with the most succinct statement I believe I have ever made:



AYP beats LSD.



There's a whole class of substances (including LSD) known as psychedelics or psychotropics -- and it is of note that a new term has come into vogue recently: Entheogens (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen ) - meaning: "God Within" - as in: God is within these substances, once they're ingested, and their powers "unlocked".

(And Please Note: I neither use nor recommend entheogenic substances personally - nor do I warn against their use. I have close friends who find significant value in them, as an important spiritual tool; I personally experience yoga practices as superior - and yes, I speak from experience. )

And I'm in relatively good company: one of the better known spiritual teachers who has followed a similar "entheogenic substances --> entheogenic yoga practices" trajectory is Ram Dass. As Dr. Richard Alpert, he (along with Dr. Timothy Leary), pioneered research, including extensive "field research", of psychedelic drugs, and their effects on consciousness - which earned them the distinction of being the only professors fired from Harvard University during the 20th century.

Richard Alpert then went to India, met his guru (Sri Neem Karoli Baba), and learned that the states he attained temporarily with psychedelics (or entheogens, if you prefer) - are available permanently, through yoga (primarily pranayama and meditation - the cornerstones of AYP).

Dr. Stanislav Grof was one of the pioneers of LSD research, connected with both terminally ill patients, and substance addicts (including alcoholics). He just published a new book about some of this history and research (specifically connected with terminal cancer patients), titled "The Ultimate Journey: Death and the Mystery of Consciousness" - http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Jour...0966001990/2

His primary method for obtaining transcendent states currently, however, is a system of specialized breathing he developed, known as Holotropic Breathwork - http://www.holotropic.com/

These are just two examples of the trend toward realization that what is available chemically via entheogens, is available biologically / internally via yoga practices (whatever they may be called, specifically).

The essence of the whole situation (in my opinion) is:

The toughest thing for most of us to transcend, even very temporarily, is our ego - our sense of self. It usually takes at least a few years' worth of yoga practice and/or deep spiritual inquiry, usually fueled by a fairly high degree of genuine bhakti / devotion / earnest, authentic intent - to have such an experience without chemicals.

Ultimately, yoga not only provides a more natural alternative to ingesting powerful chemicals - but yoga provides results that are better on every level - they're more powerful, they feel better, they provide more profound insight, and the effects can be self-regulated much more easily (anyone who has been "done" with a trip several hours before the acid is "done" knows what I mean ... ).

Within a relatively short period of time, using AYP practices, I can experience states that are more powerful and feel better - and provide more profound insight - and far healthier neurobiological evolutionary benefit - than any and all drugs, and any and all sensual experiences I have ever had -- and I mean this very, very literally (yoga isn't just better than drugs because it's healthier ---- yoga is better than drugs. Yes, really.)

However, on the other hand - someone with a terminal illness, a life-destroying addiction, or another type of deep, clinical psychological malady (i.e. PTSD - Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) - may well benefit from the only way known to science to induce a break in the seemingly unbreakable identification with the physical body-mind as the "self".

In Grof's book (link above), there are several verbatim testimonials from cancer patients, who reported that their LSD experiences (therapeutically managed and monitored by medical professionals) helped them to realize the reality that we are not our bodies - and do not die when our bodies die, that linear time is not as it appears (that each moment, situation, person, etc. is precious and priceless beyond imagining) - and most importantly of all - that separation is an illusion.

This "sneak preview" into the reality of unity enabled these patients to live out their last few weeks or months at peace, and with a much higher quality of life, including with the people they loved most dearly.

Likewise, this same kind of "sneak preview" has helped people with severe addictions (which may seem kind of counter-intuitive, but it's actually not - entheogens are not addictive - and "breaking" the illusion of ego-self cuts to the very heart of the illusion which drives addiction: the false appearance that we are forever separate and alone).

Most sources who are considered authoritative enough to comment - including 12 Step Programs and Carl Jung, agree that a profound spiritual awakening is needed, to enable true and permanent recovery from addiction.

Entheogenic treatment, from both a spiritual and psychological standpoint, shows great promise, in terms of jump-starting an individual's spiritual awakening, by breaking the illusion of ego-self - even for a few hours.

http://www.ibogaine.org/

http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/08/09/Psychedelics/

There are some very exciting advances in the realm of neuroscience - both in the potential therapeutic efficacy of entheogens - and in the use of yogic techniques to facilitate the same types of therapeutic benefits.

Last week, I attended a lecture given by Martin Wuttke (a direct disciple of well-known Kriya Yoga guru, Roy Eugene Davis) who is pioneering specialized EEG Biofeedback Therapy (the EEG just measures the given brain state, to show how well state-altering techniques, such as Kriya Yoga - or AYP Spinal Breathing - or other Pranayam, are working). The nature of the specialized EEG Biofeedback Therapy, is that it monitors the results of meditation and Kriya Yoga-like techniques.

Martin Wuttke has had some amazing success with this, and is doing very well with it all over the world - including The Netherlands, and the Ukraine. One of his most amazing success stories is that of his own wife (she was a patient first - a non-ambulatory, oxygen-deprived, terminally ill patient (according to her diagnosis at the time) -- who Kriya'd her way to hiking around the Tibetan Himalayas, and is now Martin's partner in business and in life.)

This is what yoga is capable of:

http://www.winfd.com/per.htm

(And these results are from a system that many of us have experienced as similar to, but if anything, not quite as robust as AYP. I don't know about any of you, but I'm kinda feeling grateful all over again. Thanks, Yogani! )

Martin's presentation last week was by far the most comprehensive and detailed presentation I have yet seen on yoga and neuroscience - and causes me to conclude that it may not be too long before even "emergency" types of entheogenic drug therapy may not be needed -- because we will have refined completely natural techniques to attain superior results.

http://www.winfd.com/

The key to understanding how and why all this information correlates the way it does, is: it all boils down to adjustments in brain chemistry. The adjustments can be made by drugs, or by yoga practices - but the same exact things happen (dopamine and serotonin levels increase, GABA balances, etc.)

Again - hope this is helpful.

Peace & Namaste,

Kirtanman





Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 22 2007 05:35:50 AM
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Shanti

USA
4854 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2007 :  08:20:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Shanti's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kirtanman,
Thanks for this (long... but) informative post.
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Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2007 :  09:40:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I got almost halfway through kirtanman's post! You should write a book Kirtanman. Oh, you already have.

The problem with psychotropic drugs is, the way they manifest is unpredictable. They do tend to break our connection with the seemingly solid illusion we are used to. But we are connected with that illusion in a thousand ways, and you never know which connections will be broken.
The drugs don't just "show you God." God isn't what we think he is, and certainly not what can be described in words, so you probably wouldn't know God if you saw him. Or conversely, you would think you saw God when you are only seeing a small part of him.

What the drugs do is shake you up and disorient you, so you look at things differently. Not very many people are really going to be advanced spiritually by such treatment, but some can be.
This type of rare spiritual advancement is valuable to START someone on a spiritual path who was not on it before. It doesn't send you up the path very far. That's up to you.
You can easily get just as far on the spiritual path with a little bhakti and some consistent meditation.
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Manipura

USA
870 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2007 :  10:14:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit Manipura's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I read every other sentence in Kirtanman's post and think I got the gist of it. My past experience with entheogens hasn't been the "sneak peek at God" that most people talk about. It was instead a highly concentrated cleansing agent for the chakras. A spiritual roto-rooter, as it were. Meditation does the same thing. But for those of us who have extra-heavy-duty karmic cleansing to do in this lifetime, entheogens, taken exclusively with spiritual intentions, can be an amazing tool. I've never taken LSD, btw. I'm sure it's been said elsewhere, but I'll say it again: entheogens are no substitute for long-term, daily meditation.
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weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2007 :  11:04:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Kirtanman for sharing this information!

(I see several here indicating "long post". I personally think that if information is relevant and can be of interest, then the length itself is of no issue. Better to include important facts than to exclude them. )
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Manipura

USA
870 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2007 :  11:33:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit Manipura's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by weaver

Thank you Kirtanman for sharing this information!

(I see several here indicating "long post". I personally think that if information is relevant and can be of interest, then the length itself is of no issue. Better to include important facts than to exclude them. )

Did my post imply that Kirtanman's long posts were a bad thing? Hmmm..yeah, I guess it did. My mistake, and sorry, K'man! Your posts are indeed informative as well as entertaining, but I rarely finish reading anyone's long posts. Nothing personal.
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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2007 :  05:08:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by meg

quote:
Originally posted by weaver

Thank you Kirtanman for sharing this information!

(I see several here indicating "long post". I personally think that if information is relevant and can be of interest, then the length itself is of no issue. Better to include important facts than to exclude them. )

Did my post imply that Kirtanman's long posts were a bad thing? Hmmm..yeah, I guess it did. My mistake, and sorry, K'man! Your posts are indeed informative as well as entertaining, but I rarely finish reading anyone's long posts. Nothing personal.



Hi All,

Thanks for the post-length feedback --- though I certainly don't mean for that to detract from the core subject of the thread (which seems to round out at roughly: AYP - 7, Entheogens 0.3 (or so)).

Personally, it seems to me that the "rambling, riffing and possibly amusing side-line stories" are what make my (pre-repentance ... ) posts wayyyy overly long - so I tried to eliminate those things from my post above.

I could have certainly edited for length somewhat - but I think the main things that added length to my post above were the references to the different people, books, sites, etc. etc. -- all of which I included on purpose, in case anyone wanted to check them out, per their connection with the topic Alvin raised, by starting this thread.

I'm genuinely working on balance, "post-length-wise" and do appreciate the input, sincerely.



The consensus seems to be (if I'm understanding correctly) divided between:

1. The folks who have zero "long-post" tolerance, and won't read anything more than a "couple-three" short paragraphs, max - no matter what the content.

2. Those who don't mind (and can actually enjoy) longer posts, provided the content is good.

Ultimately (despite any appearances to the contrary ... ), I don't think any of us are here to "hear ourselves type" (no, not even me ...) - and are genuinely here to communicate and converse, in ways that help our individual and collective sadhana -- and any commentary which helps any of us "get there", is a good thing.



Thanks Again - Peace & Namaste,

Kirtanman
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Manipura

USA
870 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2007 :  07:25:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Manipura's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey K'man -I do enjoy your posts and sometimes finish them. :) Thanks for being so good natured about this.

Back to the subject. I disagree with this sentence (which proves that I did make it to the end of your post):

"You can easily get just as far on the spiritual path with a little bhakti and some consistent meditation."

I don't think I'd have made it as far. As indicated above, entheogens (very occasional use) have proven to be invaluable in clearing the inner path for me. It's hard to say of course, but I don't believe that I'd be where I am today without having used them in the past. Not that I've summited the mount, but I'm quite happy with my progress, and attribute some of that to the powerful cleansing that was done with the use of entheogens for specifically intentional cleansing. (I know I"m being very repetitive but I'm trying to drive home the point that this was not recreational use.) (In fact it was no fun at all.) I should mention that other intentional, non-drug work was done as well, such as the cranio-sacral work that's been written about elsewhere, acupuncture at specific chakras, etc. 'Like that', as you like to say. :)

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Shanti

USA
4854 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2007 :  07:47:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit Shanti's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kirtanman,
I was only kidding about the "long post".. had to since you made the PS..
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And "PS" in advance to all: yes, I am trying to watch post length -- but the length and information in this post seemed pertinent. However, I certainly invite feedback, as always (on any aspect of the post, including length). I hope it's helpful.


But really, your post was excellent.. very informative and I enjoyed it.
quote:
I'm genuinely working on balance, "post-length-wise" and do appreciate the input, sincerely.


You did a great job sticking to the point.
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blackmuladar

USA
17 Posts

Posted - Mar 21 2007 :  5:44:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit blackmuladar's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
i used psychedelics every other day for 6 months mainly LSD. like anything else you ingest,you eat it and it works on you in ways that you may or may not agree. there was always a sense of lack of control,mayB enviornment or inner-enviornment needed some tuning first. did it bring me closer to god? no! it just took me for an interesting walk and said see those houses over there,mayB your god lives there? then i said lets check it out my friend. psychedelic energy being said i have limits but i think the one you seek is limitless but i'm not sure.

i would just like to say that chemical aid does not burn up karma,does not bring about calm concentration,does not grant boons,does not secure any heavenly retirement realms,does not teach virtues,does not give mind control,does not help overcome the senses,etc. but they do smack you in the head and say wake up i'm taking you out/in on the road whether your ready or not!
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Doc

USA
394 Posts

Posted - Mar 21 2007 :  6:37:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Doc's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
It is a lot easier to reach God without the drugs if you have the desire, with consistent practice. Drugs give you the illusion that God is "right over there, around the corner." Then when they wear off you keep looking around that corner and can't find him. So a new illusion is mixed in, just as real as the illusions we already have.

If we just keep in mind that all of the suffering, all of the problems in our mind ("permutations" as Patanjali would say), is due to separation from God, and keep God in our thoughts, it's MUCH easier.



Hello EF:

These excellent points are great reminders for eveyone who thinks that there are 'short-cuts' to Samadhi. As I have said before, except no substitutes...there simply is no good alternative to a well directed, consistent Sadhana. Period!

And in any event, God is NEVER "right over there, around the corner", but always RIGHT HERE WITHIN US! Additionally, most of these drugs are hallucinogenic chemical substances which distort perceptions of sight, sound, and feeling on every level. They might just as well be labeled 'illusionogenic', IMO.

In the long run, it is the permanent modification of Consciousness that matters most...i.e. the Illuminated Perceptions of Holy Inner Vision, Inner Divine Revelation, and Inner Feelings of Sacred Devotion which constitute a genuine Self-Realization, not the temporarily altered physical and mental perceptions of outer sights, sounds, and feelings generated by the actions of any drug.

http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside...b-grass2.jpg

Hari OM!

Doc

Edited by - Doc on Mar 21 2007 6:46:21 PM
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VIL

USA
586 Posts

Posted - Mar 21 2007 :  9:37:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Beautiful pic, Doc:



VIL
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Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Mar 22 2007 :  07:45:56 AM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree. I think it IS possible for drugs to cause a sort of religious experience occasionally. One in which you would realize god is within you.
But when the drug wears off, you are thrown back into the same illusions that you had before, and that confuses you because you are thinking "God was right here. . .where is he?" So that may have some shock value, but you didn't really make any progress.
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Manipura

USA
870 Posts

Posted - Mar 22 2007 :  08:42:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit Manipura's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Back in the day, my teacher always reminded us that the actual 'trip' was merely an opening; a portal if you will, through which we entered and gathered information. It was what we brought back from the journey that was the material with which we then worked. This was the real work - processing the material over many weeks and months - and it was this process that ensured that the journey was not just a temporary distraction. "Distorted perceptions of sight, sound, and feeling" are that which we find when we journey within under ANY circumstances, hallucinogenic or not; indeed, they're discussed here on AYP daily. I'm not necessarily recommending entheogens or shamanic work to anyone, in fact, by all means, don't do it. It's extremely difficult internal work. But for some people, it turns out to be the very opening they need to deepen their spiritual work.

Edited by - Manipura on Mar 22 2007 09:35:39 AM
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Nirodha

New Zealand
86 Posts

Posted - Apr 03 2007 :  07:55:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit Nirodha's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,

I tend to agree with meg, and her teacher; the trips are merely an opening, sometimes a very powerful one, but, just an opening, none the less. However, I've done my share of entheogens, back in the day, and don't regret the experiences at all. The majority of them were very pleasant. However, some of them were not. But, even those were useful.

For some people, these experiences can actually open them up and remove blockages, permanently. However, it is potentially dangerous since these drugs are usually obtained illegally, and, therefore, will vary in purity and quality.

May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha

Edited by - Nirodha on Apr 03 2007 08:00:05 AM
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Kyman

530 Posts

Posted - Apr 06 2007 :  01:26:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit Kyman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Everything exists for a reason
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Balance

USA
967 Posts

Posted - Apr 06 2007 :  02:44:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit Balance's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Kyman

Everything exists for a reason




That seems existentially reasonable

Edited by - Balance on Apr 06 2007 06:17:19 AM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jul 04 2008 :  11:37:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Everyone, I am new to this forum and this is my first post...I hope you do not take offence to me just "jumping" right in on your conversation without you all getting to know me at all.
I am a new student of Kriya Yoga through the S.R.F. and the reason I wanted to comment on this thread is because of my long and extensive peroid of use of entheogenic substances and other substances as well I guess. I should explain I guess that I am currently on a Methadone maintenence therapy program and dose daily with Methadone (90mg daily) to stay out of opiate withdrawls due to my past addiction to heroin and the likes...I know opiates are not the topic here, and that is not my point, you just should know this I guess, but I have used on many occasions all of these substances: LSD, LSA, MDMA, MDA, MDE, Mushrooms (many varietys including amanita muscaria), Mescaline, Salvia, Ketamine (including a year period of daily 250mg dosing at bed time), 2c-b, 2c-e, 2c-t2, 2c-c, 2c-d, 4-ho-dipt- 4-oh-mipt, dmt(very regular usage), dpt, I really honestly could go on and on but due to all the complaining over long posts I will stop there.(and by the way I read every word of that "long" post and even read all of the links as well. I should also add that I am saving and hoping to rid myself of my methadone addiction next summer using Ibogaine Therapy but that is another story. My real reason for joining this forum and posting today, is to state my opinion on this subject because this is the subject most close to my heart. I am a true believer that there is a positive balance that can be achieved between the use of entheogens and the practice of any meditative yogic practice or as I believe the "Doc" stated any "Sadhana". Entheogenic use for the purposes of "God-Realization" (which is what we are ALL trying to acheive here) has been around, and I may cause a stir saying this, but since the dawn of human spirituality and may have even triggered it. (Try reading Terence McKenna's "Food of the Gods" or Graham Hancocks "SuperNatural") What do you all think "Soma" is/was in the Rig Veda? I think that modern humanity places far too much emphasis on demonizing and regulating hallucinogens when we really should be using them, at least in conjuction with yoga, to help us explore the God within. Far too much fear and dis and mis-information exists over the use of entheogens and I think a lot of you might do well to compare the DMT state to Samadhi, and realize that they are one and the same. I do not recommend entheogenic use to those who are not mentally stable, but everyone on this forum most likely is, so I hesitantly almost DO recommend you all try ayahausca once in the right setting, and see what it is like. I think you would all be very surprised to see the leaps and bounds you may make after in your own Sadhana.
Peace and love and no offense meant,

Nice to meet you all

Carson Zi
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machart

USA
342 Posts

Posted - Aug 14 2008 :  12:04:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I have had some very useful experiences with psychedelics that pushed me toward more spiritual thoughts. Treat the psychedelic experiences as gifts from GOD and learn as much as you can from them. ... They eventually point you to YOGA which allows you to achieve unity without the need for drugs. If you have not done so, read BE HERE NOW...a classic!

Edited by - machart on Aug 16 2008 11:55:33 PM
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windh2o

USA
27 Posts

Posted - Sep 27 2008 :  12:41:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit windh2o's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Good fun (I presume) but as far as proceeding on the Deep Meditation path ....useless (and dangerous)
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Eitherway

USA
100 Posts

Posted - Sep 27 2008 :  11:44:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit Eitherway's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
"Good Fun (I presume) but as far as proceeding on the Deep Meditation path ....useless (and dangerous)"

Good fun and spiritual practice are not mutually exclusive. Many of us here have used entheogens somewhere along our journey and I'm sure most of us would say that with the right intentions, they can teach us a lot.

Don't forget marijuana is considered sacred by a whole lot of Indian spiritualists because of its ability to bring on the witness state almost instantly in some users.

So I think you might be presuming too much. I do wholeheartedly agree that the ayp path is the way to go and entheogens can be a mixed bag. However, I simply can't deny that entheogens have been a part of the spritual quest since time immemorial, if only to give us inspiration and eventually (the quicker the better) bring us to yoga practices.

Why the quicker the better? In my experience, the use of entheogens does give us glimpes of truth, however, I don't believe it can hold a candle to yoga in being a lasting catalyst of purification and improvement. In ayp, experiences are not the end game, whereas by using entheogens this is the specific goal. So we might get a experience of the witness state or unity while eating some mushrooms loaded with psylocibin, however, when the experience is finished, are we on the path of purification and improvement? Maybe some people for a certain period of time, but no comparison to ayp.

I have some experience with psylocibin, marijuana, and a couple of designer chemicals whipped up originally by Dr. Shulgin but can't speak of behalf of ayahausca, ketamine, etc......

take care,
eitherway
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