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interpaul
USA
525 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 19 2022 : 7:02:27 PM
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In my ongoing struggle to fully understand the connection/safety of the ecstatic in pursuit of enlightenment I came across a conversation between Lord Krishna and Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita in which Krishna warns Arjuna in no uncertain terms to be "ever vigilant against the treacherousness of the senses", It seems in the dialogue fairly early on in the Bhagavad Gita there is a warning regarding pleasures to "learn to be unaffected by them".
Trying to integrate with the seemingly intentional efforts to activate Shakti through SBP/dynamic chin pumps,spinal bastrika/tantra etc with the goal of unity. I've fully accepted the emphasis AYP/Yogani has placed on inner silence while encouraging the ecstatic once established in the witness so as to proceed to unity. Yet, this message from the Bhagavad Gita reminds me a lot of the cautions I've heard from Buddhism and many other paths regarding pleasure.
Any wisdom you can share on your perspective would be appreciated. |
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Dogboy
USA
2198 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2022 : 03:26:12 AM
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I am far from a yogi scholar (Christi?) thus cannot hold my own in a conversation about Bhagavad Gita, but my take on pleasure is that it is but another piece of our individual lives we need to come to terms with, and examine in our silence on an ongoing basis if troubled by it. There is no good or bad in your inner pleasure, sensations arising and fading as we transition towards our “truer” selves. We are that, I guess, that’s what I understand it to be.
You are in the process of coming to terms. I hope the forum can help you out   |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2022 : 05:41:58 AM
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Pleasure is fleeting. It comes and goes. The bliss we experience in Unity is not. It is the innate essence of our pure being. It is not something we can "seek" (yet not, not seek) but it is. And yes, AYP puts forth a path of pleasure to reach the ultimate - why not? A path must be picked even if a pathless path. Non-duality jargon 
Sey |
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interpaul
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2022 : 5:59:25 PM
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Dogboy, Thanks. I am reading the book Christi had recommeneded about the Bhagavad Gita after his recent youtube discussion of yoga. Since this text is considered one of the key teachings in the Yoga tradition it seems relevant. The very strong message I glean from my first pass at the text feeds into my long held fear about the potential trap of a pleasure path.
Sey, Thank you for your non dual stab at my question. I have moments in which the blissful states go beyond the mundane sexual realm and I get glimpses of a deeper truth, yet, most days I am tethered to this physical body which demands my attention. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4372 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2022 : 10:43:53 PM
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Hi Interpaul,
In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna is guiding Arjuna to cultivate the witness, which is an important aspect of AYP. And then from there, Krishna guides him to become aware of the true nature of the Self through devotion, meditation, and self-inquiry, which again, is the process we follow in AYP. So, not much has changed in 2,500 years, which is quite remarkable, and is testimony to how advanced Indian civilization was at that stage. It is even more remarkable when we realise that these texts were not even written down for several hundred years. They were simply remembered!
In AYP we do have energy cultivating practices to speed up the energetic side of the awakening process. But, this is not to create pleasure in order to then become attached to it. The ecstasy that arises from the awakening of kundalini, is simply a side effect of awakening. Ecstasy is witnessed, just like every other phenomena.
And, ecstasy does not last forever. It will gradually evolve into something else, that Yogani refers to as a "quiet divine smile". See here in lesson 95:
"The big rushes of ecstasy have to do with purification. It is the fun part of house cleaning, but it is still house cleaning. In time, there will be less friction in the nervous system and the ecstasy will become refined, like a quiet divine smile forever radiating outward from inside you -- very peaceful and very powerful." [Yogani]
The cultivation of inner silence and the witness, is always at the front and centre of AYP practice, which includes the cultivation of non-attachment. Non-attachment arises as the witness arises, as it is an essential ingredient in it. This is why meditation is taught before pranayama and asana, in the AYP system.
Christi |
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interpaul
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2022 : 05:08:20 AM
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| Christi, Thank you for this clarification. I will refocus my attention on witnessing the ecstasy rather than chasing it. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4372 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2022 : 12:34:22 PM
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2022 : 2:41:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
In my ongoing struggle to fully understand the connection/safety of the ecstatic in pursuit of enlightenment I came across a conversation between Lord Krishna and Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita in which Krishna warns Arjuna in no uncertain terms to be "ever vigilant against the treacherousness of the senses", It seems in the dialogue fairly early on in the Bhagavad Gita there is a warning regarding pleasures to "learn to be unaffected by them".
Interesting discussion: All the comments are right, and offer a different perspective, emphasizing the aspects that are relevant for each journey at this time. This is how a book becomes alive: With each reading by each person, it offers a new lesson!
Krishna's warning to be "vigilant against the treacherousness of the senses" points to the fact that sense experiences create desires, and desires create cravings, and then the entire circle of the worldly suffering becomes reinforced. Simply said, it is hard to get anywhere including in our yoga and meditation practice, when we are governed by desires and cravings, and sense experiences are at their origins. Cultivating this link of sense experiences-desires-cravings it is a sure way to reinforce our mis-knowledge of reality and identity and walk even farther from the Truth.
Krishna teaching that one should learn to be unaffected by pleasure points to the cultivation of non-attachment. Patanjali clearly states that yoga requires two elements for progress: practice and non-attachment. Non-attachment starts with accepting things as they are, and goes deeper and deeper, until we learn to be unaffected by our worldly experience, allowing the sense of self to dissolve and the rise of the reflection of True Knowledge, the experience of sameness, the seeing of the Truth, the wisdom in action, the ultimate Oneness.
Denying and running away from sense experiences and pleasures may work at the beginning, but eventually they have to be managed. it is easy to understand this: Oneness means that everything is included, all our likes and dislikes. If we try to isolate one element, one experience, one person, this Oneness is not quite One, isn't it? Not seeing this is karma keeping us tied to the wheel of the world. Seeing that we are addicted to pleasures and avoiding pain or displeasure, and then acting without being affected by them is the way to transcend karma and go deeper.
Rather than avoiding pleasure, a more skillful way is to use it to nurture our practice. We use the pleasure to nurture our practice and learn to be dispassionate about it in time. This skillful way of action is called in Sanskrit "upaya" - artful action.
Looking forward to others' commentaries. |
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Dogboy
USA
2198 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2022 : 4:03:12 PM
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| Well said! |
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Walter
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2022 : 5:05:26 PM
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I hesitate to post anything here as one could hardly add anything to the previous responses,based on such profound knowledge and experience. But an analogy occurred to me which may have some (I hope not too-trite) relevance to this important topic. Whether sufficiently apt, and not too-diluting with respect to the concentrated knowledge and wisdom of the previous posts, I leave to the moderators to decide.
I have seen several instances of stray dogs who have come to fear and deeply distrust humans. Someone feels compassion for the lost, hungry and terrified animal and coaxes it toward an offering of food. Eventually, the animal takes the food, then further food, then tentatively allows itself to be touched, later patted, eventually head and ears fondled and tummy rubbed, and eventually becomes happy and joyful in the experience of tactile stimulation. But with this comes a new-found devotion to and faith in his saviour and provider, which would not depend on the continued food provision and tactile stimuli. Just being with its new owner is all it wants; love, trust, faith, confidence and security, all in one.
Of course, a similar analogy could be offered from many uplifting stories of neglected and/or abused children adopted into loving families, though the analogy is less adequate here in that, for humans the further step of Self-realisation is possible, and, for this, one does not normally have to start from an abused, fearful and /or distrustful pyschological state; mere everyday existence in ignorance of higher states is the norm. From here, it helps to have some ‘sign’ that such higher states do exist and are possible to reach by everyone, given a spiritual calling and the right environment, especially the accessibility of appropriate guidance. For me, that was Yogani's teaching and kundalini awakening.
My youthful seeking had led me to some experience of the witness (without that name), but I questioned its value. It was only the (much) later awakening of Kundalini (a physically-manifested phenomenon), allied to the wider AYP teaching, that provided the faith needed to accept the concept of the Self, and return to the Bhagavad-Gita that I had first read 60 years before. I see no contradiction in a phenomenon that is experienced as ecstatic, and the fact that something more important is developing at the same time. It becomes possible to detach immediately from the ecstasy if so desired, but, in my opinion, there is no need for this so long as one witnesses the experience, especially if, as a result of these experiences, your general happiness radiates to those around you, and you don’t lose sight of the ultimate goal. While you are experiencing this ecstasy, you are still in the world of duality. In time, I’m sure you will come to value inner peace more, and will be able to detach from any sensual experience that holds you in the realm of duality.
For the record, the version of the Bhagavad-Gita that I first read around 70 years ago is the largely paraphrased one by Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher Isherwood. Over the last 9 years or so it has become my favoured bedtime reading, having survived about 50 years of neglect in between. During those decades I bought several other versions, but I was not ready, and I found their modes of presentation more difficult to comprehend as a whole. I still find the Prabhavananda/Isherwood version most immediately accessible to my understanding, but I would be interested to learn of Christi’ recommended version. In any event, I feel that to fully appreciate the Gita one has first to have one’s own Krishna. For us, I feel, that is AYP’s function.
“Say not the struggle naught availeth”. [/
Best wishes to all for 2023.  ]
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interpaul
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2022 : 7:36:30 PM
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Blanche, Thank you for your very helpful comments. Yesterday I was listening to Beethoven's 9th symphony. I was deeply moved. There was a richness to the depth of emotion evoked by listening to this story teller from the past. I didn't seek out pleasure but experienced it nonetheless. My interpretation of these teachings suggests there's nothing wrong with enjoying pleasant moments. Suffering comes from seaking them out and being attached to them. In the blissful moments of taking in Beethoven I was reminded of the blissful and ecstatic feelings that come from AYP practices. If all of this disappeared from my life I would suffer. That suggests I'm attached to these practices.
One thing I've become more acutely aware of is the depth of pleasure natural vajroli has created. I went down the path of Taoism followed by AYP with the goal of transmutting sexual energy into spiritual energy. These transformed energies are not typically experienced within the realm of the typical senses as they are experienced internally with eyes closed and a silent mind with no physical touch (other than the weight of the body against the heel in sidhasana). This does seem healthy and powerful yet I can see an even greater draw towards connecting with this energy more so than the typical pleasure that comes from the 5 senses. Am I to assume I ultimately am supposed to remain non attached to this energy as well? How do I interpret this within the context of Yogani's description of 24/7 ecstatic bliss? I realize the goal is for this to further transmute into outpouring of divine love yet I do wonder if I've just entered an even more difficult attachment that will require greater sacrifice to transcend.
It might be helpful to define "sense" experiences, do they include natural vajroli?
Walter, Thank you for your comments. The Bhagavad Gita A walkthrough for westerners by Jack Hawley is the book recommended to me.
It's interesting when I read your story about the dog I thought you were going to develop that theme to suggest once the dog trusts the new owner he becomes dependent on that person and potentially vulnerable to feeling an even greater fear if/when the owner lets him down. My interpretation of what your story was going to suggest is a window into my own psychology. I am happy you have found such peace through your practices. It is also interesting you mentioned "you are still in the world of duality"... "while you are experiencing this ecstasy". I've often wondered if states of ecstatic bliss actually transcend duality as they feel rarified and go beyond the ordinary.
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2023 : 3:21:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
Blanche, Thank you for your very helpful comments. Yesterday I was listening to Beethoven's 9th symphony. I was deeply moved. There was a richness to the depth of emotion evoked by listening to this story teller from the past. I didn't seek out pleasure but experienced it nonetheless. My interpretation of these teachings suggests there's nothing wrong with enjoying pleasant moments. Suffering comes from seaking them out and being attached to them. In the blissful moments of taking in Beethoven I was reminded of the blissful and ecstatic feelings that come from AYP practices. If all of this disappeared from my life I would suffer. That suggests I'm attached to these practices.
One thing I've become more acutely aware of is the depth of pleasure natural vajroli has created. I went down the path of Taoism followed by AYP with the goal of transmutting sexual energy into spiritual energy. These transformed energies are not typically experienced within the realm of the typical senses as they are experienced internally with eyes closed and a silent mind with no physical touch (other than the weight of the body against the heel in sidhasana). This does seem healthy and powerful yet I can see an even greater draw towards connecting with this energy more so than the typical pleasure that comes from the 5 senses. Am I to assume I ultimately am supposed to remain non attached to this energy as well? How do I interpret this within the context of Yogani's description of 24/7 ecstatic bliss? I realize the goal is for this to further transmute into outpouring of divine love yet I do wonder if I've just entered an even more difficult attachment that will require greater sacrifice to transcend.
It might be helpful to define "sense" experiences, do they include natural vajroli?
Interpaul,
The point you raise is important, and I have reflected on it often. As you notice, attachment to senses (sensorial experiences) does not mean avoiding them, may that be pleasure or pain or nostalgia or sadness or joy or bliss or tenderness and so on. It is not being attached to the experience. Yes, as you write, attachment shows up as “missing” the experience. Are we fine with a meal of bread and water or do we need a three-course meal to be satisfied?
Here is a story from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones about master Hakuin taking life as it comes, without judgement:
3. Is That So?
The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbors as one living a pure life. A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning her parents discovered she was with child.
This made her parents angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin. In great anger the parents went to the master. 'Is that so?' was all he would say. After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbors and everything else the little one needed. A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth - that the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fish market. The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask his forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back again. Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was, 'Is that so?'
Noticing and enjoying the effects of Vajroli or Siddhasana or whatever would come our way is fine. We know that we would be fine if all these pleasurable experiences go away one day. At the core of “I am experiencing pleasure” is I am which is peaceful, silent, still, eternal. When the identity is oriented to I am, we realize that these experiences are transitory, and this is ok. I am is our core, it is like our naked body, while sensorial experiences, desires, thoughts, and so on are like the clothes covering the body. The clothes change just as our thoughts, feelings, experiences, but they do not change the body under them.
And then we should use our discrimination. Cultivating non-attachment does not mean giving up on spiritual practices. Late in his 80s, the Enlightened Buddha was still meditating for hours every day. Over the years, there may be a shift in how we practice, what we practice, but the journey continues. The witness stage gives space to see that we are not our thoughts and experiences, but the witness is not the end of the journey. When I read these stories, I see that I am only a beginner and there is so much more ahead.
My puppy is determined to take down the house. It is time for his walk, so I will leave it here. Let me know if this makes sense.
Happy New Year of the Water Rabbit 2023, with prosperity and peace!
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interpaul
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2023 : 06:43:55 AM
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Blanche, Thanks for weighing in again. I hope your puppy is learning to respect the rules of the house. That phase in a dog's life is special but challenging for the owner for sure.
I have often shared the story of the "is that so" monk with friends. I do see it as an ideal but not one most of us can live and seems a bit sterile for my taste. I have reflected a lot on this topic as it continues to bother me at some deeper level. As my practices have matured I've noticed an ever increasing awareness of the ecstatic developing within. Yogani does repeatedly emphasize the importance of developing inner silence yet, so much of the teachings center around practices that enhance the movement of prana in the body. Even DM now is infused with radiant energy. Kechari, siddhasana, YMK, spinal bastrika and even samayama cause ecstatic energy within me (albeit to different degrees from practice to practice). We are taught to preserve our prana and "cultivate" it. My reading of Yogani's teachings is the cultivation part is all of these practices. I was rereading Ram Dass's book "The journey of awakening". He also shares similar cautions regarding the risks of getting distracted with sensual experiences.
My instincts tell me this radiant energy that grows within me is the fuel for further spiritual transformation. It seems to be the fundamental wisdom shared in Taoism and AYP: preserve your energy and direct it from the root to the third eye.
Am I the only one who is bothered by what seems to be mixed messages? This reminds me a little of the caution "watch out what you ask for as you may get it". I now have preserved and cultivated this energy and different sources (including one of the key yoga texts) caution about this practice. |
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Dogboy
USA
2198 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2023 : 05:03:43 AM
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quote:
My instincts tell me this radiant energy that grows within me is the fuel for further spiritual transformation. It seems to be the fundamental wisdom shared in Taoism and AYP: preserve your energy and direct it from the root to the third eye.
Am I the only one who is bothered by what seems to be mixed messages? This reminds me a little of the caution "watch out what you ask for as you may get it". I now have preserved and cultivated this energy and different sources (including one of the key yoga texts) caution about this practice.
You have preserved, and directed, experienced experiences, and sampled ecstasy, all because of your dedication to practice. If you are bothered by its results, it is proper to sit within and reflect. The caution regarding attachment to anything is true for both yogi and non yogi in our vulnerable quests to Know Thyself. As a yogi, and awakening the gift of silence and witness within, your ability “to get to the bottom of bother” lies there. You did not have that before AYP.
Are the messages truly mixed, and is it a zero-sum situation? Are the gurus cautioning not to practice? I think not. The gurus you’ve mentioned were surely both ecstatic and cautious, and kept going on their paths. And you will too, once you have come to a comfortable understanding of your behaviors and motivations.
Your only other option is to stop your practices altogether. Would that successfully eliminate your bother? Would that possibly not bother you more? |
Edited by - Dogboy on Jan 04 2023 05:15:02 AM |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2023 : 2:45:55 PM
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Hi Interpaul,
You are right that the radiant energy rising in you is fueling the spiritual transformation. In the same time, this is not the same as sensorial experience. It is the fierce Divine in you that wants to go home. It is Shakti called also Kundalini or the Holy Spirit. It feel great when your intentions and actions align with it, and it “burns down the house” when we step away from the path – or simply goes dormant if we do not support it with practices and an appropriate lifestyle.
As about the story of the master Hakuin, his calm attitude of “Is it so?” does not reflect casual indifference, but the ability to respond to what life brings without the baggage of past experiences, beliefs, judgements, fears, and so on. He could live without the fear of societal judgement, without expectations. Can we imagine that?
When we carry our problems or attachments everywhere, it is like going through life weighed down by many heavy bags. When we learn to put down some of our heavy attachments, there is a huge sense of relief. In time, we learn that our stories are just that: stories. It is ok to let them go. Our identity is not tied to these attachments. It is like a huge weight is release from the heart, a weight we did not even know we had. We find that everything shines anew, and we can be present to what comes our way, fully engaged with life, with its ups and downs. Emotions come and go, they feel even more intense, and they pass as the situation dissolves. Attachments are less “sticky.” When this happens even a little, it is easier to notice the places where the ego is still stuck, and there is work to be done…
As questions arise, there is a sense that with more yoga practice, things will clarify. Some questions get answers, and many more just dissolve or shift.
“Put down the baggage of attachment” is easier said than done, but it starts to happen with a steady practice of meditation and inquiry. |
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Walter
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2023 : 5:59:21 PM
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Interpaul. Thank you for your information re Hawley's version of the Gita. I shall get a copy.
I would like to share my own reflections on issues you raised since they are of such interest and critical importance to us all and, as Blanche says, different perspectives can often be a help to others. Also, it helps me greatly to clarify for myself my thoughts and uncertainties on such issues. In this respect, any different views and/or corrections would be welcome.
Regarding Kundalini awakening, Interpaul, you are certainly not alone in having concerns about this experience. I have often thought about it, and the following points seem relevant.
Ecstatic experiences of some famous mystics following various religious paths have been reported over the centuries (e.g., William James “Varieties of Religious Experience”). A far greater number of well known religious figures never reported such experiences. Inference: the term mysticism seems to imply kundalini awakening in some form; spiritual development per se does not necessarily require such awakening. Question: Do (or could) mystics have access to deeper spiritual truths? My take: Again, not necessarily; it depends on how/where the energy released manifests itself and/or is directed by the mind. I, personally, consider it likely that the yoga exercises we practice progressively open up intellectual and emotional brain neuronal networks that had not been accessible before, this allowing, in some people, access to deeper spiritual understanding.
The Gita defines the fully developed spiritual seeker in much the same way as did Christ’s sermon on the mount, some obvious (but reconcilable) differences excepted. Neither text specifically mentions (to my knowledge) concurrent awakening of ecstatic energies necessary for, or associated with, such spiritual development (but see * below). People living by these principles of behaviour (e.g., Blanche’s Zen master) surely epitomise spiritual development in its highest form. I feel that sufficiently intense spiritual drive/bhakti (the Holy Spirit), perhaps genetic in origin (Karma), can bring about this transformation of man’s thinking/feeling/behaviour without Kundalini-evoked ecstatic experience, but may be required in this life to enable others, not genetically so beneficially disposed, to make greater progress toward that same end than would have been possible without it.
*Could it be, however, that the Gita and New Testament actually do describe mystical experiences metaphorically, as Krishna revealing Himself to Arjuna (the Gita) and Book of Revelation (Bible). Or St Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus? Or a range of Old Testament experiences? Are these ‘revelations’, in large part, just the everyday world we see around us as viewed during an intense state of sensory awareness, coupled with all sorts of sub-conscious content, and expressed in metaphorical terms? As widely accepted, Kundalini awakening can express itself in many forms, these depending on the type of person (intellectual; emotional; instinctive; educational and environmental background, etc) experiencing it, the brain regions most affected and the intensity of the experience.
I, personally, seem to have experienced a quantum leap in spiritual understanding (to the extent, anyway, that I am not deluding myself, which is always possible) following Kundalini awakening, but I have friends at least as advanced along their own paths (Gurdjieff teachings in one case; Ramana Maharshi follower in another). Both of them are sceptical about the need for Kundalini awakening. One can hardly refute that this is the most common view, as, indeed, was it my own before I had the experience myself. We can only answer this scepticism by saying that we, ourselves, having been taught how to awaken these energies, feel we have benefitted greatly in some way from them. Are they essential to spiritual understanding? For me, having been stuck for 30 years previously, yes, I am sure it was. For others, apparently not; but who knows how much deeper their understanding may bave been had they had such experience?
Does this matter? We are all on personal journeys; “Seek and ye shall find”. In my case, I found everything coming together that had eluded me before. It doesn’t matter what others find helpful, or reject as unlikely to be helpful (usually from ignorance, some from prejudice), on their journeys (unless, being stuck ourselves, their experience is also able to help us get back on track); I am sure we are all headed in the same direction, so long as we don’t forget why we are on this journey and what we were searching for when we began.
In your particular case, I wonder whether, when you feel the fear of possible future loss arising, as well as witnessing both this fear and the pleasure itself, you might find it useful to bring to mind two words (samyama-wise?): gratitude (or appreciation), for the knowledge and experience granted you, and trust (or faith) in the permanence of the Source (and accessibility) of that knowledge. I do not feel you need to ‘give up’ the sense of pleasure, just observe it (which is already a major part of detachment) and give thanks. But viewed as just scenery on the way, and not the destination, why not enjoy the scenery to the full while it is pleasant; it will change in time, perhaps to something less pleasurable sensually but ultimately more fulfilling. It is good that you are so wary of the pitfalls; I feel sure it is indeed essential to keep those in mind. Maybe yours is a similar case to that of St Augustine: “Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet”?
All good wishes.
Walter.
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interpaul
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2023 : 05:28:15 AM
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Dogboy, You are correct. I would be bothered much more by abandoning this path as I know it has been the first spiritual practice I've done that has born any significant fruit. Hearing the cautionary notes in several texts to avoid becoming attached to the fruits of the practices might be more palatable if it was worded "do not become TOO attached to the fruits..." I often think of Yogani's description in the tantra practices of the "stairway to heaven" (or something like that)when he talks of the tantric practice of holding back. There seems no way to not be somewhat attached to that state of deep and intensifying arousal. The very practice forces one to greater heights of sensual connection. I do sense his ultimate message is to use these practices as ways to prime the spiritual body in the same way practicing SBP enhances DM.
Blanche, When you say "radiant energy...is not the same as sensorial experience". I agree partially. Although Kundalini energy is an internal energy it does interface with our bodies. Beyond the ecstatic aspects which do seem to have transcendental aspects, I feel sensations of warmth, buzzing and movement within my spinal nerve which seem to interface with the bodily senses. I experience this pranic energy as much more compelling than those experienced with the more typical senses.
Your framing of this as an attachment that needs to be "put down.. (resulting in) a huge sense of relief" creates anxiety for me. AYP helped cultivate EC in me. These practices have relieved some of the suffering I experience in my day to day life. I worry this will serve as a barrier to achieving my true goal, unity. I suspect I'm just in a phase and need to be patient as I work though my life drama.
Walter, I really appreciate you sharing your experience. Becoming unstuck after 30 years is amazing! Your suggestion to incorporate gratitude and trust into my practices makes good sense. I do feel a great deal of appreciation for Yogani's teachings and the kind souls who frequent this site and share their wisdom/experiences. Trust/faith has always been a challenge for me. This most recent post comes from other sources posing doubts about the trust I've placed within these practices. I wouldn't be 3 1/2 years into a consistent twice daily practice if I didn't have some trust. I love the St Augustine quote, fits with my comments to dogboy some. |
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Walter
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2023 : 1:58:15 PM
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Again the problem of words! The terms ‘gratitude/appreciation’ and ‘trust/faith’ I used were meant to apply to our human connection with the ‘Source’, as made possible by the AYP system. As with you, I and all the rest of us here, I’m sure, are profoundly grateful to Yogani and his system, including his creation of this forum and thus our means to both provide help to and to seek help from each other along our Way. But what I really meant by the Source, translated into religious terms, was the Prime Consciousness manifesting Itself as the Creator/Maintainer/Destroyer of Everything in a Beginningless and Endless Cycle (Brahman, God the Father, and multiple similarly specific terms in other religions) made accessible to us through Self-realisation (the Atman, God Within), this itself - in my view - being the ultimate object of our AYP practices.
It is interesting, Interpaul, that trust/faith has been something of an obstacle to you, as it was for me, resulting in my 30-year hiatus in spiritual development. I had not recognised and therefore not appropriately valued the Nature of the Self (as Consciousness of Consciousness) - and its relation to the Source. For me, this required Kundalini awakening. In the eight years since then, attraction to sensual satisfactions of all kinds has progressively diminished. My feeling is that this will occur with you, too, and that your perceived need for/addiction to sensual pleasure will drop away in time. You can still enjoy it, without being in thrall to it.
All this connects with Jeanjean’s topic on ‘being present’. We need to realise Who/What is Present in the higher states of Being. I am That. Cultivating inner silence is surely the major aid, probably indispensable, in such endeavour. In the meantime, for me, the Bhagavad Gita describes this goal as cogently as any words possibly can. As does the sermon on the mount in the Christian bible.
As a footnote, may I just add my idea of ‘sense experience(s)’, in relation to your request for definitions. Although your query was more directed to Blanche, my particular take would be: Any ‘conscious’ mental, emotional or instinctive ‘interpretation’ (picture, sound, smell etc) and response thereto of messages from the senses. For us, these may be of two kinds (1) Witness absent: the message received in the ‘ordinary waking state’ (i.e., not physically asleep), conscious with lower case c; everyday experience of what your senses are telling you, to which you will react mechanically, e.g., with pleasure, indifference or dismay etc, etc, and, hopefully - in the healthy body/mind - appropriately. (2) Witness present: Conscious with capital C; Self included in the experience; additional choice of response often available, including no mechanical/automatic/habitual (physical, emotional or intellectual) response at all (detachment, ‘action in inaction’?), and widening (opening) of the experience to include those of several other senses all-at-once; this often evoking other, deeper, mental and/or emotional (awe, wonder, joy, sense of beauty, appreciation of blessings, ...... ), sometimes even physical responses (jumping with joy, skipping down the road, running exuberantly along the beach …..) all, I feel, Expressions of Divine Love, if some distinct terminology needs to be used, but I would rather just accept the experience without labels.
Please forgive this latest torrent of words; it helps me to (try to) formulate my thoughts, I just hope it doesn't confuse others. I’m not an accredited teacher, just a very ordinary guy, not a mystic, not possessing of any special powers; all that I submit in this forum is just my particular take on the questions that brought us all here. I still have doubts (though these usually ‘dropped’, as negative and unproductive, immediately they arise) on whether any of what I write is ‘true’, but as a ‘working hypothesis’ it fills a void in the absence of any ‘scientific evidence’ in its support. It is much more emotionally fulfilling than any of the scientific hypotheses that kept me occupied for 50 years during my working life. And infinitely more important to me.
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Dogboy
USA
2198 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2023 : 8:02:55 PM
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| Walter, you are a blessing. Much of your post speaks to my present understanding. |
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interpaul
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2023 : 8:18:24 PM
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| Walter, I will join dogboy in expressing my gratitude for you for sharing your perspective/wisdom. I have come to appreciate how "creature like" I am. That is, these yoga practices are stretching my concepts of the very nature of how my body and mind function. The movement of prana in my body alone has changed so much in the last few years. It is ironic these methods have the intention to transcend the physical. It seems the only way to transcend the physical is to experience it more intensely. |
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Bhagavad Gita and Shakti
