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 Witness and not caring?
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Wil

Sweden
156 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2022 :  9:00:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

Is there any guideline to know if Witness or Dispassion is creating the humble non attached feeling, or if it is perhaps overdoing symptoms of some subtle kind?
I have long thought about this but now this question surface. I am not ignoring the world, I am engaged but I don't seem to care that much. I have heard examples from here at the forum where one overdo practices and have a hard time enjoying anything, and with that, it becomes a paradox to me.

Wil

SeySorciere

Seychelles
1548 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2022 :  06:26:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Will,

This is what Yogani says about Witnessing and Dispassion from Lesson 327

quote:
Witnessing

As mentioned before, the witnessing stage is a whole new ball game. It should be pointed out that there is witnessing and there is witnessing. There is a continuum of development as witnessing emerges. It begins as a passive inner condition perceived as a separation from the events going on around us, often first noticed during the occurrence of dynamic events. Everyone has had the experience of time standing still when a dynamic event occurred, like a car crash, explosion or other sudden change in our physical environment. When the witness begins to emerge, ordinary events are gradually experienced more in this way also. As witnessing continues to advance, our body, thoughts and feelings become objects of perception that are separate from our sense of self, our witness. This is an important development.

Before the witness has developed to the point where our thoughts and feelings become objects of perception, self-inquiry will be mostly non-relational, meaning not fully connected with who we are pure consciousness. The dawn of the witness sets the stage for real self-inquiry, and an ongoing change in our life experience, for this is when the process can move beyond ideas to the direct experience. And the direct experience is beyond all experience. In the initial witness condition, we are experiencing, but we are not the experience. We are beyond it, seeing from the point of view of separate pure awareness.

There are a few more steps beyond the emergence of the witness that we must go through. It is not enough to be strongly established in inner silence, seeing the changing world as separate from ourselves. We must do something with it to move it forward. Evolution compels us to do so. With a little nudging, it happens naturally enough. This is where self-inquiry can have its greatest impact on our over all path to enlightenment, because we are able to make conscious choices based in our stillness. We see our thoughts, feelings and perceptions of the world for what they are, without being entirely identified with them. We are then able to engage in a way that is liberating rather than binding, both for ourselves and for others.

Other yoga practices are an aid to this process, such as samyama, spinal breathing pranayama, and additional practices that cultivate ecstatic conductivity (kundalini awakening) in the body. As we become more established in both inner silence and ecstatic conductivity, we experience refinements in perception and the movement of dynamic stillness into our thought processes. These developments support steadily increasing effectiveness in relational self-inquiry.


quote:
Dispassion

The condition of dispassion is one of the primary goals of self-inquiry. Those who are very enthusiastic and dedicated to self-inquiry are very passionate about developing dispassion. This is non-relational self-inquiry, of course. We all have to begin somewhere. We can't begin at the end, though we may certainly be passionate about the ideal we have chosen, and that serves a purpose. It is our bhakti (devotion to our chosen ideal).

Dispassion is not a doing at all, and is beyond self-inquiry itself. It isn't even a letting go, for it is beyond choice. Dispassion is a state of being. It is the subject (the witness, our sense of Self) developed through an integration of practices to the point where all the objects of experience are taken in stride, without identification. This applies to events, relationships, and all that is going on in the body, heart and mind.

Is dispassion a state of indifference, a state of uncaring? Does it mean we do not act or react in the world? It does not mean that. It is just the opposite. Much of spiritual development is paradoxical, with less becoming much more.

The gradual emergence of dispassion means we are becoming more free to act for the good of all. Inner silence will move to do this through us more and more, the further we travel along the path. It is the paradox of enlightenment. The more we have gone beyond, the more engaged we will become for the benefit of others. This is the nature of divine consciousness.

We really have to give credit where credit is due. Deep meditation (if we are doing it) is the primary cultivator of dispassion, because dispassion is an advanced stage of the witness. A stand-alone path of self-inquiry can lead to dispassion also, but it is rare. To succeed, self-inquiry must ascend to the level of meditation, the transcendence of all objects of attention. If self-inquiry is done like this over time, then the witness will dawn and, in more time, there will be dispassion. It is a difficult path, because it lacks a structured and efficient routine of practice. The concept of practice itself may be lacking. Self-inquiry of the stand-alone variety will be about constantly remembering to release all objects of perception, including all thoughts, feelings and perceptions of external objects. When self-inquiry becomes a deeply ingrained habit, then that will be a kind of ongoing meditation. How an approach like this will fit into daily life is another question, since it requires ongoing self-inquiry to be incorporated into every nook and cranny of our daily life. This may not be practical for someone with a family and career. There can be direct conflicts, particularly before the witness has dawned.

On the other hand, if deep meditation and other sitting practices are undertaken in a structured twice-daily routine, and life is lived normally, the witness will be coming up naturally as a support to family and career, and also as a support to undertake self-inquiry in a way that does not disrupt the normal flow of life. Deep meditation provides the witness, and self-inquiry provides the perspective in a way that is not replacing everyday life and activities, but enhancing them.

Dispassion is at home in the marketplace, as well as in the remote retreat. It is all the same. The combination of daily deep meditation and gradually emerging self-inquiry provides flexibility for living, and is a much faster path as well.


From experience there are phases at the beginning of the emerging Witness where one may question whether this is just a distancing from events in an un-caring manner but such phases pass as the Witness evolves.


Sey
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Blanche

USA
864 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2022 :  1:47:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Wil,

As Sey points out, the witness stage might be experienced initially as a detached uncaring observer. This happens when the heart is not open yet. There is more likely to emerge with inquiry or vipassana practices without a firm foundation in inner silence. There are some with a clear awakening that it is quite dry, without the qualities of the heart that enlivens the experience. It is like watching a movie that does not move you, that is foreign to you, that has nothing to do with you. But this “movie” has everything to do with you and what you are.

There is no separation: You are the witness, you are the screen of the awareness, the maker of the movie, and the movie itself. As the witness becomes more integrated, there is a natural flow of grace in life. The experience of witness is more like that of a parent watching its child. When there is struggle, when there is drama, it is like a parent watching a toddler having a tantrum: Fundamentally, the parent knows that everything is fine, the child is well, loved, well-taken care of, and still the parent can feel and empathize with the child’s distress and real emotional struggle. And the caring parent will have to be involved and help and make things better, which does not mean giving into the tantrum demands which usually makes everything worse in time; it means looking at the root of the problem and acting with that in mind. Then life is infinitely enriched with the qualities of the heart that supports and enlivens everything.
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Wil

Sweden
156 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2022 :  8:00:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I do like the perspectives you give me Sey and Blanche . The lessons and a witness simile with parent and child, what more do I need? Which leads me to that I think this question is connected to how I wonder if one could say that one is "doing samyama on my own feelings of bhakti". Doing Samyama with bhakti as my sutra seems like dispassion to me. I at least feel this is what I do at times in samyama or prayer practice.

Can someone please comment on this, is there such a thing as doing Samyama with bhakti?

Edited by - Wil on Sep 07 2022 11:01:08 PM
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Blanche

USA
864 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2022 :  4:00:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Wil,

As you already know and probably you have already done, "bhakti" may be used as a sutra in samyama. Yes, dispassion would be part of the practice, just like with any other sutra, like in any samyama practice, like in any yoga practice.

Dispassion is a facet of non-attachment, and it is not uncaring. It is releasing any attempt to control the result of the action. As a limited, separated entity, we imagine that we have control over the outcome, when in fact by our intentions and expectations we limit the limitless flow of grace. In fact, there is a very limited control at the individual level, and unlimited control at the Absolute level. When we practice and allow things to go as they may, a much wider, beneficial, amplified effect is possible. Dispassion is like getting out of the way to allow the Divine to work through us.

The incredible thing about yoga is that it works no matter what we believe and from what level we practice. At the same time, it is good to remember that progress on the path requires both practice and non-attachment.

May we all continue on the path for the benefit of all sentient beings.
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Wil

Sweden
156 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2022 :  6:19:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche

Hi Wil,
As you already know and probably you have already done, "bhakti" may be used as a sutra in samyama. Yes, dispassion would be part of the practice, just like with any other sutra, like in any samyama practice, like in any yoga practice.



I see now, thanks for clarifying that dispassion encompasses all, how could that not be obvious to me until now haha.
I did not use "bhakti" as a sutra but after my usual samayama I am picking up *all my emotional issued that I feel/ have felt* two times with 15 sec inbetween...it is a deviation from AYP standard but I like it. I dont do it lightly, but I do release it like regular samyama...

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Wil

Sweden
156 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2022 :  6:22:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
...I'd gladly appreciate a comment on my deviating samyama practice btw...gathering my emotions in an impulse, and doing samyama on that, any problems with that?
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Dogboy

USA
2228 Posts

Posted - Sep 11 2022 :  01:16:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The deeper inner silence is felt, the better practices like Samyama and self inquiry will find personal results. Personally, I would keep Samyama to sutras, and before (or during) rest time, gather/review/release those emotions into the silence you have just banked from DM.
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Wil

Sweden
156 Posts

Posted - Sep 26 2022 :  9:04:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Okay Dogboy, what I am doing now is I take some time to review the self-inquiry at the end of practices
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Wil

Sweden
156 Posts

Posted - Sep 26 2022 :  9:21:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Furthermore...I do not remember the lesson number but Yogani mentions something regarding a discrepancy between social life, career and spiriutal endeavours on the path. I really feel that the only area in life which is slowly transforming is the spiritual practice side of things. For instance, I seem to not respect schedueles or external reminders enough as I feel that action has to come from inside. Even if it seems like an excuse, it is nonetheless a decline in my consistency for other life pursuits. On the other hand, I just automatically let go of a lot of memory software so I seem to need reminders for goals and whatnot. Man, this situation is strange. For good or bad, it just seems like I can't engage in school or social activities the way I used to. I can trust that it will be okay but I can't lower my social and financial standards.
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Dogboy

USA
2228 Posts

Posted - Sep 27 2022 :  04:51:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I does sound like you are dissatisfied, so this state is worthy of your attention so change can happen. I don’t think this is the Yogani lesson you were thinking of, but it might be relevant to your feelings: From lesson 424

quote:
If we are off into ecstasy, sooner or later we will get that wakeup call that says, "Hey, you are ignoring your body, your health, and the practical things in your life. It's time for a change."

Then the ecstatic energy honeymoon is over and the work of integrating our ecstatic condition back into our everyday life will occur. That's the real marriage of stillness and ecstasy. It's a good thing. After the ecstasy, it is about ordinary living, and that is when stillness and ecstasy will find their balance. This is also when we find ourselves to be expressing more and more as "stillness in action" in all aspects of our life. Nothing glamorous. Just ordinary life, lived in an extraordinary freedom.


Perhaps you are unbalanced in some way?
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1548 Posts

Posted - Sep 27 2022 :  06:24:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Wil

...For instance, I seem to not respect schedueles or external reminders enough as I feel that action has to come from inside. Even if it seems like an excuse, it is nonetheless a decline in my consistency for other life pursuits. On the other hand, I just automatically let go of a lot of memory software so I seem to need reminders for goals and whatnot. Man, this situation is strange. For good or bad, it just seems like I can't engage in school or social activities the way I used to. I can trust that it will be okay but I can't lower my social and financial standards.



I remember this phase where "the meeting will start when I get there" and it did - very convenient.

And yes, other life pursuits will no longer be a priority; it will flow naturally. As you let go of "memory software", you live more and more in the now. So, naturally plans for tomorrow appear to not be there but as long as you have an intention of that plan, you will naturally flow towards that - as long as it is for the greater good. But yes, I remember feeling confused as well. And yes, it will all be ok.


Sey


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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1548 Posts

Posted - Sep 27 2022 :  06:27:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
P.S. I am the laziest person I know and yet...


Sey
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Wil

Sweden
156 Posts

Posted - Sep 27 2022 :  12:13:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Dogboy

I does sound like you are dissatisfied, so this state is worthy of your attention so change can happen. I don’t think this is the Yogani lesson you were thinking of, but it might be relevant to your feelings: From lesson 424

quote:
If we are off into ecstasy, sooner or later we will get that wakeup call that says, "Hey, you are ignoring your body, your health, and the practical things in your life. It's time for a change."

Then the ecstatic energy honeymoon is over and the work of integrating our ecstatic condition back into our everyday life will occur. That's the real marriage of stillness and ecstasy. It's a good thing. After the ecstasy, it is about ordinary living, and that is when stillness and ecstasy will find their balance. This is also when we find ourselves to be expressing more and more as "stillness in action" in all aspects of our life. Nothing glamorous. Just ordinary life, lived in an extraordinary freedom.


Perhaps you are unbalanced in some way?



That lesson resonates. Yes there is probably an unbalance, but I will keep on investigating. Maybe I am supposed to be a bit distant to other puruits? Maybe I am being lazy? Maybe this an omen to switch things up?

Hahaha Sey, it is nice to hear that. Hope I can level up with yogi experience points enough to not just sound lazy. I want to be a dynamic couchpotato, stillness in action!
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Blanche

USA
864 Posts

Posted - Sep 28 2022 :  1:22:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
It seems quite normal to put more time into practices and less time in other worldly pursuits. I am perfectly happy to stay home to read and do yoga rather than socializing. In the same time, people around me are continuing their life, so I try to fit in and meet them half-way. When I choose to socialize, I am happy to do it, too.

It might feel good to say "this will happen when will happen" and "we will do it when I get there," but others' time is precious, too. Giving some structure to your activities may help you and others in long term. It would make for smoother relationships, and then maybe others might be interested to learn what you are doing.

Time feels like the most precious thing.
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Dogboy

USA
2228 Posts

Posted - Sep 29 2022 :  03:39:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Wil, another affirmation from Yogani, Lesson 250:

quote:
It is certainly possible to do all of this within a normal working life. In fact, there is an advantage being active doing things other than sitting practices during the day. It integrates the results of our practice, making them very strong and stable. The yogi who cannot navigate in the real world is incomplete. So we are the lucky ones with practices and responsibilities in the world, a potent combination for spiritual progress.

As you continue, you will find your conduct improving in all matters, as this is what abiding inner silence brings over time. You have already expressed some concerns about your "faults." This is your inner silence speaking. Just listen and see how you might make adjustments in conduct as you go along. It is all for the good.




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Wil

Sweden
156 Posts

Posted - Nov 09 2022 :  8:56:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello again,

Just to connect the dots, I ended up selfpacing by decreasing my meditation time (reluctantly) to 10 minutes in October and it has made the picture clear for me. I could have and should have done this back in spring... it was a hard earned lesson :P

Less IS more...but I keep wanting more hehe. Slow and steady wins the race
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1548 Posts

Posted - Nov 10 2022 :  06:10:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Wil

...I'd gladly appreciate a comment on my deviating samyama practice btw...gathering my emotions in an impulse, and doing samyama on that, any problems with that?



Just re-read this thread. In response to this comment. This is what all the practices culminate into, a constant and continuous release of all emotions and other mental activity into Inner Silence, samyama-style. That is dispassion. So yes, release away. Surrendering all. It will come back as more bhakti.


Sey
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Aknaton

Zambia
13 Posts

Posted - Jan 04 2023 :  12:26:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Wil

Hello,

Is there any guideline to know if Witness or Dispassion is creating the humble non attached feeling, or if it is perhaps overdoing symptoms of some subtle kind?
I have long thought about this but now this question surface. I am not ignoring the world, I am engaged but I don't seem to care that much. I have heard examples from here at the forum where one overdo practices and have a hard time enjoying anything, and with that, it becomes a paradox to me.

Wil


Greetings your Majesty!

Awakening is definitely going to lead to compassion and even dispassion & non-attachment & that's actually a positive by-product of the path. Prior to your spiritual practice, our lives were haphazard and we lived according to what we 'thought' was the right way as far as our thoughts could take us. But our interest in the spiritual path led us to realise that there's something out there (in here, actually, lol) that is greater, so we engage in the spiritual path to correct this view of wrong thinking, living & the applications of these 'dualistic' views.

Now that we have made considerable progress in the path, there's still a lot to discover & what we do know for sure is that we have a very necessary detachment. This is not detachment from the world or some kind of nihilism, this is detachment from that wrong view and how we applied it in our lives.

Now that we have disentangled and detached ourself from the wrong view, we can now search for the right view, and the right view is found in awakening (shiva) and purpose (shakti). Our enlightenment is not only in awakening ourself, its also in having a positive imprint on the universe before we leave. Awakening is Emptiness, Purpose is Fullness.

I think, now that you have been emptied of wrong view, you can find the right view.

Namaste!
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