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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 27 2021 : 8:30:06 PM
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Those are powerful words Yogani shares regarding the practice of Kechari. He goes on to say " Kechari is that significant, that powerful, and that indicative of where the human race is heading"
I have been reluctant to do any cutting and have chosen to slowly develop the flexibility to have my tongue enter stage 2 kechari naturally. After nearly 2 1/2 years of AYP practices my tongue is in position to enter stage 2, I believe. Dogboy has shared his experience with me but haven't heard many others discussing their experience with this practice. I have experienced a gradual building of bliss and ecstasy without overload. My meditations are now infused with ecstasy. Yogani suggests we know when we are ready. I sense I am ready but wonder if others have found the progression to stage 2 frought with energetic overload. |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2021 : 5:08:54 PM
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Hi interpaul,
for me the transition to stage two took a few weeks from somehow getting up there to staying there comfortable. In my case this was a good time to accustom as well.
I have also chosen to not do any cutting and it took about 1,5 years. I used to practice mainly during walks as this adds a grounding component to the practice.
At the time I did not know about AYP and self pacing. I remember the time was accompanied by many new experiences and it surely felt a bit like being born again. My life changed in a good way, as I knew I could always manage and control my mind. In any situation if I put my tongue back up I would get calm and feel high.
I would suggest you to just go for it if you feel ready to go. It is something new to explore. Explore it and enjoy it. You will feel what is good for you and where it becomes too much. I often took it as an indicator how dry and sensitive or wet and comfortable it is up there to go into kechari or not. |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2021 : 01:02:56 AM
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| lightandlove, Thanks for sharing your experience, much appreciated. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2021 : 06:14:43 AM
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Dear Interpaul,
I personally do not practice Kechari in the manner given by AYP but from the different reports, you are about to ramp up the ecstatic aspect - is that wise in view of your constant anxious feelings about addiction to ecstasy? Or is it more "let me rush to more?" But that too will plateau after the initial rush.
Of course, you are the best judge on your state of readiness.
Sey 
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2021 : 1:34:24 PM
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| So many things happened so fast in the last decade that it is hard to say if only kechari triggered them all. Probably not? Kechari has immediately supported maintaining awareness at all times, including sleep. It has never gone away, but it did change. The walls separating the inner and outer, the conscious and unconscious, the small self and the world blew away. Unbounded awareness has infinite energy. There has been discomfort integrating - living in this reality, and great joy and bliss. As lightandlove put it, it is like being born again. Pure bliss consciousness is born in this location, awakened to itself. No metaphors here, just describing something that has no words to be described. |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2021 : 6:26:58 PM
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Sey, Thank you for cutting to the heart of the matter. Yes, I fundamentally am torn between the understanding the path forward does necessitate further transformation of pranic energy, i.e. the ecstatic part (separate from the inner silence). My fear of addiction and pleasure seeking makes this path a hard one for me. I do sense the intensity of energy this practice already generates with my tongue at the boundary. Each additional practice has triggered this fear. SBP definitely made me worry about the risks of addiction to pleasure. Although that practice is smoother now, there is no question that pleasure remains intoxicating and now infuses my meditations. I am certainly comfortable with taking my time with this but it does raise a broader question that you've heard again and again on this forum, i.e. is this really a path to enlightenment or is this just a super charged pleasure practice. It is difficult for me to,in a deep way, know the answer. It is not a question people who don't practice AYP can even comprehend. I haven't given up on these practices as Yogani's promises have repeatedly come true. This suggests to me this is a real path.
Blanche, Your description reinforces Yogani's message. These types of descriptions draw me in. Who wouldn't want to experience unbounded awarenss? I am curious when you say "there has been discomfort integrating" if you'd be open to sharing a little more as I sense that comment points to what I am concerned about. |
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alain
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2021 : 6:54:58 PM
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There is a middle way between stage 4 and not doing kechari at all. After all what you do in kechari is stimulation of the sweet spot in the throat, there is another way to achieve that, with a bit of practice you can get it done with your breath. I have done it that way for years with results comparable to what Yogani described. Give it a try it's easy and risk free.
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2021 : 1:15:42 PM
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Hi Interpaul,
Indeed, this is a path of bliss. There seems to be no good way around it - sooner or later we have to come to terms with this. It seems that the reality is made this way - the rishis talk about ananda maya kosha, the layer of bliss that cover our true nature. It is here, all the time, and the experience of it seems to trigger deep healing. The fear of the addictive power of pleasure may be something else. The root of all fears is the fear of dying - and at some point this fear has to be addressed. Addiction is a signal that some deep need is not fulfilled - and there are layers of exploration. Of course, an addiction to spiritual practices may be quite beneficial.
As you noticed, kechari does up the intensity of energy - but we also seem to adapt to very fast. What is new and maybe uncomfortable one day, it becomes the baseline after a while, and then it goes up again. Accepting and staying open to what comes our way makes things easier, while turning away and avoiding makes things difficult.
It is not the energy that creates the problem, but the resistance. Each of us has to solve our own puzzle. The intimate and blissful experience of meditation familiar over decades of practice transformed here at some point in an unbounded state with unlimited energy. There are no good words to describe it. It feels like an endless fall backwards - which takes trust and is exhilarating - and then the potential energy seems to have no limits. It is everything - and what is it? The puzzle shifted from asking for an action to asking for a transformation in being.
When it comes to kechari, just like other yoga practices, the practice self-regulates. For some of us, there is little interest in kechari. There is certainly a path without kechari, even though at some point we may find that the tongue gets stuck to the roof of the mouth. It we practice kechari and the experience is uncomfortable, we will probably limit it or skip it for a while. When the nervous system is clear enough, the interest in practicing kechari may reignite.
The only path is forward and inward-outward.  |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2021 : 4:33:04 PM
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| Blanche, Thank you for taking the time to answer my question so thoughtfully and with such helpful information. I agree with how you've layed this out, i.e. "addiction may be something else". It is an interesting idea that all fear ultimately is the fear of dying. That is something I need to sit with. I will also check on ananda maya kosha as I'm not familiar with that. I have realized my fear mostly comes from early childhood abandonment issues and unhealthy compensation. AYP has really helped me to get past some of biggest hurdles. As you say the only path is forward and inward-outward. This along with the message "blis, There seems to be no good way around it...." is something Christi has said and is embedded in Yogani's teachings. To accept reality is really made up of this blissful state with endless energy is really quite remarkable, and a true gift. I do appreciate your support over the last couple years. It still amazes me I've found my path in a virtual spiritual world (although made up of very real people such as yourself). |
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Walter
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2021 : 11:11:15 PM
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Hello again, Interpaul. Thank you for introducing this topic. While it is beyond my experience and knowledge to be able to comment authoritatively on your ‘problem’ (if it be such), it does not seem to me to be a bad thing if your practice leads to happiness and joy which you can radiate to others, as indicated to be the case in some of your other posts. I suppose it may depend upon what you attribute the source (or Source) of this blessing to be, and your relation of your everyday self to it. And what constitutes a healthy ‘addiction’, relative to an unhealthy one.
At risk of seeming to usurp your post in my own interests, I wonder if I, too, may use it to seek advice on the same topic? In my own practice, having experienced so much ecstatic energy flow with kechari only at level 1, it didn’t seem necessary or perhaps even advisable to seek to progress to higher levels. Also, as pointed out by Alain, the breath alone may well be able to produce the same (or similar) effect, and certainly this is very powerful in my case. But not wanting the sensual experience of more ecstatic conductivity ‘on tap’, so to speak, just for its own sake, I don’t often avail myself of this potentiality. My wish seems to be only for an inner peace, with my lower self completely silent and replaced with unobscured Self - pure consciousness. Presumably, this is what is meant by sat chit ananda. If not, I would welcome correction. Sometimes I feel close, but deeper and more abiding Union with the Source continually being sought. Would progression to higher levels of kechari assist in this respect, I wonder? From your Yogani quotation, it would certainly seem so. Comments would be very welcome.
As always, my best wishes to you, Interpaul. I much enjoy and benefit from our exchanges.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2021 : 05:49:28 AM
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Dear Walter,
I think you have hit the nail on the head.
Sey |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2021 : 6:22:51 PM
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Walter, Thank you for your follow up question and interesting framing of my "problem". It does seem odd I would be anxious about having taken on practices that point in the direction of "24/7 ecstatic bliss" only to be surprised and fearful when it starts to manifest. When you ask what I attribute the "source" of this blessing, that really got me thinking. I've been somewhat surprised I feel like a minority voice on this forum who worry about such things. In those moments when I allow fear to flow through my thoughts I imagine this forum composed of people who have all implicitly agreed to indulge in this way without regard for risk. Kind of the way people in bars mostly accept everyone else is there to indulge to various levels of intoxication(some very unhealthy). I believe this fear was fueled by the leap of faith asked of the reader to accept commiting to Yogani's teachings without knowing anything about him and having to commit to the practices consistently twice daily for a significant amount of time to determine their value.
I had an earlier post in which I mentioned the concept of hedonic adaptation, the way the brain tries to return to a set point. We are mostly wired to not have ever expanding pleasure. There are many examples of people seeking increasing pleasure from drugs ultimately resulting in desensitization requiring stronger drugs and higher doses. Heroine addiction is the classic example of this tragic path. Yogani responded to my post acknowledging we do have adaptation to this increasing pleasure, with the acknowledgement we just live at a different set point (i.e 24/7 ecstatic bliss). My fear comes from the worry these increasing pleasures will prompt me to seek even more pleasure. Having taped into the pleasure center in my brain by simply moving my attention up my spine seems potentially more dangerous than any drug as it is available 24/7. The final phase of this path, when unity occurs and there is outpouring of divine love is the destination I seek, yet, in the throws of intense mind numbing ectasy I fear I will end up lying in bed in a state of perpetual ecstatic withdrawl if left to my base nature.
Blanche pointed out above that all fear is the fear of death. I'm not sure how to integrate that with my fear of ecstatic withdrawl. Fear of death likely leads to addictive behaviors that numb the mind of the anxiety inherent in existential threat. Fear of pursuing and experiencing pleasure seems like something else. Maybe it goes back to your question about the "source". I am not Christian and don't believe in the devil but maybe there is a sense of alligning with malevolent energies in pursuit of pleasure.
In response to your sharing of your personal path Walter, it sounds like you are in a better place seaking bliss and minimizing the ecstatic. It is in hearing your story and others where my return to my fear of addiction to pleasure swells. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2021 : 05:23:15 AM
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Dear Interpaul,
Being a little further along the path, I am now able to recognize fear for what it is - just the same movement of energy in Stillness, same as love. While my physical body cringes and hurts when feeling fear, I can still see through the illusion. So, have a go at looking at this emotion called "fear" objectively (witness).
Btw. I think all Fears are fear of being Alone rather than fear of death. And yes, we are Alone and look what we went to great lengths to do - create complex illusions and stories to forget that we are Alone. 
Also note that while we naturally sell "24/7 ecstatic bliss", there is a LOT of fear involved in the process of purification. We are dealing with the whole world system - upper realms, our universe and lower realms. You cannot be enlightened by climbing up the higher centres only, you have to clear the lower centres where Fear sits as well.
Sey
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k.cherry
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2021 : 6:39:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
You cannot be enlightened by climbing up the higher centres only, you have to clear the lower centres where Fear sits as well.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2021 : 11:10:41 PM
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quote:
I had an earlier post in which I mentioned the concept of hedonic adaptation, the way the brain tries to return to a set point. We are mostly wired to not have ever expanding pleasure. There are many examples of people seeking increasing pleasure from drugs ultimately resulting in desensitization requiring stronger drugs and higher doses. Heroine addiction is the classic example of this tragic path. Yogani responded to my post acknowledging we do have adaptation to this increasing pleasure, with the acknowledgement we just live at a different set point (i.e 24/7 ecstatic bliss). My fear comes from the worry these increasing pleasures will prompt me to seek even more pleasure. Having taped into the pleasure center in my brain by simply moving my attention up my spine seems potentially more dangerous than any drug as it is available 24/7. The final phase of this path, when unity occurs and there is outpouring of divine love is the destination I seek, yet, in the throws of intense mind numbing ectasy I fear I will end up lying in bed in a state of perpetual ecstatic withdrawl if left to my base nature.
Hi InterPaul,
This is something that has come up before and has been addressed from different angles in other threads. I think essentially you are making assumptions about what could happen, based on things that may seem similar, but actually are not. For example, it is easy to assume that someone on the spiritual path who experiences ecstasy, will always want more of it and in greater quantities. But in fact, that is not what happens in practice. In practice, there is a stage on the path where people begin to wonder if this is all there is to the spiritual life? If it is really only about attaining a permanent state of ecstasy in the body. In fact, at this stage, this ecstasy can even be seen as an obstacle to whatever is beyond it. So, we do end up yearning for more, but not more ecstasy. There is something within us that is calling us home, and there is a natural knowing, that this cannot be it.
And so, then we begin practicing even more sincerely, but not for more ecstasy, but instead for greater peace, bliss and equanimity. Even this is not the final resting place though. Even when bliss is well established, there is a stage where we begin to think: "Is this all there is to the spiritual life?". We intuitively know that even peace and bliss are not where we are being called to. It is not the final destination. And so we intensify our practice again, and move beyond these states, into the states of divine love. Even that is not a final resting place, as divine love is always wanting to move beyond itself, to help others in the world. This can be easily seen if we study the lives of saints. They are constantly working to help others. And this is why.
So, there isn't a place where this process ends. We are always being called to more. If someone tells you that there is a final resting place, then they have simply become stuck somewhere, mistaking a temporary plateau for a summit.
But ecstasy is left behind at a certain stage on the path, being replaced by other things. This is not to say that people do not have difficulties with addiction to ecstasy. Some do from time to time. It is one of many attachments that can arise on the path. But if we have a regular and effective practice, then we can navigate through whatever obstacles arise, and move beyond them.
You could ask: "How can we know all of this?". The answer to that is that we are not the first people who have walked the spiritual path. People have been doing this for thousands of years, and have been reporting their experiences on the path for the same amount of time. People were writing about ecstasy 2,500 years ago and we still have the texts. And ecstasy was described even then, as one of the factors of enlightenment, not as a hindrance, or a danger. And that was by the original shramanas of Northern India, who were possibly amongst the first practising yogis.
If you are concerned about ecstasy as an aspect of the path to enlightenment, my advice would be to study the lives of saints. Find out about how they lived, what they practiced, and what they went through on the spiritual journey. You may find that there are some common themes that come up again and again, with ecstasy, being one of them.
Christi |
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Walter
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2021 : 2:08:38 PM
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Interpaul. I had prepared the below off-line. When I logged on here,I saw Christi's reply which is so all-embracing that anything else seems superfluous. Nevertheless, there may still be aspects of interest and pertinent to your situation, so I'm posting my contribution anyway.
Your posts here on this present topic raise a range of issues, but the main immediate concern is undoubtedly your well being. Personally, I believe you are worrying unnecessarily, but it is eminently sensible to be wary and to seek expert advice from seasoned yogis with experience in addressing such specific concerns. I must leave it to others in this respect.
One thing I do feel pretty sure about, however, is that you should have little fear of a substance abuse-like addiction. If you were indeed to experience a form of ‘addiction’ to Kundalini-induced ecstasy, I believe this would be more of a ‘psychological-’ or ‘behavioral-dependency’, rather like over-indulging in chocolate or sex or gambling or the like, best treated by a change in your thinking about it. Yes, brain chemistry would be expected to be temporarily affected, but stemming from the ‘natural’ neurophysiological effects of kundalini awakening, just like any neurophysiological actions in the body, not the other way round, as in substance-abuse, where chemicals (addictive narcotic drugs) themselves alter brain chemistry, longer term and more drastically so, and this secondarily affects neurophysiological processes.
It seems to me that both your body and your usual mind (together constituting your lower self) were not sufficiently prepared for this onslaught of pleasure, thereby continually wanting more of it, and fearing losing it. Sey suggests, and I strongly support, that you witness your fear; I would even go further and suggest you witness the ecstatic physical and emotional feelings during their manifestation. Witnessing, of course, constitutes a shift from self, where both desire and fear are generated, towards Self, which is free from all attributes of self, and the realisation of which I take to be the real objective of AYP. Witnessing any aspect of one’s thoughts, feelings or behaviour, by releasing us from identification with it, lessens its potency to affect our everyday life.
But I’m sure you already know all this; it’s just a matter of remembering it. For me the objective has always been ‘fulfillment’, rather than ecstasy, but the latter can only be welcomed as a bonus, so long as not regarded as a sufficient objective in itself. I don’t think you should ever fear losing it; the ability to contact it, once learned, will always be available. The only thing needed is a willingness to detach a little from it in pursuit of the higher goal.
PS. I hope none of this conflicts with Christi's profound advice.
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2021 : 6:38:42 PM
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Interesting discussion. There are a number of things worth mentioning: ecstasy is part of the path, and there are at least two different forms of ecstasy: glee/joy ecstasy and rapture ecstasy (no-self); the attention amplifies experiences; deep meditation clears the mind to see beyond it.
I have written in the forum a couple of times about my experiment of trying to keep pleasure out of meditation, so I apologize to anyone who reads about this again. I have been enthusiastically meditating for 28 years. Pleasure rises right away, but it has never occurred to me that I was addicted to “meditative pleasure.” Some years ago, I was talking with a friend, and she told me: “Of course you meditate all the time since you feel so much pleasure.” This made me wonder if there was an addiction to the pleasure of meditation and I was just fooling myself following this path. Thus, for the next two months, every time when the pleasure arose in meditation, I would stop and would start the meditation again. And again, and again. In all this time there were no states of samadhi and not even deep states of meditation. I have stopped this nonsense experiment with the conclusion that pleasure growing to glee, joy, and ecstasy is the gate to deeper states of meditation.
This initial intense, energetic pleasure that comes up in mediation at the beginning is different than the intense rapture ecstasy before experiences of union or after the permanent union with the Divine, when the individual self is dissolved. It is a gift bestowed on us, it is pure grace. It “comes over us.”
Our attention amplifies our experiences. Whatever gets our attention grows. Kundalini energy rises during yoga practices, and this is just the fuel for our car – or rocket. Is it worth paying so much attention to the fuel? It makes me wonder if there may be a misunderstanding here due to the instruction to not get stuck on experiences, and the instruction regarding “fuzzy mantra.” Do-not-get-stuck-on-experiences could be interpreted as “do not pay attention” during meditation, and “do not pay attention to experiences” outside meditation. Then, either the attention becomes dull, or the attention focuses on kundalini and amplifies the experiences, triggering possible overload. Experiences in meditation and outside meditation are not a final destination, but they are marks/sign posts in the spiritual journey. Also, an alert attention during meditation will notice a progression of meditative states to samadhi, a road that can be followed.
Mantra-becomes-fuzzy may be misunderstood as “mind becomes fuzzy” when in fact it means that the mantra starts to repeat by itself, back to back, and refines into a vibration, which goes on all the time, even during sleep.
The attention is fully alert in meditation and this state only increases. Attention directed toward the mind and the rest of inner function as well as toward the rest of our life grows self-knowing - not sure about a final point, but Patanjali talks about an end to the knowing, writing that “because knowledge is infinite when all obstructing impurities are removed, little remains to be known.” May we all get there, my friends. |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2021 : 10:37:30 PM
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First of all I want to thank everyone for being so supportive of me on this issue for so long. It may seem a bit silly or crazy how much I worry about this issue. AYP has given me a new direction in life specifically because it has allowed me a way to direct these pranic energies in a much healthier way than I had for many decades. Having relied on pleasure as almost a sedative to manage anxiety for so many years, choosing to harness these energies for spiritual growth has always left me with some concern, yet, I've sensed from the beginning, this is the best path forward for me.
Sey, You bring up some excellent points. I have observed my blissful states as a witness and it is clear to me that feels like home. Devoid of any negativity. The ecstatic states are equally soothing and rich. I have come to understand the fear stems from guilt and shame about normal sexual needs. I am working to release these thought patterns that served some role in the past but don't serve me anymore.
Christi, As always your kind efforts to give more details of the path forward. I appreciate you calling attention to the assumptions I make. Given how tight time is for me I'd be interested in any recommendation you have of a book or books that you've found particularly helpful related to the lives of saints.
Walter, Your perspective is also much appreciated. I agree I was likely unprepared for the intensity of the experience I had early on and this triggered a great deal of fear.
Blanche, I greatly appreciate you sharing your personal experiences, and where you are now, as that helps me gain some perspective on my journey. I feel like a kid who fell off the horse and all the farm hands came over, brushed me off and helped me back on the horse. I'm ready to continue down this path feeling less lonely and safer. |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2021 : 7:19:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
Having relied on pleasure as almost a sedative to manage anxiety for so many years, choosing to harness these energies for spiritual growth has always left me with some concern, yet, I've sensed from the beginning, this is the best path forward for me.
Hi Interpaul,
I think you are on something. It does seem that this pleasurable state that arises in meditation has something to do with releasing the deep tensions in the nervous system. It feels almost like the body and the mind have to be blissed out to fully relax and allow the meditation to work. This intense pleasure is like an anesthetic that allows the meditation to work on the “knots” present in different layers of our being. Surrendering, letting go of any illusion of control, and letting go of any expectations seem to be the best we can do at this stage.
Thus, the moment we relax in meditation, pleasure arises – and any psychological issues that we have (or maybe only I have) come up, too. All the things that are not seen, that are not acknowledged, that are not processes come now up to attention. Everything has to be processed, by talking with a friend or a therapist, keeping a journal, etc. However, when these issues come up during meditation, the best thing is to let go and surrender to the process of meditation. Enjoy the pleasurable state – it is there for a reason. As you continue to meditate, the intense physical and emotional pleasure starts to subside and transforms in a deep happiness and contentment which seems to have a healing quality. Deep states of samadhi and advanced states on this path require a healthy mind-body-ego. There is a process of healing and restructuring that goes on as we meditate, preparing the ground for a transformation.
There is a noticeable difference between an unhealthy addictive pleasure and a healing pleasurable state: the first is draining, the second comes with a sense of renewal.
There are many books that talk about the ecstasy on the spiritual path, such as The Interior Castle by St. Teresa de Avila. Philokalia - Writings on the Prayer of the Heart, The Way of a Pilgrim, and The Pilgrim Continues on His Way.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2021 : 4:03:04 PM
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Hi InterPaul,
Some good suggestions from Blanche. You could also study the lives of St. Francis of Assisi, Yogananda, Krishnamurti, Sri Anandamayi Ma, Sri Mata Amritanandamayi, Chaitanya, Milarepa, Ramana Maharshi, Krishna and Neem Karoli Baba. All of these teachers spend long periods of time caught up in states of ecstasy.
I am afraid I cannot help you out with book titles, as it was many years ago that I was studying these things, and I simply don't remember.
Christi |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2021 : 02:23:06 AM
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Blanche, Thank you for sharing this additional perspective and the recommendations.
Christi, Thank you for this list. I am sure I can find some interesting readings to dig deeper. |
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Yogabuzz108
United Kingdom
75 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2021 : 02:09:36 AM
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Om Interpaul,
Yeah, the mind is a funny thing hay...
Being human we think that we are conscious because we have judgment, discrimination and choice, but we are only partly conscious, the other part of us is animal; so, the animal part of our nature is what is referred to as 'ego' in yoga, and the 'mind' (little mind, ego) is a product of our animalistic nature; so what does this actually mean? Well, the ego is what keeps us alive, it is the identification of separation and as such, it tells you to protect yourself, feather your nest, the extreme example of this can be seen in the modern billionaires and millionaires, that amass wealth, yet don't do anything to help make life better for others; the reason for this is complete absorption in the identification of separation (ego), however, economics is a funny thing, someone can only be (financially) wealthy, if someone else is poor (otherwise, how would you know the difference)... all part of the delusion, anyway I'm digressing so...
So, the egos purpose is to provide an existence for itself to exist (self preservation/protection), so naturally (it) fears death, now, because the ego is currently intertwined within us, it can sometimes be difficult to decipher what is truth and what Is not. As consciousness expands within us, we become aware of more than we were aware of before, and this can be difficult (to experience).
I understand your doubts, fears and apprehension Interpaul, its a normal and healthy product of development, it's all part of the dissolution process, what we used to think was real, isn't, so how do we know if what we are experiencing now is real? Well only you can find the answer to that one...
And yes, it is possible to become overly absorbed in any one of our bodies, however like christi says, it has a way of self correction, eventually we will become used to the feeling of the body we are lost in and get bored, and realise that it wasn't what we are looking for.
'Yogananda' (once) described the state of complete absorption as 'unending and ever new', no boredom there, so what does unending and ever new feel like, well, maybe I'll expand on this another time.
I would be inclined to say that, your fear of becoming addicted to one of your bodies, is more detrimental to your progression than the very thing you are worrying about. |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2021 : 5:52:28 PM
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| Yogabuzz108, Thank you for sharing your perspective. You have covered a lot of territory here and I appreciate your encouragement. Your last line got my attention as it reminded me of a response I heard, I believe from Sunyata or Blanche to a prior post, suggesting what we fear is not just a concept but how our brain really thinks things are. I am very aware of the unhealthy aspect of fear. I recently went into my fear and gave it attention. I realized it is a voice in my head trying to protect me from actions which it perceives are harmful. I acknowledged it is based on some experiences in my life that did result in harm. Reframing fear as a protective voice and making intention to honor what it has to communicate, take it seriously, and then release it, Samyama style, seemed to make a difference for me. |
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Yogabuzz108
United Kingdom
75 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2022 : 01:16:43 AM
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I'm grateful for you bringing up this topic as I have been pondering a similar question myself...
My question is...
How do we know what is real when our perception of reality is repeatedly changing ie. Each and every time we think we have found some level of understanding, we transition to a place beyond where we were, and realise that what we thought was real wasn't...
Ie. Any time we try to attach to an idea of what we perceive as being constant we are shown that it's not.
And with this in mind, how do we know when we are in a position to share what we have, when we are aware of what we don't know...
And if we are in a position to envelop others into the expansion of our heart energy, and it returns an ever increasing outpouring of love for the giver and the receiver, is that egoic or... |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2022 : 07:38:56 AM
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Hi Yogabuzz,
These are all great questions. Basically, in yoga, we use inner silence (samadhi) as the guide, or measure, of what is real and what is not real. So, as we cultivate inner silence, we start to see things that we previously thought were real, falling away. As one spiritual teacher put it: "Inner silence is a great truth barometer. If it does not exist when the mind is silent, then it does not exist."
And there are deeper and deeper layers of inner silence, or deeper and deeper layers of samadhi. So, we can find that what we believe to be true at a certain stage, turns out to be just a plateau on the journey up the mountain, and there are higher peaks beyond it. So, there is no resting place, or final destination where we can say: "Ah, now I have made it. Now I know what is real". Instead what happens is that the person walking the path begins to look more transparent, and so does the path, and the mountain we are climbing. So, even these things do not survive the truth test. They do not exists when the mind is silent. In truth, there is no seeker, there is no path and there is no destination. There is no mountain.
The questions themselves, also do not survive the truth test. The questions about what is real or not real, or what is true or not true, do not exist when the mind is silent. So, if these questions still exist, then that is an indication to meditate, to go deeper into samadhi. And it is a combination of meditation, samyama and self-inquiry that leads to the questions becoming dissolved. This state, where there is no longer any process of discrimination between the real and the unreal, is called vairagya. Then we can share our heart freely without any concern. If sharing your heart is something that concerns you, then it could be best to focus more on meditation, on samyama, and on self-inquiry practice, for the time being, until you reach the point where you can see clearly that there is no giver or receiver, and there never was.
Christi
p.s. This will be the topic of a 4-day online AYP retreat that I will be leading during February looking at the stages of awakening on the spiritual path. Details are here |
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Yogabuzz108
United Kingdom
75 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2022 : 07:05:01 AM
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Christi!
You have provided me with the answer that I started to doubt even existed...
Thank you!
Oh, and I would love to join the 4 day course, however I don't get home from work until 18:00, will you be running it again at some point that will be in the evening?
Yogabuzz |
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