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 Jnana Yoga/Self-Inquiry - Advaita (Non-Duality)
 Oldest appearance of 'expression and The Expressed
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JeffB

Finland
5 Posts

Posted - May 04 2021 :  09:27:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Namaste,

Just joined. thanks in advance!:)

Can you please tell when and where for the first time there is a reference to the terms expression and The Expressed ?

Christi

United Kingdom
3871 Posts

Posted - May 04 2021 :  1:09:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

Welcome to the forums!

Can you give an example of where you have seen these terms used in yoga?


Christi
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JeffB

Finland
5 Posts

Posted - May 04 2021 :  1:36:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,
In certain Advaita Vedanta texts. Specifically it referred to a musical expression in Nada Brahma, and the Expressed is Atma.

( early in the 20th century de saussure formed the terms signifier and signified, and I was wondering if he was aware that these notions existed long before his modern linguistics theory )

quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Jeff,

Welcome to the forums!

Can you give an example of where you have seen these terms used in yoga?


Christi

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Christi

United Kingdom
3871 Posts

Posted - May 04 2021 :  5:27:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

So, the word "signifier" would correspond with "expressor" and would be "vacaka" in Sanskrit. The "signified" or the "expressed" would be "vacya" in Sanskrit.

In the Upanishads the vacaka and vacya are considered to be inseparable and one. The same idea is present in the Bhagavad Gita. In the Upanishads there are lines that are considered to be Mahavakyas, or "great sayings" which are all based on the concept of vacya-vacaka. An example would be "Ayam atman brahman" - "the individual self is the ultimate self". In other words, the expressor is the expressed, the seer is the seen and so on.

These Mahavakyas are found in all four Vedas and the oldest Veda dates to between 1500 BCE and 1000 BCE.


Christi

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JeffB

Finland
5 Posts

Posted - May 05 2021 :  08:28:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much Christi.
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JeffB

Finland
5 Posts

Posted - May 06 2021 :  10:24:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

Please, what about 'simple' objects such as the signifier 'chair' and its signified ? that is what I actually meant to ask

Not about the Higher notions of the Atman Is Brahman, the Seer is the seen.

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Christi

United Kingdom
3871 Posts

Posted - May 06 2021 :  11:53:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

The seer and the seen, would include simple objects such as chairs.


Christi
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JeffB

Finland
5 Posts

Posted - May 06 2021 :  1:42:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

I am not sure I understood what you meant;

If you meant that the seen can be anything including a chair, this is clear. If on the other hand you meant that since all perceived objects are nothing but Atma, the Seer and the chair have the same Real nature, this is clear too.

But, my wondering is on a linguistics level, and there, I can't see the parallel between the seer (the one who observes, not just any 'lifeless' signifier) and a signifier such as 'chair'
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Christi

United Kingdom
3871 Posts

Posted - May 06 2021 :  3:39:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

The seen can be anything including a chair, or a river, or a mountain, or a thought, idea, memory, or a word. So a chair is a part of prakriti, or manifest nature, just as a mountain is, or a human body, or the idea of a chair, or the word "chair". So, when we say "there is the chair", there is the observer (the seer), the idea (manifest in buddhi), the word ("chair"), signifying the object and manifest in manas, and then the object (the chair). All these things appear on the screen of consciousness and appear within awareness and are fundamentally manifestations of the same thing. You could call it purusha-prakriti, or emptiness dancing, or with one word, Brahman. This is the essence of Vedanta and of the Upanishads and of the Bhagavad Gita.

You may find this lesson useful:

Lesson 350 - Practices for Moving Beyond the Witness Stage


Christi
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