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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1401 Posts

Posted - Feb 17 2021 :  11:31:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
For a while now, I have been trying to understand what thoughts are, where they originate, even their purpose.

Do they originate from consciousness or from mind?

Putting aside rational thinking required to perform a task etc.. ; random thoughts just pop up in the mind apparently from nowhere. Some are not even my thoughts. Watch a thought emerge and it comes out of nothingness; try to see what it is made of and again nothingness... unless emotionally charged, then you can see the energy.
Those stray thoughts - Who/What wills them into being?

What the hell are thoughts and really, what purpose do they serve?


Sey

Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 19 2021 11:12:53 AM

BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1723 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2021 :  08:12:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Sey
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Putting aside rational thinking required to perform a task etc.. ; random thoughts just pop up in the mind apparently from nowhere.


Isn't that what thinking is supposed to do? I.e. scan for potentially useful things that it might need to deal with?
It's a bit like a conscientious servant: "Do you want me to do this? Do you want me to do that?" And the answer sometimes is "That will be fine, no need to pick that one up, thank you." Sometimes however the things it flags up are useful, even though they seem to come up from nowhere.
In short, built in functionally. I think it's meant to be a self-starter - my take on it at least.

I hope you're well
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interpaul

USA
376 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2021 :  12:09:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Sey, I have always had an interest in neuroscience. There are a lot of really interesting experiments published shedding some light on these issues. The split brain studies I find particularly telling. Cutting the corpus collosum separates the right and left brains significantly. Since the left brain has the speech centers, damage to the left brain results in aphasia. This is further broken down into people who can't understand language and those who can't express it. It isn't clear to me if people with aphasia don't hear voices in their heads but I would expect not. In the split brain studies they will often have people shown objects to the left eye (seen by the right brain) and they are unable to verbalize what they see. There are all sorts of interesting deficits that emerge from various studies like these and brain tumors that can shed some light on how consciousness is constructed. Clearly science has a reductionistic mindset in looking at these complex human experiences. Ultimately consciousness is poorly understood. I like the books from the late Oliver Sachs, whose books such as The man who mistook his wife for a hat, make you think.
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zamolxes

Romania
92 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2021 :  3:22:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Sey, I recall that you've asked this one before, and maybe there's not gonna be am answer now either

There's this book called "Iona" written by Marin Sorescu from my country that has turned into a theater play. In this story, there's a single character, a fisherman that throughout the play he only talks with himself. At the beginning he faces a small aquarium with little fishes, and behind him lays a huge mouth ready to eat him. Unaware of it, he asks himself questions in his loneliness, and readily answers them, pondering on the lack of echo of his voice or at his idiocracy of talking alone.

Throughout the play, he finds himself inside a whale's belly, trapped from freedom, and in there continues to ponder on the nature of humanity and on the many issues that arise in one's mind. After some time, he begins a search for freedom, often fighting himself or the place he finds himself caged into. At the end of the play, he manages to get out of the whale's belly only to realize, as he gazes at the sky, that he is not free. That he is caged by everything around him, by the earth, the sky. By his mind and body, and so he stabs himself, realizing the only way to freedom is inwardly, away from his voice that so much burdened him.

And while I don't recall exactly the many metaphors or the story per se, only now do I realize what a masterpiece it was, seeing the little fishes as thoughts, and the whale as the mind. And all the little details throughout the story. I recomend it for everyone. And although this doesn't answer the question of what thoughts are, for the thought itself of wanting to understand what it itself is made of cannot quite understand, seen from a broader view, through metaphors or philosophy we can grasp a little of their place in consciousness.

A more scientific way that comes to mind, would be that the mind is one of intelligence's manifestations. That first appears physically as the nervous system, and that through the neurons creates this holographic interface that creates the mind and relays information from all over.. i guess? And this mind, relays information from where consciousness is directed, perhaps thoughts are the way the brain is wired, piecing pieces together from here and there, that for a practitioner rooted in silence would come as coming from nowhere, and as shadows, their source and themselves disappear when the light of consciousness is directed towards them.

Or it may be the voice of our human identity, that evolved from sensations and intentions as we understood more and more about life, and that began to grow exponentially when we found comfort, fed by our sense of pleasure and pain. Anyways, better to feel life than to think thoughts, or to feel thoughts than to think life, because as we evolve, intelligence seems to me to start understanding everything without subtitles, and with no need to record memories of what is experienced.

Peace
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1401 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2021 :  02:01:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I am asking this question from a non-dual point of view. When there is no movement of mind, I am still aware of this reality and I respond appropriately to it but I don't stop to think about it. I may even notice thoughts (as subtle objects without substance) but still not thinking/ mind not moving with the thought.
Do these thoughts originate from the limited mind or from expanded Consciousness?

My other big question is the matter of WILL. What is this force that brought about creation of this realm? that brings about human daily creations? From where does it originate?




Sey

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Charliedog

1623 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2021 :  04:28:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
From non-dual point of view, we are not two....

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maheswari

Lebanon
2516 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2021 :  04:30:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Sey
i hope this videos helps for both the source of thoughts and free will
https://non-duality.rupertspira.com...ts-come-from
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1723 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2021 :  07:30:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

I am asking this question from a non-dual point of view.


I don't see how this might be possible... There is no question in non-duality.
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog

From non-dual point of view, we are not two....


Exactly. There is nobody who can ask that is separate from the thing you're asking about.

Is this the mind trying to understand non-duality? I don't think it can. It just gets tied up in knots.

Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Feb 19 2021 07:32:29 AM
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maheswari

Lebanon
2516 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2021 :  11:10:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello all
There is "no two answers" are non relational stuff said by the one saying those sentences also these enigmatic answers are not understood by the one asking those questions
In advaita the teacher finds where you are lost in the forest then guides you back through understanding and analysis

Edited by - maheswari on Feb 19 2021 11:11:59 AM
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AYPforum

351 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2021 :  11:12:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1401 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2021 :  11:48:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
It is true when you are in the non-dual state the question does not arise. Let’s move rather to the borderline state between where you can observe thoughts float by just like you can observe the landscape which has not disappeared, not as separate from you but you - if that would make you more comfortable

Question: In what state am I when I look for my felt sense of “I”, my answer is that - “That” meaning Reality? Yogani talks about this somewhere how we can be in this dual realm and still ‘see’ our non-dual nature.

Thanks Maheswari for the talk by Rupert - I believe I have seen this one.


Sey



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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1723 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2021 :  6:22:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Question: In what state am I when I look for my felt sense of “I”, my answer is that - “That” meaning Reality?


Looks like samadhi coexisting with thoughts. The thinking is doing what is accustomed to do, i.e. asking questions about and assigning a label to the unity experience. Based on my experience of this state, I'd say that thoughts feel like blips on a background of silence. Not much appetite for thinking, just the mind kicking in briefly and dropping it pretty quickly. It sort of knows it's not going to 'get its arms round this one' so to speak, and it keeps its peace about it.

The one that bugs this mind here (I guess there is a variety of bugs out there ) is why the awareness seems to be anchored on this body. The awareness floats above and around it. Then why does it keep being connected to this body? Why not to another? Why to any body at all? This question does nag me occasionally, but I know I won't get an answer to it. Had I thought an answer would be possible, I would have asked it in this forum a long time ago.

Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Feb 20 2021 11:00:33 AM
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1401 Posts

Posted - Feb 20 2021 :  03:19:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I thought about it some more and may be making some headway - Thoughts (like the mantra I AM) are ascribed a vibration; a sound vibration require a medium to move in and we can perceive the vibration of the thought I AM at grosser level. It moves energy within us. But as it refines; as we merge with the mantra it becomes Nothingness and only Light can travel within a vacuum. So refined thoughts arising out of a vacuum is light but what causes it to arise? When light which could not be perceived in the vacuum of space hits an object such as a planet, it can suddenly be seen.
So are thoughts just floating around in the vacuum of inner space? What attracts a specific thought? Are we a grosser /denser form and we attract thoughts through gravitational force?

BR - your question is a good one; thanks for giving me something else to try and puzzle out


Sey

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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1723 Posts

Posted - Feb 20 2021 :  03:59:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
I thought about it some more and may be making some headway - Thoughts (like the mantra I AM) are ascribed a vibration; a sound vibration require a medium to move in and we can perceive the vibration of the thought I AM at grosser level. It moves energy within us. But as it refines; as we merge with the mantra it becomes Nothingness and only Light can travel within a vacuum. So refined thoughts arising out of a vacuum is light but what causes it to arise? When light which could not be perceived in the vacuum of space hits an object such as a planet, it can suddenly be seen.
So are thoughts just floating around in the vacuum of inner space? What attracts a specific thought? Are we a grosser /denser form and we attract thoughts through gravitational force?

If that makes you happy, why not?

quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
thanks for giving me something else to try and puzzle out

Great! No need to thank me. I'll give you an answer to it that I think is as good as any you might find: 'It is what it is.'

Take care
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interpaul

USA
376 Posts

Posted - Feb 20 2021 :  11:25:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
the one that bugs this mind here (I guess there is a variety of bugs out there ) is why the awareness seems to be anchored on this body. The awareness floats above and around it. Then why does it keep being connected to this body? Why not to another? Why to any body at all? This question does nag me occasionally, but I know I won't get an answer to it. Had I thought an answer would be possible, I would have asked it in this forum a long time ago.


BR I wouldn't be in a rush to experience this as you will get an answer to this question one day. From my dualistic mindset I see only two possible futures for you. Your consciousness leaves your body some day and either enters a place like the astral plane or returns to another body, OR the more unsavory is your consciousness ends with your last breath.

It is probably a blessing your awareness is tethered to your physical form as many people who have ventured into the astral plane ,or have had dissociative experiences with hallucinogens or through psychiatric conditions, suffer greatly when they loose the connection with their body. I think of my body as home base that gives me a safe place to do these spiritual explorations during this incarnation.
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1723 Posts

Posted - Feb 20 2021 :  1:28:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
It is probably a blessing your awareness is tethered to your physical form as many people who have ventured into the astral plane ,or have had dissociative experiences with hallucinogens or through psychiatric conditions, suffer greatly when they loose the connection with their body. I think of my body as home base that gives me a safe place to do these spiritual explorations during this incarnation.


Hi Interpaul
My question did not imply any wish whatsoever that it were otherwise. It is pure curiosity about the way things are, just as Sey had a purely theoretical question about thoughts. I gave my example to match hers.
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maheswari

Lebanon
2516 Posts

Posted - Feb 20 2021 :  1:33:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Sey
as much as it is important not to bypass our questions but also there is no need to actively create more and more questions
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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
75 Posts

Posted - Feb 20 2021 :  9:23:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

For a while now, I have been trying to understand what thoughts are, where they originate, even their purpose.

Do they originate from consciousness or from mind?

Putting aside rational thinking required to perform a task etc.. ; random thoughts just pop up in the mind apparently from nowhere. Some are not even my thoughts. Watch a thought emerge and it comes out of nothingness; try to see what it is made of and again nothingness... unless emotionally charged, then you can see the energy.
Those stray thoughts - Who/What wills them into being?

What the hell are thoughts and really, what purpose do they serve?


Sey



Om Sey,

Thoughts are just ripples within the stillness, ultimately their only purpose is to make you realise that you have lost your meditation.

You say these thoughts have no energy, but the very fact that you noticed them in the first place means that... and asking about them gives them more energy (energy flows where attention goes...).

Om Shanti
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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
75 Posts

Posted - Feb 20 2021 :  9:44:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

It is true when you are in the non-dual state the question does not arise. Let’s move rather to the borderline state between where you can observe thoughts float by just like you can observe the landscape which has not disappeared, not as separate from you but you - if that would make you more comfortable

Question: In what state am I when I look for my felt sense of “I”, my answer is that - “That” meaning Reality? Yogani talks about this somewhere how we can be in this dual realm and still ‘see’ our non-dual nature.

Thanks Maheswari for the talk by Rupert - I believe I have seen this one.


Sey







Could you point me to this lesson
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Charliedog

1623 Posts

Posted - Feb 21 2021 :  02:24:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,

This lessons amongst others shines light.

Evolutionary stages of mind

The perceiver and the perceived

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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
75 Posts

Posted - Feb 21 2021 :  7:55:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I have described it like this for a friend before:

Ok, so if you imagine an AI (artificial intelligence) robot that has five inputs (sight, sound, taste, touch and smell (sensors)), that enabled it to operate and interact with the external (material) world though feedback from these inputs (senses), so if it touched something hot it would burn, so it would learn not do that again (reactive (not active)), and so on etc... (And) all this information gets stored on its' hard drive (mind)). So it constantly learns how to act and interact with its' environment (world) though past experiences recalling information stored on its' hardware, then one day it realises that it's running a program based on all these (past) interactions and experiences. So now you have the robot (body), program (hard drive (mind)) and something that is aware of both of them... so now there are three things, body, mind and awareness, these are three of the Koshas, Annamaya kosha (body), Manomaya kosher (mind) and Anandamaya kosha (awareness).

Edited by - Yogabuzz108 on Feb 21 2021 8:23:18 PM
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maheswari

Lebanon
2516 Posts

Posted - Feb 22 2021 :  06:22:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Awarness was there all the time
It is not the third thing that appears
It is the one and only
Awareness of the body
Awareness of the mind
Awarness being aware of itself is the main thing where body, mind ,the world, time , space, egos surface
It is the screen, everything else is shadow
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interpaul

USA
376 Posts

Posted - Feb 22 2021 :  11:55:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Maheswari, I always appreciate your attempts to share the non dualist perspective. I could relate to Yogabuzz108's scientific perspective as it aligns with mine. In some ways this back and forth exploration in the dual and non dual reminds me of Plato's allegory of the cave. For the cave dwellers (dualists) all is explained by interpretations of the shadows on the walls. As a cave dweller desiring to leave the cave I can understand the deeper truth of awareness you point to, yet, I live in the cave of the 5 senses and am very much teathered to the realities they dictate (e.g. I will burn my finger if I stick it into a flame). What frustrates me is the people outside the cave tell me the shaddows are an illusion and I just need to step out of the cave. As a serious seeker it is frustrating to be told your world view is a myth, an illusion. To access "reality", e.g. nonduality is not an easy task. AYP seems the best path I've found that points in that direction, yet the patience required while waiting for the guide to show me the way out of the cave (that illusive silent witness)seems almost heroic. I have sensed an impatience directed at us lowly cave people by those who have escaped the cave. Is that a projection of my dualistic mind?
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zamolxes

Romania
92 Posts

Posted - Feb 22 2021 :  2:32:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey interpaul I can relate with you here, when I started pondering on the shadows on the wall ( a great mike oldfield song by the way) I always listened to non-dualistic teachers. Mooji, echkart tolle, krishnamurti etc, and I exhausted myself trying to be one, or rather zero. But after letting it behind, and starting practices, I began seeing silence as the non-dual factor, that which ties all together. And so, with my previous tendency to self-inquire, I began releasing my dualistic impressions and questions and what-not into silence, realising in a way that it is not that I don't perceive the non-dualistic nature, but that I create duality. Now of course, I don't feel unity with everything and neither do I feel the self in people, but the silence, the inner space, it surely is not dual. And so, for me, it is not about dual or non-dual, is about beign, like playing instruments or sports, when the mind is not, everything else is, even if we (or rather the mind) are not aware of the all. Is more than worldviews, it is that I don't know, and stop taking in what I read. If I don't experience unity, I won't try to understand it, so I am at peace with the dualistic world, but then neither do I think of it that way, so perhaps the illusion is separating everything in dualistic or nondualistic, when all there is is our experience of life, however that may be. The again, no need to change it or inquire too much into it, doesn't matter to me that it is thought as an illusion by others. I think it is a balance, I once went too far into words, and then too far away from them.

Edited by - zamolxes on Feb 22 2021 2:39:39 PM
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1723 Posts

Posted - Feb 22 2021 :  3:49:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
people outside the cave tell me the shaddows are an illusion and I just need to step out of the cave.

I am sorry to hear that you had to listen to this kind of talk. What an unhelpful thing to say.

quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
have sensed an impatience directed at us lowly cave people by those who have escaped the cave.

It it possible that you might have noticed some reluctance to talk about non-duality? If that is the case, then I would say there are good reasons for such reluctance. The best thing is to stick to our sitting practices.

We are all beggars hoping for grace to find us. Looking down on anyone else wouldn't make any sense.
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pkj

USA
158 Posts

Posted - Feb 22 2021 :  4:39:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat

"We are all beggars hoping for grace to find us. Looking down on anyone else wouldn't make any sense."




Beautifully put, absolutely grace is the most important part..

As Ramana Maharishi out it

“Realization is the result of the Guru’s Grace more than of teachings, lectures, meditations, etc. These are only secondary but that is the primary and essential cause.”
Ramana maharshi.

Edited by - pkj on Feb 22 2021 4:40:11 PM
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