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 Satsang Cafe - General Discussions on AYP
 Freedom
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BeezBuzz

Australia
39 Posts

Posted - Aug 03 2020 :  7:09:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Question; Is freedom in the physical world a "spiritual" quality that should b cared for or is it ultimately unimportant in regards to enlightenment?

interpaul

USA
146 Posts

Posted - Aug 03 2020 :  10:10:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
BeezBuzz, An interesting question. I'm not sure exactly what angle you are approaching this question. I immediately thought of Maslow. I suspect it would be difficult to find enlightenment if your basic safety needs and freedom were threatened, although, it seems some individuals find a path to enlightenment in prison and other austere places that truly limit freedom. Ultimately I suspect it relates to your inner sense of freedom.
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1594 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2020 :  04:51:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I would say that the only freedom that is possible in this world is a spiritual quality, that is the freedom we attain in nonduality. So it is the fruit of spiritual practice. And it's beyond circumstances. As Interpaul said, being in a prison cannot take that kind of freedom away from you.

Any other kind of freedom is subject to compromise. For example, I might want the freedom to decorate my house in girly colours, but my husband will say "these colours are not me". We might want to throw a party in our garden, but the neighbours will probably not like hearing the disco. You can expand this to wider and wider communities... We can consume resources to our heart's content, but there are 7.8 billion people on this planet and the more we consume, the less will be left for others. So we check our freedoms so that other people can have some of theirs.

Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Aug 04 2020 04:53:09 AM
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BeezBuzz

Australia
39 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2020 :  05:23:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks both, I canít explain too much of where Iím coming from because quite rightly, thereís rules here against it on these boards, but suffice to say I wasnít talking about prisoners who, rightly or wrongly, have already lost their freedom and can realise everything locked up.

In Braveheart, mel Gibsonís Scottish Christ fights and dies for freedom. Maybe it was on a deeper level but based on that story, he wasnít doing it for non duality. But because it was right. Every human is born as a free being, should we fight to keep it that way?

Should we as yogis grin and cop whatever comes to not get sucked into worldly troubles?
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kumar ul islam

United Kingdom
730 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2020 :  2:02:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
your really thinking about the highest dharma the best possible action to be taken in any particular situation ,freedom lies within truth or your truth your reality, ,braveheart thought freedom was something and his oppressors another neither are right or wrong but just so ,knowledge gives you a pathway to freedom when you know an action a word or any movement in the world creates consequences ,action in inaction ,inaction in action ,you do or you dont either has its merits or not ,all things are conditioned our thoughts our actions and the things we name none really exist but do exist but are impermanent freedom lies in knowing this realizing even enlightenment is just another condition or set of conditions ,the buddha says "like a bird in the clear blue sky you see it then its gone and you wonder whether it was actually there at all enlightenment should be contemplated in this way "freedom to learn to practice is important and should be guarded, the highest form should be let to evolve create whilst not destroying any other expression of humanity ,freedom is not just ours yours or mine but every entity ever created from the atom to the entire universe ,all seek freedom all the time within each form they are in whether they know it or not ,full circle back to the highest dharma .

Edited by - kumar ul islam on Aug 04 2020 2:50:15 PM
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BeezBuzz

Australia
39 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2020 :  10:47:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Interpaul, Maslow is kinda what Iím hinting at. Does the pursuit of freedom add to your ďspiritual bank account"?
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BeezBuzz

Australia
39 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2020 :  11:04:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
BlueRaincoat, I agree that the non dual reality is the ultimate freedom, but I donít think it has to b so black and white. There can b certain shades of gray, not just dual and non dual. Re ur example of the party in ur garden. I donít think thatís freedom but selfishness. Iím talking about freedom for the individual and all, and not to anybody elseís detriment. I think freedom for the individual is a positive for everyone
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BeezBuzz

Australia
39 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2020 :  11:11:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Kumar, ďfreedom lies within truth", very nice.

Just so I understand, r u saying the pursuit of freedom is dharma, and everyoneís idea of freedom is different, so thereís no right or wrong?
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1246 Posts

Posted - Aug 05 2020 :  12:49:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear BB,

I would clarify that the freedom sought in spiritual practices like AYP is freedom from the delusions of your own mind, freedom from your own wrong thinking. End of suffering. It is the ultimate freedom.
However should we standby and watch the atroscities and injustices of this world? No. Not if we can do something about it. It may be in your personality to be a Mahatma Gandhi or simply help the person next door whose rights are not being respected such as in domestic violence.

It is up to you to chose.


Sey


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BeezBuzz

Australia
39 Posts

Posted - Aug 05 2020 :  01:36:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, thanks, Sey. But then, that will have its own karmic burdens I guess, or r things done in the service of dharma exempt from karma?
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kumar ul islam

United Kingdom
730 Posts

Posted - Aug 05 2020 :  5:54:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
there is action and consequence all have conditions ,sometimes what we expect from an action does not produce the outcome we desire ,our internal process is similar but on a more profound level and always moving or flowing when we notice this we can observe this, knowing that freedom lies in not stopping the flow or content but knowing that they consist of impermanence and are therefore empty,no wrong or right thinking just thoughts ,they flow like river into the ocean ,all deities are just human experience made of desire no karmic burdens I think this is best left to the religions of guilt ,dharma in the context of which I speak requires an awareness beyond conditioned reaction, remembering the creative force requires this for its movement and change so somewhere in the middle between being empty and full a life of the spirit can be realized ,even the individual jiva is conditioned made to stay put while living the human story ,freedom is a word among many others there to lure us into unto the ever evolving creation we reside, it conjures up just as many other desires as the gods would have it and creates just as much mischief .

Edited by - kumar ul islam on Aug 05 2020 6:03:30 PM
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bsash

India
4 Posts

Posted - Aug 12 2020 :  01:33:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
In Braveheart, mel Gibsonís Scottish Christ fights and dies for freedom.'

I haven't seen the movie, but they are fighting for their independence (political and probably religious) right?

India got political 'Independence' on August 15th 1947, but freedom is still a work under progress.

Freedom I feel is something beyond independence and dependence. In some cases, independence maybe necessary for freedom and in some cases it may not be. Is freedom not such a thing, that once defined it stops being freedom any longer? Freedom must always be a personal discovery. Only then is it truly free. Otherwise it will be a conformation to some idea masquerading as freedom.

I may surrender to a king or queen, or a government, or God and yet be free. Is perfect surrender not freedom?

Someone says, "Give me all your money."
I say, "Take it."
They come back tomorrow and say, "Give me your house."
I say, "Take it."
They keep taking and I keep giving. If this process doesn't create regret, anger, feelings of vengeance and suffering within me, am I not free from their oppression?
Since no matter what they do I remain as I am. I am free.

EDIT: But if every time they take something from me, it creates violence within me, as suffering, anger etc. Then to have Freedom, first I must stop this violence. First, I must get out of that situation somehow. Second, I must practice so that next time such a situation doesn't create violence within me.
So I guess it's same as what's been pointed out above.
quote:
I suspect it would be difficult to find enlightenment if your basic safety needs and freedom were threatened


Edited by - bsash on Aug 12 2020 09:42:29 AM
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interpaul

USA
146 Posts

Posted - Aug 13 2020 :  4:23:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
bsash, Your last comments remind me of the thought experiment in which you ask yourself if you are still you if someone cuts off your hand, then your arm, then both arms, then both legs, etc. If you give away all of your possessions too are you still you? I don't believe one has to relinquish everything in the physical world to achieve enlightenment but attachment to the physical body does seem to ultimately be the direction these practices point. The irony is we use the physical body in the beginning to help release us from our attachment to our ego. I think it is the rare individual who would respond to having all one's possessions taken without a response of fear and anger. The path to spiritual freedom, even if explored in a safe society where one's possessions are not threatened, is still a deep challenge as most of us fight to hold onto our self identity.
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