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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1219 Posts

Posted - May 08 2020 :  01:54:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Thoughts have been on my mind lately
Get it?

They pop out of nothing and slither back into nothing. They are wisps of nothing. But we all know their impact.


What are thoughts exactly? How do they come about?
Does anyone know?


Sey

BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1569 Posts

Posted - May 08 2020 :  05:01:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Sey

I'm reading your question and wondering what it is you're after...

Psychology offers of definition of thought. Would that answer your question? You can google "thought definition psychology" and you will find various versions of it.

I think of thinking as a useful tool that humans have acquired to survive in a world that we're not physically very fit for (no claws, no fur etc - if we couldn't manipulate our environment as well as we do, we would die of cold or starvation). Thinking makes us good at manipulating our environment. We can create a model of the world in our head and manipulate it to figure out how we can best alter the reality to make it more convenient to us.

There is a price to pay for this gift. There is a theory that our ancient brain can't tell the difference between our perception of reality and the fictitious representations of it that we make in our heads. So if we picture a doom and gloom scenario, our ancient brain will have the same emotional reaction it would have to a real doom and gloom situation. Hence the widespread mental illness issues humans are prone to. Another way to look at it is that our thinking has been given to us to solve problems. It's on the lookout for problems all the time and if it can't find them, it creates them. Jon Kabat-Zinn wrote about these ideas. He's a psychiatrist (I think) who proposed mindfulness to treat depression.

I don't know if this is the sort of answer you were after - just what popped into my head while reading your post.

Edited by - BlueRaincoat on May 08 2020 4:31:22 PM
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zamolxes

Romania
8 Posts

Posted - May 08 2020 :  1:10:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello

I also thought about thoughts and there are really good explanations out there. The way I see it is that the intellect remembers what he sees and it creates a memory out of it, now when we see things we see them at the same time in our memory, for example when we look at a tree, we can see the tree and the life revolving around it, or we can most probably see just the idea we have of it, just a 'tree'. Then after hundreds of years when language was developed we started to live more in the field of names or ideas we created about the things we saw, (that's why is so hard to speak of spiritual experiences since they are not of the mind, and we can't share them since they are personal). Now, the ego is just the idea we have of ourselfes, as an idea it is just a conglomeration of thoughts, ideas about what we know, that's why there are always thoughts in our heads, as if part of some movie.

I once read an interpretation of the yoga sutras of Pantalaji, and in it the author explains thoughts as seeds. When you see an apple, you create a seed in your mind regarding that apple, now you mostly see the seed instead of the apple, and in the fields of your mind there are countless seeds, and they grow and pop up time and time again, now, they are what yogani calls them obstructions, and in deep meditation we just take this seeds out. You've probably heard of so many people tellong you to think positively no matter what happens in your life, it is because with your optimism you water this positive thoughts and then the fields of your mind will be more beatiful, only that we don't really need something beautiful, we want Freedom.

Also, there is this subconscious mind that we all share, and Eckhart Tolle has a video explaining what thoughts are, there is this field, more subtle than our energies, in which information flows, and in it there are maaany bubbles, which can be thoughts that people share, if you are aware of your thoughts you've probably notice that there are many of them that repeats themselves, and many that you share with your friends and people alike you. Now, when you whatch the news you open yourself to this field of information and suddenly a bubble hits you. If your state of mind changes you become prone to be hit by more negative bubbles and suddenly think of how sad your life is or how you are not paid enough for this job, or for example if you are in a good mood you suddenly think how beatiful life is.

All in all thoughts are just that, bubbles floating around, it is part of it all, just as cars passing by.

Hope you've made an overall idea and can now flow freely in the river that life is. Much love.
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1219 Posts

Posted - May 11 2020 :  01:39:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Blue & zam


@Blue - I have looked up definition of thought in psychology. It makes interesting reading but is not what I am looking for. I literally mean what are thoughts made of. The best guess would be energy but I can 'see' the different forms of energy. Emotions, for example, are heavier than thoughts and you can 'see' it arise and disturb the mind. But thoughts are ephemeral, there is nothing there, just the knowing.
Scientists say that thoughts are generated by the brain because they can see the parts of the brain that light up during the different types of thinking. That is no evidence that thoughts arise from the brain to me. But we know scientists get some things wrong because they generally do not consider the role of Consciousness. In yoga, the brain is the interface, the data processor, between our perceived physical world and our minds and "I".

My second wondering is: Do thoughts arise from unbounded Consciousness and send to limited consciousness; so from the un-manifest to the manifest or vice-versa limited to un-limited. As I write this - I get the feeling that it goes both ways; some thoughts are linked with the 5 senses and arise because of the data provided by them and then known by the Knower.(??) But some deeper thoughts appear to originate from un-bounded Consciousness and brought into our limited consciousness. This is when we say we are following our inner Knowing or our intuition


And I am probably talking nonsense.

It all still sounds not quite right...

Anyone care to throw in some more thoughts?


Sey

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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1569 Posts

Posted - May 11 2020 :  3:09:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Scientists say that thoughts are generated by the brain because they can see the parts of the brain that light up during the different types of thinking. [...]
My second wondering is: Do thoughts arise from unbounded Consciousness


Do you see a contradiction there? Is it not possible that thoughts arise from Consciousness and from the brain? If we can talk about stillness in action, can we not also talk about the brain as a manifestation of Consciousness?
The thinking mind has a habit of slicing reality into manageable pieces so that it can handle it, but when we look carefully we find that things we deemed to be different/separate are in fact the same. Take the dichotomy matter - energy. Is is now a thing of the past, as physicists have long discovered matter is very concentrated energy.

Just a thought...
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zamolxes

Romania
8 Posts

Posted - May 11 2020 :  3:12:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Well regarding your second wandering I would have some thoughts yet again.
I think I'll start by saying that the thoughts we perceive are just interpretations of what's going in our minds. Let's start by putting it another way, before language existed l, how did people think? I am sure you can try it too, try and see how you can think without engaging in dialogue with yourself, and you will see that the words that pop up in your head are just like subtitles. It is like after language was invented, any activity we have in our nervous system gets automatically transferred into words, that's why many times we can't stop our thoughts since language is limited.
Since thoughts are the subtitles then yes it goes both ways, on one hand there is the conscious mind, where more dry thoughts occur, some worries, some plans, some reminders. On the other hand there is the subconscious mind where more heavy stuff is recorded.

Preety interesting that you are asking these questions since the last couple of days I have been really exploring these aspects inside of me. And I've come to see it as if some stuff comes from the mind, and other stuff from the 'heart'. What is from the mind is the analysis, the interpretations, the plain subtitles. What comes from the heart are feelings, is an harmony between feelings and your intellect, and those heavy thoughts feel very alive. You've probably heard the phrase Listen to your heart, since that is where intuition lies, where the intelligence of being operates.
I have really pondered about this for a long time, what am I really thinking? Is it really like this? After the stress built up I just couldn't take it anymore and just surrendered, and then I saw, how I thought in a limited space using the little desires i had, the curiosity and the analysis, and then how I just could watch what was inside of me, how I always had these profound feelings since I was a kid coming from my heart, and I was dead to them. Now it is preety interesting when I'm just resting, how some thoughts pop up in my brain and how after seeing them I just open up and instead of it being mecanical and dry, my heart just comes and it feels as if it's saying that you are worrying to much again. Then I'm free.
I'd also say that there are no thoughts coming from the unbounded, since the unbounded is light , and thoughts, wherever they come from, even intuition, are things being lighted by unbounded consciousness.
Because at thea heart of everything in existence stays the unbounded light, from the light it all comes from, when you look at a tree, and see it's leaves fluttering in the wind, you get this funny feeling, these feeling that there is something so great hidden in there, something unfathomable, something infinite, it is because you get to see the light, because we and the leaves are just two poles of the same magnet, the light that our consciousness is at it's source is getting through our energies, through our information, through our bodies, through the body of the lead, through it's life, i gets through the OM and it connects with the light on the other side, that' why there is this funny feeling as if you are looking at yourself. Thoughts are the same, they arise in our consciousness, you can see them because they are being lighted by consciousness, some feel dry becaude they are just a fog, as if you are seeing half a shadow, some hold the light, some are alive, they vibrate the same as a tree (you should see a photo of a Sri yantra, Yogani also talked about it in couple of lessons, it is this photo of 7 rows of triangles, each row a part of our existence, one chackra, and at the same time it shows the OM, now each and every one of the rows they merge with one another, and whn you see that in every sound, everything that you see it becomes even more clear. Now the center of the photo is the light of consciousness.)
I hope it is not too long this answer haha, i just get sucked by it since I'm a little fanatic of everything. I was always curious about the universe and how it all came to be, thanks to yoga I can just explore it myself and I've never been happier. I'm just happy someone asks these questions and get all crazy
Hope I've been of use here. Much love Sey
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interpaul

USA
118 Posts

Posted - May 11 2020 :  6:43:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Sey, I like how you are digging deeper into your experience and presumably trying to deconstruct reality. I have been very interested in thoughts over the last few years. Three practices have given me some insights into my thinking mind. As with most people here, mantra based meditation is one practice that has revealed the underlying energy beyond thoughts for me. Distracting the mind with repetition of the mantra quells most other thoughts. I never did mantra meditation before and thought it would be inferior to traditional breath focused meditation as I thought the focus on words would work against quieting the mind and freeing it from thoughts. What I've experienced is a deep reservoir of energy that surges when I hand cuff my mind and don't allow it to think as I force it to stay on the predetermined mantra. This makes me consider the possibility that thoughts are, as Zamolxes poses above, subtitles. We so desperately want to label things. Scientists are obsessed with giving labels to everything. Experiencing a pretty flower is very different from thinking "oh what a pretty flower". The experience, free of the thought is much deeper. Another practice I've done for a few years is self hypnosis. This is similar to meditation, except it has allowed me to shut off all thoughts for periods of time. In these silent moments, free of thoughts, I experience states of bliss. This also makes me wonder if the thinking mind, although helpful for survival, has stolen our capacity for deeper experiences. Lastly, the practice of samyama, is another surprise "thought" experiment of sorts. In that practice, which is very similar for me to self hypnosis, we release a thought into the silence of meditation and let it do its magic in the still mind. I still don't fully understand how it works but I also experience deep physical reactions as the thought is released into the silence, suggesting thoughts work at a superficial, crude level but interface with a deeper, richer, unconscious realm where most of who and what we are resides.
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1219 Posts

Posted - May 14 2020 :  02:03:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Interpaul,

Yes, I am trying to de-construct reality. I keep trying in different ways experientially (trying to make the little crimson flower disappear as reported in another thread, plus the frog incident) and rationally.

What do we ever truly experience except a Knowing? A Knower that knows. Does knowing necessarily involve thinking? As I sit here and let clearness seep through and penetrate everything, thinking stops. And yet, I am. If I don't let myself fade away completely, I see, I hear. I am not thinking. Note that I switching back and forth between states of consciousness here. To write this, I have to 'pull' myself in and thinking is necessary. Still can't "see" what thoughts are. Just nothing at all.

@Blue - It could be that thoughts arise from both Consciousness and the brain but I am not quite convinced.

@Zam - before language came into play, I would say that thoughts were in pictures and sounds not words, and certainly not written words.

How about the many thoughts I have that are not my own? Nothing to do with me at all.


Sey


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