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 Other Systems and Alternate Approaches
 kundalini meditation addiction!
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Brujoguy71

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2019 :  11:28:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hello everyone! So Im not sure how common this is or if anyone has ever heard of being addicted to kundalini type meditations such as Sat-kriya, microcosmic orbit with root lock, spinal breathing with locks or perinium contractions? Im 48 now and have done these off and on since i was 19 or so. I think its the ecstatic conductivity feeling thats addicting. But im not sure. Anyone ever heard of this and how do you stop? Don't get me wrong I also have practiced mantra and passive meditation for years but it does not give the same feeling. Its not the same thing.

Dogboy

USA
1682 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2019 :  6:56:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Do not short sell mantra meditation; AYP awoke ecstatic energy in me in but a year and a half.

https://www.aypsite.org/10.html
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Christi

United Kingdom
3641 Posts

Posted - Dec 24 2019 :  2:28:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Brujoguy71,

It is quite common for people to become attached to the ecstasy that can come from energetic practices. But ecstasy is only one aspect of the enlightenment equation. The other aspect is bliss. Cultivating the ecstatic side to the expense of stillness and inner silence, often leads only to a bumpy road that does not get anyone very far. Yogani sometimes refers to the energetic side as "the highs and lows of ecstasy".

Out of the two sides of the enlightenment equation, I would say that the cultivation of inner silence and bliss is the more important aspect. If we want to, we can cultivate both at once, which is what the AYP system is all about.

See this lesson on the different aspects of enlightenment:

Lesson 35 - Enlightenment Milestones

And this is an article I wrote on ecstasy:

The role of ecstasy in yoga

Christi
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AYPforum

351 Posts

Posted - Dec 24 2019 :  2:30:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
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interpaul

USA
70 Posts

Posted - Dec 24 2019 :  5:39:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi, Your advice to Brujoguy71 seems to be a common message in response to many questions posed on this forum over the years. It does seem the ecstatic part compels people much more towards these practices, not surprisingly, considering how our nervous systems are wired for rewarding activities that lead to pleasure. In my practices I also have struggled with getting caught up in the ecstasy part but am deeply committed to developing the inner silence/witness and am trying to see the ecstatic experiences as scenery and just favor the practices as Yogani instructs. The mantra meditation feels a little like handcuffs that force my mind to comply with the practice and surprisingly seems to increase the ecstatic part for me even if done without kechari or siddhasana. There does seem to be an almost epic battle between bliss and ecstasy every day while sitting. I hear again and again the fundamental need to create this inner silence to be able to progress in this process. I find it difficult to force silence into being. After ecstatic waves pass I often will feel the silence for periods of time. Any suggestions on how to enhance the bliss end of the equation?
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Christi

United Kingdom
3641 Posts

Posted - Dec 25 2019 :  04:54:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Interpaul,

Bliss is something that cannot be forced. The first stage in bliss is peace and tranquillity. It comes when we simply allow things to be as they are. So, it is more of a letting go than a doing.

One common example that is given is that of a lake with sediment floating in it. If we stir the sediment with a stick, then it will stay suspended and we cannot see our reflection in the lake. But if we stop stirring and just watch, the sediment will naturally fall to the bottom over time and the lake will become clear.

Deep Meditation is actually a process of learning how to stop stirring the lake with a stick. By repeatedly coming back to the mantra with our attention, the mind becomes calmer and we gradually begin to see ourselves as the witness of what is taking place. Residing as the witness, is the same as allowing the sediment to settle to the bottom of the lake.

Then, over time, peacefulness deepens into joy and joy deepens into bliss. There does not need to be a battle between bliss and ecstasy, as both can exist at the same time. We can be at peace even as ecstatic waves of joy are coursing through our body. This is in fact a part of the journey and is necessary in order to progress to the higher stages of the path.

This is from lesson 113:

"Activation of the experiences of bliss and ecstasy through advanced yoga practices corresponds to the first two stages of enlightenment, which have been discussed in previous lessons - the rise of inner silence and the rise of ecstasy, best done in in that order. The third stage of enlightenment comes following the union of bliss and ecstasy in divine romance inside. While this is going on, we tend to get the descriptions jumbled, because both pure bliss consciousness and divine ecstasy are present at the same time, joining inside us!

What comes out of this union of the masculine and feminine polar energies inside? We have described the third stage of enlightenment as "unity," where we see all as an expression of the One that we have become. That One is pure bliss consciousness coexisting within all the (ecstatic) processes of nature. When it gets to this stage, we become a channel for an unending flow of divine love. We act for the good of all, expecting nothing in return, because we perceive all as an expression of our own self. In this stage, personal need is expanded to encompass universal need. This is enlightenment, divine love naturally manifesting through us, born of the union of pure bliss consciousness and divine ecstasy inside us." [Yogani]

And yes, it is true that as we dive into bliss in our meditation, it can cause ecstasy to stir and rise up in us. That is because of a natural tendency for prana to rise up to meet stillness and inner silence. So, once we reach a certain stage in our practice, bliss and ecstasy will always be present, due to their natural connection in the body and mind. It becomes a process of working with them. Sometimes bliss will be stronger and at other times ecstasy will be stronger. As long as we are doing our practices according to the instructions, then everything will be fine and we can allow whatever happens to happen.

Christi

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interpaul

USA
70 Posts

Posted - Dec 26 2019 :  1:00:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi, Thank you! I feel like I know the path forward as Yogani has outlined it so clearly. You and others have reinforced the message again and again to me and others who struggle. The challenge for me, and I suspect many folks, is trusting this really is a path that leads to the desired outcome. Yogani's analogy of digging for water makes great sense to me. I had done a breath based meditation for several years. This resulted in some calm but I wouldn't say I reached any permanent state of tranquility let alone bliss. After discovering the microcosmic orbit meditation I found a new deepening of the experience but got caught up in the trappings of the teachings that centered around being multiorgasmic. When I discovered AYP about 6 months ago I found Yogan's message to be the first that had a depth and a body of instructions that helped me to see the path forward. I am only part of the way into the teachings, limited by too much arousal and the need to self pace. I do have the greatest hope this path will lead to spiritual water to take the analogy to fruition, BUT, I also have a nagging fear I'm digging in an area that has many treasures but may not have water at its depth. Spending an hour every day doing these practices is a real commitment given a 40 hour job and 3 teenage kids to care for. I continue to do the practices but share my fears on this forum with the hope experienced practitioners like you will remind me this is the real deal and not just a path of increasing arousal.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3641 Posts

Posted - Dec 26 2019 :  8:16:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Interpaul,

With AYP, the first practice taught is Deep Meditation. This is done deliberately to put the cultivation of inner silence (samadhi) at the heart of the practice. All of the other practices in AYP are really additions to this.

It can be easy to forget this when the inner energies are running high in the body, and especially when we begin to experience ecstasy. It is really inner silence that allows us to find water.

Yoga is a serious commitment. So, it is good to question where we are going from time to time. There is saying in yoga that all paths lead to the top of the mountain. Personally, I do not think that is true. Some paths just go around the bottom of the mountain. Some paths go up a little way and then come back down again. It is actually quite rare to find a path that goes all the way to the top.

And in fact, it is not even sufficient for a path to go all the way to the top of the mountain. There needs to be enough guidance given for people to be able to avoid the pitfalls on the way. Addiction to ecstasy can in fact be one of the pitfalls in yoga. Everything has to be kept in balance. The cultivation of inner silence, inner purification (ecstasy), the cultivation of the witness, the cultivation of wisdom and knowledge (jnana) through self-inquiry and so on.

It is a long journey, and there can be ups and downs along the road. So, it can help to keep the bigger picture in mind at times. Ecstasy is just one small part of a big journey.

Christi
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1200 Posts

Posted - Dec 27 2019 :  12:37:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by interpaul

Christi, Your advice to Brujoguy71 seems to be a common message in response to many questions posed on this forum over the years. It does seem the ecstatic part compels people much more towards these practices, not surprisingly, considering how our nervous systems are wired for rewarding activities that lead to pleasure. In my practices I also have struggled with getting caught up in the ecstasy part but am deeply committed to developing the inner silence/witness and am trying to see the ecstatic experiences as scenery and just favor the practices as Yogani instructs. The mantra meditation feels a little like handcuffs that force my mind to comply with the practice and surprisingly seems to increase the ecstatic part for me even if done without kechari or siddhasana. There does seem to be an almost epic battle between bliss and ecstasy every day while sitting. I hear again and again the fundamental need to create this inner silence to be able to progress in this process. I find it difficult to force silence into being. After ecstatic waves pass I often will feel the silence for periods of time. Any suggestions on how to enhance the bliss end of the equation?



Hi again. This thread is dealing with exactly what I was trying to point out in the other thread. And Christi has already covered it nicely.


Sey
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interpaul

USA
70 Posts

Posted - Dec 27 2019 :  1:40:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi and Sey, Thank you both for reminding me to find better balance. I do see the risks of ecstasy as a pitfall to spiritual growth. I feel a little like a kid who is told to eat his vegetables more. Yogani has done an amazing thing offering all these teachings online in this format but it does put the responsibility on the student to take it really slow. I pretty much have had to stop the lessons now for over a month and go back to a much simpler routine, which is frustrating as I very much enjoy the teachings. I've been telling myself my bakhti is what is driving this need for pushing forward but it seems the real motivation may just be pleasure seeking. Hopefully I can rise above my more primitive needs and awaken The Witness by focusing more on the DM.
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Dogboy

USA
1682 Posts

Posted - Dec 27 2019 :  6:43:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
You’ve got this! Be the tortoise not the hare.
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