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 Renouncing sex completely, a goal?
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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 07 2019 :  5:32:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
After years of marital struggle I have come to understand my wife has no interest in sex at all. We have worked on this with years of marital counseling but I realize she may never return to an interest. She is not open to an open marriage. Porn/masturbation became repellant for me as my aging body felt exhausted and viewing that type of stimulating imagery drained me of joy. I happened upon bramacharya as an experiment to see if I could find some alternative to regular sexual relations and was surprised by how many pleasurable experiences I've had as a result of this and the AYP practices. I have read some posts declaring Yogi's have more satisfying pleasurable experiences by simply purifying the mind thru Yoga. I have had some ecstatic experiences that rival some of the best sex I've had yet I still long for that physical connection (we do cuddle but she has shut down to all other contact). Tantric sex with her is just not an option. Divorce seems like my only option at this point if I want to have a sexual relationship with a woman again, yet there is so much to loose that comes from our marriage (3 kids, financial security, friends, community etc). Have any of you found a place of acceptance in renouncing sexual relations in favor of AYP practices and are you able to feel at peace with the sacrifice, i.e. have the ecstatic blissful experiences made up for the sacrifice in your case?

jusmail

India
482 Posts

Posted - Oct 07 2019 :  10:14:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Why rock the boat at this age? Acceptance is a better path to follow rather than the ensuing mess and heartburn. If you haven't read the tantra lessons on this site, do read them. They will enlighten you a great deal.
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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 08 2019 :  1:23:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Jusmail, Thanks for your comments. Yes, I have viewed the tantra lessons. I had two reactions. Firstly, they made me sad realizing in my current relationship I will not be able to experience partner tantric sex. My post essentially addresses the second point which is self tantric practices are very powerful and my initial experiences suggest there can be ecstatic states achieved thru tantra as well as just doing SBP and DM. Having these initial experiences gave me hope that I could be peaceful even within my loveless relationship in my inner experiences. Where I struggle is wondering if I am using AYP as a way of avoiding dealing with the pain of a failing marriage. Is acceptance my journey or am I using fear of leaving a marriage as an excuse for the spiritual growth that I can find in a relationship with a more open individual?
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kumar ul islam

United Kingdom
693 Posts

Posted - Oct 08 2019 :  5:31:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
sex is very strong instinct a moving force within all manifestations from the division of a cell to our own procreation activities ,as humans we tend to embellish ornament and attach our own personnel needs and appetites within this very basic action, a very pleasurable almost at times mystical experience ,sex has hidden depths relating to control and the power this creates in the dynamics of our personal relationships ,coupled with cultural hierarchy of male to female domination and expectations we hold with our partners ,the peak experience is easily gained in sex possible for the male more so than the female ,females choose whereas males have no choice, its difficult to renounce this urge this longing and suppression long term creates its own problems ,to be healthy needs need to satiated especially if we feel that this has become an issue revolving around a personnel relationship, to give up all one has to keep satiating sexual desire seems irrational but this is the force that wills us humans on redirecting it would seem the answer and in some ways yoga provides us with a platform for change but like everything else we humans do sacrifice becomes a hardship when the rewards are not easily and immediately attained ,are we built this way to be forever between fullness and being empty and is this what desire really is, the never never and the nearly nearly .thank you for your openness and sharing paul.
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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 08 2019 :  8:41:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Kumar ul islam, Thanks you for your insights and the longest sentence of wisdom I have ever read. Your comments are poetic and leave me wanting more of the truth you point towards.
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Dogboy

USA
1646 Posts

Posted - Oct 08 2019 :  8:56:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Having these initial experiences gave me hope that I could be peaceful even within my loveless relationship in my inner experiences. Where I struggle is wondering if I am using AYP as a way of avoiding dealing with the pain of a failing marriage. Is acceptance my journey or am I using fear of leaving a marriage as an excuse for the spiritual growth that I can find in a relationship with a more open individual?


A great part of my attraction to yoga is that it crosses beams with sex; that it’s essence is fuel, for marriage, for the Divine. I joke with my wife that meditation is my mistress.. We have relations twice a month, and we are in a very comfortable loving space currently, now with her sobriety. Your dilemma has me imagining if she were to say “no more”, would it change our commitment to each other? I honestly can say it would not for me. She is a terrific friend and mother to my children, and I’m also in love with the man in the mirror, and he is always there for me.

But I am not you, and am not personally suffering from the prospect of ‘no longer in sexual union’ with my wife. You obviously experience pleasure from practice, definitely pursue further, to explore without shame, without fear, without worry. Yoga is so beautiful in this way!

I would not divorce, but commit to exploring your new surroundings. Allow your practices to open your heart to reconnect to the woman you chose as partner, she may still be that. Is she still open to any physical touch? Acknowledge that this new reality has hurt you, be open that your practice will allow hurt to dissolve.

Look for opportunities for touch, for play, for smiles. Offer her a massage. Compliment her. Vacuum the living room. Expect nothing from her in return.

And if, over time and in the end, this “love blast” does not change your prospective, or hers, and you decide to split, know that you did so with the integrity that you truly gave it your best shot. Love wins out, even in this outcome.

Edited by - Dogboy on Oct 08 2019 9:09:53 PM
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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 09 2019 :  11:42:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dogboy, Thank you! I feel the place of love from which your post comes. Knowing a little of your history makes your words mean a lot to me. You inspire me to keep trying. I became very discouraged recently when my wife rejected my offer to give her a massage (without any expectation of sex) just for the pleasure and connection. She talks of how she doesn't want to "do anything" and I thought a massage would be a wonderful way to connect without her having to do anything. When I found out she is paying for massages regularly and isn't open to receiving one from me, that made me sad. I understand she thinks massage puts her in a vulnerable position where her guilt about not wanting to have sex is accentuated. Anyway I can't change her feelings but I can continue to go deeper into my practices. Having just tasted a little of the ecstatic conductivity that is building in me with my practices I am hopeful the love you speak of will continue to build internally and give me the strength to find a way back into her heart.
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Dogboy

USA
1646 Posts

Posted - Oct 09 2019 :  2:29:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
A loving approach is a good start, as much for yourself as for her. Get regular massages yourself, she may be on to something! Consider booking a couple’s massage your next gifting opportunity, an intimate shared experience that could be a middle ground.

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lalow33

USA
962 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2019 :  12:30:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey, interpaul.
My experience, you can't yoga your way out of or into a relationship that's not working for you. Tried it. Failed.

Take care,
Lori

Edited by - lalow33 on Oct 12 2019 12:55:49 PM
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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2019 :  6:32:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Lalow33,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I realize yoga can't change my wife. I do believe it has given me new tools to change myself. Where I struggle is a more fundamental question regarding how important sexual relations are to our general health. Having achieved non ejaculatory orgasms that are truly blissful I have reached a place of deep satisfaction internally without as much need for outside sexual relations. I wonder if I truly let go of any expectations of any further sexual relations with my wife and went deeper into these practices if this would free my wife from guilt she has related to her lack of libido. Would this free her up emotionally to reengage more with me in other spheres of intimacy. Ultimately are we here on this physical plane to have physical relations or is there a time in life where we can let go of attachment to physical pleasure generated thru sexual relations and instead move deeper inward?
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Charliedog

1582 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2019 :  03:03:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
I realize yoga can't change my wife. I do believe it has given me new tools to change myself.


With the use of yoga tools, we heal and transform ourselves. We are transforming old believes, judgements and conditionings in ourselves. This could be confronting and not always easy.

quote:
I wonder if I truly let go of any expectations of any further sexual relations with my wife and went deeper into these practices if this would free my wife from guilt she has related to her lack of libido.


If we can let go expectations we will loose attachments. This means our relationships are based on unconditional love. Unconditional love has no expectations to receive something back. If we abide in unconditional love, all relationships will change, with ourselves, and with others. We are open and free, a catalyst for the healing vibrations for all of us. We realize who we truly are.

Enjoy practice,



Bhakti, the science of devotion

Edited by - Charliedog on Oct 13 2019 03:13:15 AM
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1516 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2019 :  04:53:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
Unconditional love has no expectations to receive something back. If we abide in unconditional love, all relationships will change, with ourselves, and with others.

Non-attachment also lets us see clearly. Interpaul, you have been very focused on the lack of sex in your marriage, so you are seeing the issue as "lack of libido" in you wife. There might be something else behind it.

Reading your posts above, I can see you have come a long way.
Having tantric sex with a partner is not essential to progress in yoga. Leaving sexual relations behind does not need to be a renunciation. Indeed, AYP does not recommend renouncing anything. Just steady progress to a state where attachments fall away.

Best wishes
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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2019 :  10:07:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
CharlieDog and BlueRaincoat, Thanks for your support. I am really being challenged in my marriage to truly take on the big issues that have controlled me for most of my life. I suspect most men's behaviors are controlled by the sexual drive. I truly hope the wisdom shared here are not just platitudes/ideals but the best path forward. I have heard therapists say unconditional love is unrealistic. As a a young man I held off on having sex till much later than most men based on platitudes/ideals I heard from people in the religious community. Ultimately that led to a lot of low self esteem and missing out on opportunities to have meaningful sexual experiences when most young people have these experiences. I just don't want to make another mistake and have regrets later in life.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3598 Posts

Posted - Oct 14 2019 :  05:28:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Thanks for sharing your experience. I realize yoga can't change my wife. I do believe it has given me new tools to change myself. Where I struggle is a more fundamental question regarding how important sexual relations are to our general health. Having achieved non ejaculatory orgasms that are truly blissful I have reached a place of deep satisfaction internally without as much need for outside sexual relations. I wonder if I truly let go of any expectations of any further sexual relations with my wife and went deeper into these practices if this would free my wife from guilt she has related to her lack of libido. Would this free her up emotionally to reengage more with me in other spheres of intimacy. Ultimately are we here on this physical plane to have physical relations or is there a time in life where we can let go of attachment to physical pleasure generated thru sexual relations and instead move deeper inward?


Hi Interpaul,

Yogani once said that Tantric sexual practices are the only spiritual practices that we eventually transcend. So yes, there is a stage where we simply no longer need to practice tantric sexual practices (or engage in any kind of sexual activity) and all of the work happens internally. There are many spiritual practitioners and teachers who live in this condition. And of course there are many people who are simply naturally celibate and don't engage in sexual activities at all.

If your wife does not want to have a sexual relationship, then that can be a good opportunity for you to spend more time doing the inner work. This will change your relationship to personal desires, including sexual desires. It will mean that you are free to be in relationship with your wife, without personal desires getting in the way. It would be a more meaningful and liberating form of relationship for both of you.


Christi
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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 14 2019 :  12:47:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi, Thank you. Having glimpsed the ecstatic bliss a few times I may be ready to go deeper into the practice. If this practice was a practice of self denial and suffering I don't think I could find the motivation. It is a bit scary taking the plunge into this truly inner journey, although I have realized the bliss it creates gives me a deeper reservoir to draw on in my real world interactions.
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kumar ul islam

United Kingdom
693 Posts

Posted - Oct 14 2019 :  4:01:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe the true sense of brahmacharaya is the renouncement of all desire I suppose there are grades from raiding the cookie jar to full on sexual urges but they still remain as sense of need or constructed need ,this leaves us in very difficult position as transcendence leads us to going beyond the impulses that are so prevalent and drive our behaviour attachments or whatever you wish to name them even the most enlightened are willed to act ,the four fountains spring to mind eating ,sleeping ,procreation and survival ,these interlink and appetites are created on the journey in these experiences ,as humans we do have extra sense and a complex way of understanding our predicament we know we know and that's difficult because just over the horizon lies a more beautiful dawn but our own day must finish first but we are forever hanging on to the light from the old day and when the new day comes it's the same but slightly different from the previous ,a step to something but we are never quite sure to what, that's if we are even slightly open to the vast expanse of our potential and the vast potential of the universe that supports our existence ,Krishna says "I hold up the whole universe by a fragment of myself "I suppose that puts having or not having sex in perspective but I am not God and my humanness may transcend the cookie jar at times but I know it's there and dipping ones hand inside reveals a certain fragment of my Origen and joy we should all appreciate
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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 15 2019 :  1:16:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Kumar ul islam, As always you cut to the deeper issues. Being in the midst of a powerful personal transformation your message speaks to me clearly. I do have some fear the more beautiful dawn you speak of may be a myth. We are ultimately talking about faith here. This seems trapped in a dualistic mindset and also seems to me an ultimate trap as giving up something we enjoy in the present (cookies or sex) for this ecstatic bliss/divine love requires some pretty profound sacrifices before one knows one is on the correct path. I worry this shift from pleasure in the present to a more amazing pleasure in the future is just another form of attachment.
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kumar ul islam

United Kingdom
693 Posts

Posted - Oct 15 2019 :  2:31:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes the truth is another framing of our experience or understanding an example would be knowing the earth is a sphere and not flat this allows for expansion of ones consciousness the same goes for knowing ones own patterns of behaviour a constant gathering of newness propelling and motivating forward momentum towards more expansion and so on ,this is the wonder of being human a constant longing fulfilled or satiated for a time then more desire this can be liberating or just another form of suffering ,renouncing each desire as it comes and is satiated or not can be playful ,when the gopis heard krishnas flute they all answered his call thinking it was only them that was being played to this is an example of how we all feel from moment to moment pulled towards something we have no control over driven by desire in this case it was for divine love ,Krishna always knew that flute would attract every gopi but he played anyway ,the universe will call us to our truth we must grasp it with its seeming attachments and constructs as this is the only way we know and to think that and end game really exists for me is folly as the universe exspands so do we when and if it recedes we recede back to the dot between our eyes or the dot before the Big Bang ,it really is a spectacular moment when you realise freedom lies in accepting all your own failings and joys as everybody else's aswell they are innumerable in number but counting listing and seeing them becomes a wonder it just gets deeper and deeper
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Dogboy

USA
1646 Posts

Posted - Oct 15 2019 :  3:47:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
I worry this shift from pleasure in the present to a more amazing pleasure in the future is just another form of attachment.]


And on this, you continue to sit you eventually witness it for what it is.

Edited by - Dogboy on Oct 15 2019 3:48:22 PM
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lalow33

USA
962 Posts

Posted - Oct 15 2019 :  11:44:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by interpaul

Lalow33,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I realize yoga can't change my wife. I do believe it has given me new tools to change myself. Where I struggle is a more fundamental question regarding how important sexual relations are to our general health. Having achieved non ejaculatory orgasms that are truly blissful I have reached a place of deep satisfaction internally without as much need for outside sexual relations. I wonder if I truly let go of any expectations of any further sexual relations with my wife and went deeper into these practices if this would free my wife from guilt she has related to her lack of libido. Would this free her up emotionally to reengage more with me in other spheres of intimacy. Ultimately are we here on this physical plane to have physical relations or is there a time in life where we can let go of attachment to physical pleasure generated thru sexual relations and instead move deeper inward?



Hi interpaul. I've been celibate for a year and a half. I did have nice opens and think that I wouldn't need sex again. My experience, I was completely wrong.

Take care,
Lori
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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2019 :  1:52:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Lori, I'm not sure if I understand your comment "I did have nice opens and think that I wouldn't need sex again". When you say "nice opens" what are you referring to?

Dogboy, As always your comments are very thought provoking.
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1178 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2019 :  01:21:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam

Maybe the true sense of brahmacharaya is the renouncement of all desire I suppose there are grades from raiding the cookie jar to full on sexual urges but they still remain as sense of need or constructed need ,this leaves us in very difficult position as transcendence leads us to going beyond the impulses that are so prevalent and drive our behaviour attachments or whatever you wish to name them even the most enlightened are willed to act ,the four fountains spring to mind eating ,sleeping ,procreation and survival ,these interlink and appetites are created on the journey in these experiences ,as humans we do have extra sense and a complex way of understanding our predicament we know we know and that's difficult because just over the horizon lies a more beautiful dawn but our own day must finish first but we are forever hanging on to the light from the old day and when the new day comes it's the same but slightly different from the previous ,a step to something but we are never quite sure to what, that's if we are even slightly open to the vast expanse of our potential and the vast potential of the universe that supports our existence ,Krishna says "I hold up the whole universe by a fragment of myself "I suppose that puts having or not having sex in perspective but I am not God and my humanness may transcend the cookie jar at times but I know it's there and dipping ones hand inside reveals a certain fragment of my Origen and joy we should all appreciate



Dear Kumar, you are on fire!
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1178 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2019 :  01:32:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by interpaul

I worry this shift from pleasure in the present to a more amazing pleasure in the future is just another form of attachment.



Dear Interpaul,
From where you are now at, inevitably you will be moving from one type of attachment to another. Unconditional love is also no where in sight.
Consistent long term practice will make you a little less attached and shed more clarity onto your situation - then you can be true to your heart. Don't be in a hurry to rush decisions right now would be my advice.

Good luck


Sey


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interpaul

USA
53 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2019 :  4:50:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
SeySorciere,
Sounds like very good advice which I will take heed.
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lalow33

USA
962 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2019 :  11:38:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by interpaul

Lori, I'm not sure if I understand your comment "I did have nice opens and think that I wouldn't need sex again". When you say "nice opens" what are you referring to?

Dogboy, As always your comments are very thought provoking.




Hey interpaul,

Nice opens means loving everything on and off.

I try my hardest to be as real as I can. I'm naive sometimes with spirituality. So I ask common sense friends a lot.

"My wife no longer wants to have sex with me. I'm going to transcend this. What do you think?" A question I'd ask my common sense friends.
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Blanche

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2019 :  08:41:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
This is just another opinion, so feel free to consider it or ignore it. One can “have sexual relations” or “make love.” It is like fast food compared with a never-ending feast that celebrates and nourished one’s entire being, that brings the infinite into reach, opens a window to what we really are. “Having sexual relations” sounds so boring, technical, and uninspiring that it is hard to awaken much interest, especially if one had any taste of the feast. Sexual relations may be a part of making love – or not. Making love is underlined by unconditional love – wishing and acting for the happiness of the beloved. So, the first step toward the happiness of the beloved and our own happiness is to take the “I” out of the picture. When we start with, ”How about me?” “How do I feel?”, “What do I get?”, “What am I missing?”, we set us up for misery. Just shift the questions and replace the “I” with “the beloved”. How about the beloved? How does she feel? What could she get? Remember all the times that brought you two together, all the good memories you share, and the joy and happiness that you two experience. Could you feel blessed just to look at the ground where she walks? Could you feel the well of gratitude that you have met her? What makes her smile? What are her small joys and sorrows? The people we love are windows opened to the Divine. They are transparent to us. Could you see IT?

It is easy to lose sight of each other and get caught in the daily routine. But take time to get to know each other again, to “get in touch’ – take a walk together, go out to dinner, go to see a movie or a play, read the same book… Remember the small things that you were doing when you were dating, even the things that seem silly, like taking a shower and wearing a new shirt for a date – remember and do all that again. And then come up with new ways to show your love – be creative. Love is creative – as my friend Elizabeth says, “Being boring is the highest crime.” When you really act for the happiness of your beloved, you will be the first one to benefit.
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