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 Tantra - A Holistic View of Spiritual Development
 Sexual Sublimation Practice Side Effects
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taotanvir

India
21 Posts

Posted - Nov 23 2018 :  12:52:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
So what is happening is that I can cultivate and dissipate a lot of sexual energy for hours at a stretch and my whole body starts to acquire moisture and sweat and what I think is warm chi energy all over the surface of my skin even the legs. But somehow the actual physical semen also shifts in the body from the balls to the bladder I believe as I see it come out in the urine. Now the thing is that I know we cannot transmute the literal seminal fluid we can only sublimate it into energy and at that I am being successful YET I'm losing the actual semen as it is moving to the bladder. The most strange part is that even if I am not close to the point of ejaculation meaning that if I have just become aroused by stroking or thrusting for 2 minutes only even then there is some ejaculate that is rising into the bladder and moving out in my next pee.

Any thoughts?!

Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 23 2018 :  07:43:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Taotanvir,

This is a stage in the process of the transformation of sexual fluids and energy into amrita. Once this stage passes, then you will no longer see semen in your urine, as all of the physical fluids will be re-absorbed into the body.

Once the process of automatic vajroli is happening, even slight energetic practices (tantric or otherwise) can cause the process to continue.

It is nothing to worry about. The more dedicated you are with your spiritual practices, especially with Spinal Breathing and Deep Mediatation, the faster you will progress through this stage.

Christi
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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 23 2018 :  07:51:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
At first, it's just your body getting rid of excess fluids when you deliberately produce more of them. But after some conditioning, it becomes the preferred pathway.

Nature arranged things in that way and there's nothing you can do to prevent the waste of sexual fluids apart from not producing them in the first place.
In any case, not to be celibate isn't as bad as certain traditions sometimes say.
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taotanvir

India
21 Posts

Posted - Nov 23 2018 :  09:40:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Christi & Vimala!

However my main worry is that I have rather been practicing tantric sexual cultivation and in that been doing a lot of the holdback method and have mastered the blocking technique by squeezing the pelvic floor muscles NOT by putting hamd pressure. So as per Yogani's Lesson, I have been executing "mechanical vajroli" which just serves the purpose of putting the sexual fluids in the bladder and has no real gain. I have been experiencing traces of frothy white seminal fluid in my urine for more than 6 months now and don't seem to get over this phase whatsoever. I am scared as this is disrupting my peace of mind and also manifesting into pains in the kidney region. Also I haven't been regular with meditation but quite constant with the practice of non ejaculatory pre orgasmic edging and then using the muscle contractions to avoid loss of semen.

If this is the poor man's vajroli I have made a habit of doing. How do I get back on track and STOP these symptoms from occurring once and for all. Christi I know you've already cleared all the arguments that Ive had BUT what I feel is that natural vajroli is not what ever happened to me only mechanical and the holdback or even in yimes of celibacy I am having semen discharge with the urine.

How to deal with this?!
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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 23 2018 :  10:52:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
In my personal experience, the only way to solve this condition is... to stop ALL forms of meditation, sexual practices, pranayama, etc... Do not try to change meditation practices, prayers, etc.. Just stop doing it.

After some time, the body should heal itself.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 24 2018 :  07:12:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Tao,

Contracting the pelvic floor muscles is one way of blocking the semen from coming out during orgasm. So, it is effectively the same as blocking using the fingers.

Do remember that blocking is just a stage in the development of tantric sexual practices. It is like having the training wheels on when you are learning to ride a bike. Reaching a stage where you can engage in sexual practice without blocking of any kind, and without ejaculation, is the next stage. That is referred to as "pre-orgasmic sex" in the lessons.

To reach that stage you have to stop "edging" as edging will lead to either ejaculation or blocking eventually.

What you are doing is not harmful, but would be far more useful if you could take it to a higher level. Remember that Tantric sexual practices alone are not a very effective way to attain enlightenment. It is only when they are used in combination with an effective daily spiritual practice, including meditation and pranayama, that they become effective in terms of liberation. And the more powerful the spiritual practices are, the more effective the tantric practices become. So, that is the place to focus.

Christi
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taotanvir

India
21 Posts

Posted - Nov 24 2018 :  08:02:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
How can I reach that stage without a daily self-pleasure practice whoch means edging every day. How do I progress from that stage. Pre orgasmic sex without edging. How does one engage in that to move beyond the non ejaculation stage Christi?
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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 24 2018 :  3:07:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply

If you continue your edging practices, you'll continue to fill your bladder with semen. Period.
There are no evidences that it's harmful, but if you experience pain in the kidney area (as you wrote), I bet that something isn't right with what you're doing.

The best thing is to stop your edging practices, at least for a while to give your body some time to recover.
Even if you stop the practice, your body will probably (99%) continue to discharge semen in the bladder for a few days: you need to wait until this process stops by itself.

If you stop edging, but you meditate/go in trance/perform pranayama/whatever, your body won't stop to discharge semen in the bladder.

According to Christi, you should be able to progress through this stage with meditation, but in my experience, meditation will just make it worse and worse.
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taotanvir

India
21 Posts

Posted - Nov 25 2018 :  2:13:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Okay, I understand your point, Vimala.
But I tried leaving my body all alone for a while. A period of 30 days celibacy (no edging nothing not even touching ny penis or anything) YET I still noticed some small traces of whitish frothy substance in the urine all the time. So I HAVE TO AGREE that the body has indeed become habitual or accustomed to that way. Which is why I'm su frustrated and full of angst all the time. I feel like I have literally SELF-DESTRUCTED MY BODY AND PHYSICAL CONFIDENCE and forget about becoming a master at Tantra I am not able to have normal erections any longer in the mornings. My libido has gone down. Before starting the edging/pelvic floor contraction sexual sublimation practices, I had a raging sex drive.

What do you think is the best road to recovery for me Vimala?!
Please find out buddy! I am really stressed out!

Say if I leave all forms of masturbation (edging start/stop even intercourse) basically full celibacy and no meditation or spiritual practices, still the condition wouldn't improve??

I think I have had damage to the kidney/bladder connection area and some prostate issues too. I am only 23!

Please suggest guys!
How do I get back to ejaculating out normally and not retrograding back into the bladder.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 25 2018 :  5:38:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Taotanvir,

quote:
How can I reach that stage without a daily self-pleasure practice whoch means edging every day. How do I progress from that stage. Pre orgasmic sex without edging. How does one engage in that to move beyond the non ejaculation stage Christi?


The process of automatic vajroli, the nectar cycle and the production of amrita can all happen without any tantric sexual practices at all. Simply the flow of kundalini upward through the body can be enough to bring all of these things about once the subtle neurobiology reaches a certain stage of purity. Tantric sexual practices can be used in addition to these things and can make things happen faster if used correctly.

Pre-orgasmic sex does not need to involve edging and it is advisable not to use edging. It is best to stay away from orgasm and away from anything that could be called a "peak experience". That way the cultivation of pre-orgasmic sexual enegry can be cultivated in a more stable way.

quote:
YET I still noticed some small traces of whitish frothy substance in the urine all the time.


There is nothing wrong with having semen in the urine. It is a natural process that happens to many people. The semen will leave the body with urination. What you are doing is assuming that something is wrong and then looking for a solution, when in fact nothing is wrong. In the higher stages of the path, the seminal fluids are absorbed into the body and so will not appear in the urine.

There is no relationship between experiencing semen in the urine and kidney problems. It is best to see a doctor to get medical advice about the pain you are experiencing in your kidneys to find out what the casue of the problem is.


Christi


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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 26 2018 :  03:23:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by taotanvir

[...] YET I still noticed some small traces of whitish frothy substance in the urine all the time. So I HAVE TO AGREE that the body has indeed become habitual or accustomed to that way. Which is why I'm su frustrated and full of angst all the time. [...]



Hi,
I understand how you feel: I've been there too.

The first thing is to assess if you have real loss of semen in the urine, before taking measures.
  • urinary tract conditions: if it appears foamy,turbid, not transparent and you can't see trough the glass. You may have loss of semen in urine (https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/8455490.jpg)
  • minor symptoms: urine appears clear an transparent with little withish objects inside (like snowflakes). Consider it a warning. Stop your meditation practices and take a break from sports: if it doesn't progress to the "foamy urine" stage and if it solves by itself in days, it's nothing to worry about.
  • clear and transparent urine with frothy substance on top. Although it may be an early symptom of some minor physical problem (stress maybe), it doesn't indicate a full discharge of semen in the bladder.



Edited by - Vimala on Nov 29 2018 1:34:39 PM
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taotanvir

India
21 Posts

Posted - Nov 26 2018 :  2:32:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Christi & Vimala!

Vimala, I have not tested the urine in a glass but I see bubbles and foam and even froth and cloudiness in the toilet pot at times. And I wonder what could it be apart from semen. It only started happening to me after I got into this holdback masturbatory practice. Used to edge for hours and breathe deep and slow to transmute the sexual arousal into prana rising from the perineum to the spine with intention.
Later much to my horror, I began noticing this discharge of seminal fluids in my pee. I couldn't believe at first, then I thought how after even after sex with a partner there is some of the ejaculate that clears out with the urine. So I didn't bother. Then as I began sexual cultivation on a daily basis by edging and spreading the energy by taking pauses at high arousal and inhaling the built-up energy as in holdback method. When I was doing this regularly without reaching orgasm and staying much ahead of any sort of climax or ejaculation STILL there was seminal fluid shifting to the bladder amd that's when I thought that it has not much to do with your level of arousal or going too far beyond the point of no return BUT it is more about habit and tweaking your plumbing system which had done to myself. Even 2 minutes of self pleasure would end up some sperm in urine although the orgasm is no where close.

So this theory of staying as preorgasmic is possible doesn't really hold true in my case. Well, i will be pleasantly surprised if this turns out to be natural vajroli as the Tantra people describe it to be but then again it's all speculation.

I hope my body has NOT incurred permanent damage and hopefully I still have time to STOP everything and turn things around as I am very fond of sex and consider my sexuality to be sacred. I also plan to have kids in the future with a wife. I hope my libido amd sexual confidence resurfaces as well. For that I will start meditation, pilates, gym and other exercises. Need your blessings!

And I will soon take a clear glass and test my urine out too. Let's see if it fits into any of the conditions you mentioned.

And will also get a prostate and kidney health examination done. The doctors could help.i remember once I told my doctor about having sperm in the urine but he laughed it off and said that it is simply not possible. So that's your two cents of Western Medicine's perspective on Vajroli mudra or Tantra. Lol!

Thank you guys!
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Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 27 2018 :  11:38:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Taotanvir,

Blocking either with the fingers or using the muscles at the perrineum will cause semen to rise up into the bladder and then be released with urination. So, there is nothing wrong there. It is perfectly natural and is not a problem.

The process of spiritual transformation that can occur due to practices such as pre-orgasmic sex, can cause the process of vajroli to happen naturally, which will result in semen rising into the bladder and being released with urination. So, there is nothing wrong there either, it is a perfectly natural and healthy process.

The symptoms that you describe- bubbles, foam, froth and cloudiness are all indications of semen in the urine. So, nothing to worry about there either.

With yoga, we are not attempting to prevent sexual fluids from rising into the bladder. We are doing practices that activeley causes it to happen. It is a natural part of the process of energetic awakening and the production of amrita (nectar).

You will still be able to have children if you want them. Don't worry! And it will also not affect your sexual life.

You may find these lessons useful:

Lesson T30 - Vajroli Mudra


Addition T30.1 - Another Question on Vajroli


Lesson T60 - Natural Vajroli and Whole Body Ecstasy


Addition T60.1 - Training the Man for Cultivation of Ecstatic Natural Vajroli


Lesson T62 - Orgasm, Vajroli and the Nectar Cycle


Lesson T63 - Natural Vajroli and Amaroli


Christi
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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 28 2018 :  03:35:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree on the fact that yoga and a lot of meditation methods do indeed generate the phenomenon of semen being drawn into the bladder.

IME and by relying on meditation alone (without sexual practices), the process can easily (and in a very short time) progress to a stage in which the presence of substances in urine is comparable to full retrograde ejaculations.

Far from naturally decrease in quantity, this form of discharge can manifest its toil on the body over time with symptoms that include significant decrease of libido and hairloss.

Considering the fact that the process can be reverted and the body restored to normal functioning, it's possible to see how this natural outcome of meditation is not necessarily a good thing as the symptoms disappear.

Although I cannot claim ultimate knowledge on this matter, I feel it's important for the aspiring yogi to be cautious and consider the possibility that the theory may not manifest positively as expected -at least- in certain cases.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 28 2018 :  04:34:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Vimala,

quote:
IME and by relying on meditation alone (without sexual practices), the process can easily (and in a very short time) progress to a stage in which the presence of substances in urine is comparable to full retrograde ejaculations.

Far from naturally decrease in quantity, this form of discharge can manifest its toil on the body over time with symptoms that include significant decrease of libido and hairloss.


If you are experiencing problems with a decrease in libido and hair loss and you are concerned about these things, then you could seek medical advice. There is no known relationship between retrograde ejaculation and either decreased libido or hair loss.

If you are practicing meditation alone and are experiencing the beginning stages of automatic vajroli, with sexual fluids rising into the bladder, but are not experiencing any further progression from there towards the production of amrita in the head, then I would suggest expanding your practice to a more full-scope practice including pranayama, mudras, bandhas, asana practice etc. Meditation provides a good foundation for practice, but as a stand-alone practice it is certainly the slow boat to China and there are many things that we can do to enhance the whole process of spiritual transformation.

Christi
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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 28 2018 :  05:20:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

quote:
Originally posted by Christi


If you are experiencing problems with a decrease in libido and hair loss and you are concerned about these things, then you could seek medical advice. There is no known relationship between retrograde ejaculation and either decreased libido or hair loss.
[...]



I'm not currently experiencing any of those problems. I'm perfectly fine.

But I experienced them in the past and I found their manifestation to be positively correlated with the physical symptoms of the natural movement of semen into the bladder caused by meditation.
I had to figure out how to stop this process that -once established- has a sort of self-renewing quality.

Although there is no known relationship between retrograde ejaculation and either decreased libido or hair loss, it's known that an excessive sexual activity may have a detrimental effect on health that can manifest with such symptoms.
For example, if you have 6 or more ejaculations every day for months, that may be an issue for your body, depending on your constitution.

Since certain meditation methods dramatically enhance the manifestation of this process, I cannot say that they help to progress through this stage. Pranayamas, mudras and bandhas are even worse.

For example, I can tell now (that I'm perfectly fine, according to my physician) that if I start a regime of DM, I will experience natural vajroli in 3 days. If I add the practice of spinal breathing, I will experience it tonight.
And then, it will get worse for every additional day of practice.
I know because I tried it, multiple times.

Naturally, this process is accompanied by many other yogic results such as the arising of ecstatic conductivity and the experience of deep loving states that increment as well with practice.
It pretty much feels like trading longevity for yogic realization.

Obviously, I do not claim to unveil completely the mystery of this physiological process because well... we're all phyisically different, but I feel compelled by my personal experience to inspire caution into the hearts of the seekers.

Edited by - Vimala on Nov 28 2018 07:13:04 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 28 2018 :  09:26:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:

I'm not currently experiencing any of those problems. I'm perfectly fine.

But I experienced them in the past and I found their manifestation to be positively correlated with the physical symptoms of the natural movement of semen into the bladder caused by meditation.
I had to figure out how to stop this process that -once established- has a sort of self-renewing quality.

Although there is no known relationship between retrograde ejaculation and either decreased libido or hair loss, it's known that an excessive sexual activity may have a detrimental effect on health that can manifest with such symptoms.
For example, if you have 6 or more ejaculations every day for months, that may be an issue for your body, depending on your constitution.

Since certain meditation methods dramatically enhance the manifestation of this process, I cannot say that they help to progress through this stage. Pranayamas, mudras and bandhas are even worse.

For example, I can tell now (that I'm perfectly fine, according to my physician) that if I start a regime of DM, I will experience natural vajroli in 3 days. If I add the practice of spinal breathing, I will experience it tonight.
And then, it will get worse for every additional day of practice.
I know because I tried it, multiple times.

Naturally, this process is accompanied by many other yogic results such as the arising of ecstatic conductivity and the experience of deep loving states that increment as well with practice.
It pretty much feels like trading longevity for yogic realization.

Obviously, I do not claim to unveil completely the mystery of this physiological process because well... we're all phyisically different, but I feel compelled by my personal experience to inspire caution into the hearts of the seekers.


Hi Vimala,

What I am concerned about, is that you are experiencing something which is very rare, and which may have some unknown causes, and are presenting it as if it is the norm for spiritual practitioners and to be expected. I began experiencing retrograde ejaculation when I was around 18 years old and practicing tantric sexual techniques when I was around 21 years old. That was over 30 years ago. In all that time I have never come across someone else who reports the experience that you are reporting. In fact, in almost every case, the exact opposite is experienced. People report less energy loss, increased libido, the sudden ability to experience multiple orgasms, ecstasy, increased vitality and so on.

Obviously with any experience there will be a range of experiences between different people, with a bell curve being generated on the spectrum of possible experiences. Most people will be around the middle, but a few will be on either end. It sounds as if you are at one of the extreme ends of the bell curve in terms of your experiences.

There is a tenuous relationship between losing excessive semen and hair loss. This is because semen contains zinc and zinc is one of the minerals used in the production of hair cells. But a healthy diet will contain enough zinc for this not to be an issue. This is why I would recommend seeing a medical doctor or even a nutritionist, to look at whether there could be other issues going on, such as your diet could be deficient in zinc.

The stage of semen being passed in the urine, is just that, a stage. It is something that we move beyond as the process of the nectar cycle moves higher up in the body and soma and amrita begin to be produced. If you avoid spiritual practices such as meditation and pranayama, then it is unlikely that you will move through this stage to the higher stages in the cycle. That is not to say that it could not happen as there can be a kind of "fly wheel effect" where previous momentum can carry us forward for a while. But it is unlikely. So, I would caution against avoiding spiritual practices simply to avoid experiencing semen in your bladder.

And certainly sexual practices should not be taken to excess. For a man, I would advise not ejaculating more than once a week (whether normal or retrograde) and once every two weeks as a maximum would be better.

Christi



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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 28 2018 :  10:35:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

quote:
Originally posted by Christi


What I am concerned about, is that you are experiencing something which is very rare, and which may have some unknown causes, and are presenting it as if it is the norm for spiritual practitioners and to be expected.
[...]



I'm not interested in building a new paradigm to describe this process and I'm not presenting this as something to be expected 100% of the time.
But it's still a possibility.

The mark of a healthy sexual vitality for a male is... the morning erection which appears without sexual thoughts. I'd say that if you lose that with meditation, it's better to stop doing meditation and try another route.

quote:
Originally posted by Christi



There is a tenuous relationship between losing excessive semen and hair loss. This is because semen contains zinc and zinc is one of the minerals used in the production of hair cells. But a healthy diet will contain enough zinc for this not to be an issue. This is why I would recommend seeing a medical doctor or even a nutritionist, to look at whether there could be other issues going on, such as your diet could be deficient in zinc.




My hairs are fine. Normal sexual activity doesn't affect my hairs. I don't think it's about fluids. Well, maybe this specific symptom has more to do with internal winds movement: according to the commentaries of Lahiri Mahasaya, pranayama may have this effect.

I'm just guessing, of course.

quote:
Originally posted by Christi


So, I would caution against avoiding spiritual practices simply to avoid experiencing semen in your bladder.

[...]




There are other forms of meditation that doesn't have such bad effects.

quote:
Originally posted by Christi


And certainly sexual practices should not be taken to excess. For a man, I would advise not ejaculating more than once a week (whether normal or retrograde) and once every two weeks as a maximum would be better.



It depends on age and constitution, imho.
Normal sexual activity doesn't have negative effects on me.

thank you for your replies!
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Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 28 2018 :  4:19:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Vimala,

quote:

The mark of a healthy sexual vitality for a male is... the morning erection which appears without sexual thoughts. I'd say that if you lose that with meditation, it's better to stop doing meditation and try another route.


That could be quite a dangerous assumption to make, as it assumes that the signs of a healthy sexual functioning in males does not change over time and with the progression of the spiritual transformation.

As sexual functioning changes in the body, it can become less about the lower centres and sexual organs and more about a process of continual orgasm rising up through the body to the crown. This is related to the production of amrita in the higher centres.

So, if you find that you wake up without an erection, don't worry, it could be a sign that good things are happening.

Christi
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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 29 2018 :  02:32:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

quote:
Originally posted by Christi

That could be quite a dangerous assumption to make, as it assumes that the signs of a healthy sexual functioning in males does not change over time and with the progression of the spiritual transformation.

As sexual functioning changes in the body, it can become less about the lower centres and about the sexual organs and more about a process of continual orgasm rising up through the body to the crown. This is related to the production of amrita in the higher centres.

So, if you find that you wake up without an erection, don't worry, it could be a sign that good things are happening.




In my previous post I pointed out at the circumstances of meditation taking away the signs of healthy sexual vitality. Naturally, there are other causes which may temporarily or permanently affect the sexual functions and, in my opinion none of them is really desirable. But if one can determine that meditation is the cause, well...

My current understanding of spiritual transformations is based on my personal experience and as it may diverge from other's experiences, the conclusions can be different as well.
For example, in your post you mentioned a specific phenomenon which is orgasmic sensations rising up through the body to the crown: to me, it sounds literally impossible that one can go through such an experience without having -at least- an internal discharge of semen into the bladder during the 24 hrs human cycle, following this manifestation. This discharge causes the urine to appear foamy, turbid, not transparent.

And there's a portion of my mind that absolutely wants to ask you, how do you know that you're not experiencing an internal discharge of this sort? That would require a 24 hrs monitoring, and generally people don't do that for a multitude of reasons.


Edited by - Vimala on Dec 01 2018 03:58:54 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 29 2018 :  03:11:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
For example, in your post you mentioned a specific phenomenon which is orgasmic sensations rising up through the body to the crown: to me, it sounds literally impossible that one can go through such an experience without having -at least- an internal discharge of semen into the bladder during the 24 hrs human cycle, following this manifestation. This discharge causes the urine to appear foamy, not transparent.


Hi Vimala,

Yes, as we progress on the path, the natural sexual functioning of the body changes and the body becomes fully orgasmic 24/7. This does involve sexual fluids being drawn up into the bladder, continuously throught the day. In the beginning, this would be seen in the urine, but in the later stages it is not seen, as the sexual fluids are re-absorbed into the body. This is the case for both men and women.

With a healthy diet, there are no negative side-effects of this happening. The body becomes intoxicated and flooded with ecstasy throughout the day. Drops of ecstatic liquid can be felt dripping from the crown of the head. It is a stage on the path to awakening.

You may find this lesson useful:

Lesson T25 - Sri Vidya - The Fruition of Tantra

"But where does it all lead? What is the end of tantra? What is its fruition? In the main lessons, and here in the tantra lessons also, we have discussed the union of our inner polarities as being the end of all our yoga practice. There are many ways to describe this process - as many ways as there are spiritual traditions in the world. No matter how described, it is the same process of human spiritual transformation. On the level of our personal experience in the body it is the union of our blissful inner silence cultivated mainly in deep meditation, with our whole body ecstasy cultivated in spinal breathing and other pranayamas, mudras, bandhas and tantric sexual methods. On the level of tantric mythological metaphors it is the union of Shiva and Shakti, which corresponds to the direct experiences of silence and ecstasy just mentioned.

The rise of Shiva, Shakti and their final union everywhere within us make up the three stages of enlightenment - First, 24/7 inner silence. Second, 24/7 whole body ecstasy. And third, 24/7 ecstatic bliss, the joining of the divine polarities of silence and ecstasy, yielding an endless outpouring of divine love, which is unity. (24/7 means 24 hours per day, 7 days per week) If you imagine the rise of a conscious ecstatic resonance vibrating in every atom of your body, occurring between every nucleus and its surrounding electrons, you will have an idea of the depth of the transformation. It is an unending cosmic orgasm within every cell and atom in us." [Yogani]



Christi
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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 29 2018 :  04:27:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi.

quote:
Originally posted by Christi


Yes, as we progress on the path, the natural sexual functioning of the body changes and the body becomes fully orgasmic 24/7. This does involve sexual fluids being drawn up into the bladder, continuously throught the day. In the beginning, this would be seen in the urine, but in the later stages it is not seen, as the sexual fluids are re-absorbed into the body. This is the case for both men and women.

With a healthy diet, there are no negative side-effects of this happening. The body becomes intoxicated and flooded with ecstasy throughout the day. Drops of ecstatic liquid can be felt dripping from the crown of the head. It is a stage on the path to awakening.



I can't deny the reality of ecstatic spiritual transformations of this sort as I have experienced some of them on myself, but I've always found discrepancies between what "should happen" and what "actually happens".

For example, it makes sense that at a certain point, with all of those interesting things going on, the bladder completely manifests the ability to absorb semen, but the reality is not consistent with theory.
A practitioner may say that since he experiences this and that (nectars, pleasurable sensations, etc...), as a consequence it must be true that the bladder is now absorbing semen.
But unless one physically observe each and every one of his urines (1)through the medium of a transparent glass (2) during the cycle of 24 hrs (which constitutes the natural human cycle), his assumptions are based uniquely on a theoretical perspective.

This precise theoretical perspective I've found to be inconsistent whith what actually happens.
I've never talked to anyone who physically tested this with a scientific approach as I did.

Therefore, it's rational for me to assume that this approach to spiritual practice may be harmful to some degree and to a (supposed) minority of practitioners -if not to everyone-.

Since in this area we're all responsibles for ourselves, no matter what has been suggested to us by other practitioners, it would be foolish for me to go through a physically debilitating stage sustained solely by the hope that it may eventually end some day.
Obviously, other practitioners may find themselves in different perspectives: here I'm talking about myself and my experiences.

It is possible to avoid the manifestation of orgasmic sensations (which are IME always associated with vajroli) and to proceed to a stage of deep love. That is done fundamentally by actively avoiding deep trance-like oblivious states and avoiding clinging to tactile sensations in the body. Meditation can be performed on the basis of emotion itself to achieve states of love intoxication where it's impossible to contemplate any of the painful human emotions. There's still sexual vitality and the sexual desire is as strong as usual, but somehow less interesting than pure love.
It's not orgasmic bliss: it's love bliss and it feels much better.
It's not that difficult to achieve, but it proves challenging to stabilize.


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Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 29 2018 :  11:12:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Vimala,

quote:
But unless one physically observe each and every one of his urines (1)through the medium of a transparent glass (2) during the cycle of 24 hrs (which constitutes the natural human cycle), his assumptions are based uniquely on a theoretical perspective.


We only urinate a few times each day, so there are only a few occasions when we would need to observe things to know if there was semen in the urine or not. It is not that hard, but also does not matter. With a healthy diet it does not make any difference if the sexual fluids are expelled with the urine or absorbed by the bladder. It is simply an irrelevant aspect of life.

Orgasmic bliss can also be called whole body ecstasy and is a stage on the path. It forms a part of the cultivation of permanently abiding divine love, unity and freedom, which are higher stages.

You may find this lesson useful:

Lesson 113 - Bliss, Ecstasy and Divine Love


As a general note though, everyone is in charge of their own spiritual practice and has to find what works best for them. As you have discovered, cultivating particular states of consciousness is easy when we reach a certain stage in practice, but stabilizing them and making them a natural part of our life, can be more challenging.

Sometimes on the path, we simply have to weather the storms and move through what we fear. Putting up with a bit of discomfort at times can also be a part of the path. It is through the cultivation of whole body ecstasy and bliss and the merging that takes place between the two, that we reach a stable state of divine love 24/7.

It's always your call though!

Christi
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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Nov 29 2018 :  1:33:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
No more AYP for me because retrograde spermatorrhea is way too scary. And in addition, there are no solid evidences that it's a stage of the path and not a deliberately cultivated permanent condition.

Anyway, there's one last bit of information that I want to share here for those who find themselves in troubles: how to heal.
Actually, it's more appropriate to say "how to let the body heal itself".
Consult your physician before trying this.

The body has the tendency and the power to heal itself.
The tricky part is that as long as retrograde spermatorrhea isn't artificially interrupted for a period of -at least- 24 hrs, it won't stop: it's like a self-renewing illness.
The external events that trigger the manifestation of retrograde spermatorrhea are:
1)eating
2)sleeping
3)meditation
4)sex

The prerequisite is to avoid meditation and sex for the recovery period.
The method is simply to fast (don't eat anything) and avoid sleep for 24 hrs.

Then, retrograde spermatorrhea won't manifest and the body enters the recovery period in which it's important to avoid meditation and sex. The minimum recovery period is 1 week.


Edited by - Vimala on Nov 29 2018 2:18:44 PM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3839 Posts

Posted - Nov 30 2018 :  07:55:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Vamila,

quote:
No more AYP for me because retrograde spermatorrhea is way too scary. And in addition, there are no solid evidences that it's a stage of the path and not a deliberately cultivated permanent condition.


It is true that there is no solid evidence that what you are experiencing is a stage on the path. But, there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence. After all, yoga has been practiced by millions of people over a period of thousands of years. If yoga caused people's hair to fall out, then the world would be full of bald yogis! Even if it just caused some people's hair to fall out, we would know about it by now. Enough people alive today can feel the inner winds and the effects of the inner winds on themselves and others, to know how they work and what they do, at every stage on the path.

On the subject of loss of sexual desire, have you ever heard a saint complaining that they lost their sexual desire? Can you find any reference to a saint complaining that they lost their sexual desire? There is a reason that there are no complaints, because it is simply not an issue. Sometimes on the path, we need to have faith, based on the experience of others who have gone before us.

Christi
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Vimala

France
80 Posts

Posted - Dec 01 2018 :  03:16:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

I think we should consider to agree to disagree at this point because this starts to look like an endless cycle.


Edited by - Vimala on Dec 01 2018 4:41:21 PM
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