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 Confused about Samyama
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afonsolfm

Portugal
12 Posts

Posted - Aug 23 2018 :  3:25:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Namaste,

I'm having trouble "remembering" the word Love. Shall I bring the flavor of it? Shall I bring the sound of the word? It's not clear, I'm confused.

lalow33

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Aug 23 2018 :  9:26:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Me aswell. I've talked to a lot of people on here. Most interpret it as the feeling. I don't. I use the word and go back to silence. That's my interpretation. Not sure it's correct. For me, I'd have to switch my attention to a feeling. Sometimes, that happens. Samyama is the most confusing lesson, so you are not alone.
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Dogboy

USA
1643 Posts

Posted - Aug 23 2018 :  10:17:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The way Yogani has it set up, it's the first sutra passed. I'm not sure why you are stuck on the very first word. Whenever I pass it though, I feel it in my solar center, without doing it intentionally, as if opening it for the other sutras to follow.

I often get lost in the middle, Health, Strength, Abundance, and when that happens I pause to recall and then go on from there. I believe we just do, not overthink or shape it if possible. Samyama encourages surrendering, sutras, energy, attachments, and a perfect way to wrap up practice.

Edited by - Dogboy on Aug 23 2018 10:25:13 PM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3593 Posts

Posted - Aug 24 2018 :  01:25:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Afonsolfm and all.

The instruction given in the lessons is to pick up a faint feeling that you associate with each sutra and then release that feeling into silence. That is in lesson 150:

"With samyama, we are initiating meaning in silence. We do it in a simple, easy, systematic way. First we create an impulse of meaning in silence, and then we let it go in silence.

Let's begin with "Love." It is a good place to start with samyama. In samyama it is suggested you use your most intimate language, the language that goes deepest in your heart, whatever it may be.

In your easy silence, pick up, just once, the fuzziest feeling of the word "Love" in your own language. Don't deliberately make a clear pronunciation, or mental images of this or that scene or situation that represent Love to you. Just have a faint remembrance of Love, and then let go into your silence, the easy silence you are in as you pick up the faint meaning of Love. Don't contemplate Love or analyze it during samyama. Don't think about it at all. Just come to it once in a faint, subtle way, and then let go into silence. It is a subtle feeling of Love we are coming to, nothing more, and letting it go. Like that." [Yogani]


Sometimes people are not able to touch upon a feeling of a sutra, in which case it is fine to simply pick up the word as a thought and release that into silence. The feeling and meaning of the sutra will be contained in the word. Over time, as inner silence deepens, it will become easier and easier to touch upon a faint feeling and release that, without actually thinking the sutra.

Christi
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yo_gi

Germany
42 Posts

Posted - Aug 24 2018 :  2:38:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Afonsolfm... I came across the very same problem... I started samyama with the sutras being simply the thoughts of the words... then during a retreat I was "trying" to release the sutras as being a feeling.. I tried to create the way it feels when silence moves - for example with the sutra "radiance",I tried to make silence move like I did once in the past so I tried to remember this feeling to recreate it... you know what... that was not it (at least not for me)...so I came back to my "old" way of releasing the sutras in form of thoughts...but after having had this little digression in this misleading different approach, I saw that the thoughts themselves have already become "subtle feelings"... that wasn't obvious to me before... it feels like the beginning of the process when the thought is forming...not yet crystallized... and it goes... as if it's released before it becomes a "real" thought but you already know that this the sutra...much like when something is released during the day...when something is about to form and somehow you know where this process is leading and how the evolution of the dynamics will unfold...you just let go of it before it manifests further (especially helpful with anger or stuff like that)...
I think it doesn't matter if we start with the "superficial thought" if this is where we are... from there the process will naturally gravitate to more refined versions of the sutra...I also think that all those words "feeling", "thought", "faint remembrance" are just attempts to describe our personal possibility to induce motion in silence...the way we talk to silence... of course we have to start somewhere and of course there are advanced yogis who have gone deep into silence and have written down progressive ways to achieve results and that can help us a lot... but in the end the guru is in you and will lead you to ever deepening levels... I asked one of those yogis - does silence know anyway? - and he said: <yes, silence knows anyway...it's more about the release>
silence knows anyway ! ...
what once where the names of my parents, are now subtle impulses coming from the region of my heart, having a little bit of the desire that I want them to be healthy and long-living mixed with the love of a child...and that fuzzy mix is my mom- and my dad-sutras at these days...it is, because it's the most easy way for me to tell silence...I think that is the thing - silence knows anyway what we mean...so as soon as we know, we just have to let go of it (whatever that fuzzy thing may be and whatever we call it)...we can talk to silence by letting go and we don't need to say much cause silence knows anyway..a yogini once wrote (analogously) that it is more effective to channelize a river close to it's spring instead of out in the field... so the closer we approach to silence, the sooner we let go of this subtle whatever that we created as our sutra, the more will come out of it... so I guess all I want to say is let your inner guidance lead you - you cannot fail - silence knows anyway so we can trust and let go of all the extras more and more - and the more we can let go the closer we come ... and with more and more inner silence we will be able to talk more quietly...and on and on it goes...

PS: SILENCE KNOWS ANYWAY

I really like that
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lalow33

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Aug 24 2018 :  11:22:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm more confused after reading the replies. Can't ya just say the experience changes. If you are silence, (in my experience). your attention has to switch to create the feeling of the word love. To switch attention or not? Hum...
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Christi

United Kingdom
3593 Posts

Posted - Aug 25 2018 :  04:55:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Lalow,

Yes, you will need to switch your attention away from silence to the faintest feeling of the sutra, and then relaease that back into silence. Like that, every 15 seconds.

If you are merged into silence, then as soon as you notice that you are off the procedure, you touch upon the faintest feeling of the next sutra and release that into silence and so on. So, the practice can last for longer than 10 or 20 minutes. It is fine if that happens.

Christi
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lalow33

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Aug 26 2018 :  4:12:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Where do I shift my attention to? I'm at a point where I could be a thought not so sure about being a feeling? Probably whatever shift happens?
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Christi

United Kingdom
3593 Posts

Posted - Aug 26 2018 :  6:10:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Lalow,

If you can shift your attention to the faintest feeling of the sutra and then let that go into silence, then do that. If you cannot, then simply touch upon the thought of the sutra and release that into silence. The feeling (and meaning), will be contained within the thought.

Keeping the whole process as simple as possible is the best way to go. It will refine naturally over time until it becomes a natural part of daily life, happening 24/7, with thoughts and feelings all being released into silence quite naturally. The silence becomes the foreground, with everything else arising and dissolving into that, without any effort.

Christi
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lalow33

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Aug 26 2018 :  7:24:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi, I ain't got an energy body to go and feel a feeling. I might be able to be a thought flow. But the lesson is super confusing. For Real! Thoughts or feelings for a newbie? What do you say?
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Christi

United Kingdom
3593 Posts

Posted - Aug 27 2018 :  12:38:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Lalow,

quote:
Hi Christi, I ain't got an energy body to go and feel a feeling.


I think you are overcomplicating something which is really quite simple. If you can pick up a feeling and release that into inner silence, then pick up the feeling. If you can't, then pick up the word and let that go. Gradually the whole practice will refine over time.

If it feels too difficult for you now, then I would say to leave the practice out and come back to it later on. It will be very intuitive and natural when the time is right.

quote:
Thoughts or feelings for a newbie? What do you say?


Samyama is quite an advanced practice, which requires the cultivation of the witness as a prerequisite. So, it would not be appropriate for a newbie.

Christi
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lalow33

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Aug 27 2018 :  02:43:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Nope, you are complicating the practice, don' t put it on me. Word or feeling??? Is it word or feeling. What do you say??
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Christi

United Kingdom
3593 Posts

Posted - Aug 27 2018 :  03:34:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Lalow,

If you are not sure, then simply pick up the word of the sutra as a faint idea and let it go into silence. That would go for anyone who is not sure if they should be picking up a word or a faint feeling. It will work and the experience will deepen over time as we settle in with the practice and inner silence deepens.

This is discussed in lesson addition 151.1:


"The original instruction for picking up a sutra in samyama in sitting practice is to pick it up at a very faint and fuzzy level. This can also be interpreted to mean "the energy before the thought."

Few can do this in the beginning, so we go through the procedure in fairly external and clunky ways in the mind for a while. But, in time, the procedure refines, as is the case in all practices, and then we are touching the sutras before they become objects in the mind. And, yes, then we have access to much more energy in practice ... and in daily activity as the habit of samyama becomes gradually more prevalent in our everyday life.

The more we are picking up pre-thought, the more powerful samyama is, and the less we are grinding on gross thinking in the body-mind. This is a natural evolution that comes with deep meditation (cultivating the witness) and samyama (cultivating action from within the witness). It can't be forced. In the AYP approach there are no commands to stay pre-thought, as you are suggesting. No additional manipulation in the mind. It happens naturally. It is an evolution in stillness. We just favor less, and less will gradually come." [Yogani]



See these lessons also:

Lesson 151 - Samyama - Settling in with Your Sutras


Lesson 152 - Thinking about Meanings versus Doing Samyama Practice


Christi
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lalow33

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2018 :  12:02:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi, you ain't understanding. What I'm saying is my awareness or whatever goes to a thought flow, sparkling awake thought flow. There's not a way to feel a feeling in a body except a mental body. I'm gone by spinal breathing. Mantra is space then being the mantra then space. It's very nice. Currently, I could be a thought flow, but I couldn't feel something in my body during practice. Tell me what you are talking about! Being the thought flow is micro-unity. What's wrong with thoughts????
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lalow33

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2018 :  01:28:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I've talked to a few AYP members, and they don't get what I'm talking about. Anyone ever been wide awake in their thoughts (during practice). I can't be solo on this. Yogani?????
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1177 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2018 :  02:40:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Lalow,

I’m afraid I don’t get what you are talking about either but perhaps I can share my experience of Samyama and perhaps something useful will come out?

“Wide awake in my thoughts” I interprete as Witnessing my thoughts i.e. sparkling clearness of Consciousness is watching energy arise out of it, floating by as a thought stream and sinking back into it. Is that what you mean?
Now into that sparkling clearness of Consciousness, I introduce a hint of a sutra “Love” - this results in a small thought ripple of energy about to emerge into a clear thought (and most times it does become a clear thought of the sutra) but sometimes I can let go of that ripple and let it sink back to Stillness before it crystallizes into clear thought.
Now I have micro analyzed the process, which we are saying is not necessary to do when doing Samyama. Just pick up a sutra as refine as you can manage - thought or feeling or intention - whatever is easy for you and let it go and pick it up again after 15s and let it go. Easy is always the key word.

There. If I have complicated it even more, disregard and go on with whatever current understanding you have of the instructions given by Yogani and keep it easy.


Sey


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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1516 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2018 :  02:48:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi lalow
quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
Being the thought flow is micro-unity.


Sorry, but no.
When you are your thoughts, then you are simply being caught in mind stories.
When we are so totally identified with our thoughts, we are not in a position to experience unity. Unity requires a well developed Witness. And when you are in the Witness, you are able to notice the thoughts without being identified with them.

If other AYPers don't get what you are talking about, then perhaps you need to consider the possibility that you are on a different page than everyone else?
This "micro-unity" label you've created for the state of being identified with your thoughts, it bears no resemblance with what "unity" means in the AYP lessons.

It might be that you are going through an energetic overload phase? That can cloud the Witness and make us more liable to relapse into identification with our thoughts. Maybe self-pacing is required. And leave samyama for a while, till the Witness is more stable? Just my two cents.

All the best

Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Sep 08 2018 03:04:56 AM
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lalow33

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Sep 11 2018 :  9:55:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
No one gets what I'm saying. Come on! No one? No access to a body or a spinal nerve(that's all space). Space or silence then I can become the thought. It's the same thing as seeing inside the spinal nerve just awake in a thought, it's blissful. It's a flow with a sparkling awakeness. It's just during practice(not during the day).

Blue, nope to you. You can't understand me 'cause you maybe haven't dropped the body and energy body and just have the mind hanging around? I'm telling the truth. It's not witnessing a thought. It's being the flow of the thought even though you are still space. IN IT.

Edited by - lalow33 on Sep 12 2018 12:02:55 AM
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1177 Posts

Posted - Sep 12 2018 :  01:28:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by lalow33

No one gets what I'm saying. Come on! No one? No access to a body or a spinal nerve(that's all space). Space or silence then I can become the thought. It's the same thing as seeing inside the spinal nerve just awake in a thought, it's blissful. It's a flow with a sparkling awakeness. It's just during practice(not during the day).



I have just described to you above the sparkling awareness. Sparkling awareness can be perfectly Still or can flow as energy in a thought form. So in samyama - don't be and flow with the thought. Initiate the thought form, then drop back to stillness for 15s, then initiate thought form again.


Sey

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jonesboy

USA
594 Posts

Posted - Sep 12 2018 :  11:08:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi lalow

I think I understand what you are getting at so I will do my best to answer your various questions.

quote:
Where do I shift my attention to? I'm at a point where I could be a thought not so sure about being a feeling? Probably whatever shift happens?


When you are doing your mantra meditation, do you notice that the mantra as you go deeper and deeper it becomes more intent, that the mantra becomes energy going outward?

Samayama for me was more about being in silence and then noticing the slightest beginning of the energy of the intent of a sutra and then letting go. As far as attention you are in the silence, that space then staying in that silence try to notice the very beginning of the energy of the sutra, make it as small as possible and let it go.

To me the practice was more about noticing the beginning of the intent of a thought. In daily life this translated to being able to catch ones thoughts when I started to have negative or judgmental thoughts. I was able to let them go easier, quicker.

So again, be the silence and then try to notice the beginning of a sutra, any sutra it doesn't matter and as soon as you notice it within the silence let it go and return back to the silence. Think of it as a game. How soon can you notice it? How small can you make that intent, the energy of the thought in silence. If it becomes the sutra itself it is to much. It is more like a little rising in awareness and letting it settle back into the silence.

quote:
No one gets what I'm saying. Come on! No one? No access to a body or a spinal nerve(that's all space). Space or silence then I can become the thought. It's the same thing as seeing inside the spinal nerve just awake in a thought, it's blissful. It's a flow with a sparkling awakeness. It's just during practice(not during the day).

Blue, nope to you. You can't understand me 'cause you maybe haven't dropped the body and energy body and just have the mind hanging around? I'm telling the truth. It's not witnessing a thought. It's being the flow of the thought even though you are still space. IN IT.


I would agree with others that what you are experiencing in meditation is a deeper realization of mindfulness. That space is silence that has grown deep enough for you to notice the flows of thoughts and the clarity that comes with that level of silence.

If you are able to notice thoughts as flows of energy in or out of meditation be they silent or not. Then yes, the next step is to reside in those flows which will result in a much deeper level of clarity than the Witness.

The first step of silence in daily life is the Witness, with greater silence one notices that thoughts are flows of energy as you have alluded to the next step is to reside in those flows non attaching. Yes, the clarity is very blissful.

Edited by - jonesboy on Sep 12 2018 11:32:22 AM
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Dogboy

USA
1643 Posts

Posted - Sep 12 2018 :  9:14:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Greetings again Jonesboy! Long time

quote:
If you are able to notice thoughts as flows of energy in or out of meditation be they silent or not. Then yes, the next step is to reside in those flows which will result in a much deeper level of clarity than the Witness.

The first step of silence in daily life is the Witness, with greater silence one notices that thoughts are flows of energy as you have alluded to the next step is to reside in those flows non attaching. Yes, the clarity is very blissful.


Nicely expressed
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1177 Posts

Posted - Sep 13 2018 :  11:56:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Dogboy

Greetings again Jonesboy! Long time

quote:
If you are able to notice thoughts as flows of energy in or out of meditation be they silent or not. Then yes, the next step is to reside in those flows which will result in a much deeper level of clarity than the Witness.

The first step of silence in daily life is the Witness, with greater silence one notices that thoughts are flows of energy as you have alluded to the next step is to reside in those flows non attaching. Yes, the clarity is very blissful.


Nicely expressed




Guys, this is not my understanding. No where does Yogani say that you are to reside in thought energy flows or that this is a deeper form of Witnessing


Sey


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jonesboy

USA
594 Posts

Posted - Sep 13 2018 :  12:44:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

quote:
Originally posted by Dogboy

Greetings again Jonesboy! Long time

quote:
If you are able to notice thoughts as flows of energy in or out of meditation be they silent or not. Then yes, the next step is to reside in those flows which will result in a much deeper level of clarity than the Witness.

The first step of silence in daily life is the Witness, with greater silence one notices that thoughts are flows of energy as you have alluded to the next step is to reside in those flows non attaching. Yes, the clarity is very blissful.


Nicely expressed




Guys, this is not my understanding. No where does Yogani say that you are to reside in thought energy flows or that this is a deeper form of Witnessing


Sey






Hi Sey,

I won't comment on what Yogani say's about it or not. All I can do is share what I have experienced and what is also taught in various other traditions.

After one has reached the Witness stage with increased silence they then notice that thoughts are energy. They may be silent or not flows of energy.

In my experience once one has reached this stage the next step is to reside in those flows. The result is blissful clarity. In Dzogchen this is how one is taught to reside or realize Rigpa.

I would disagree with such statements because there is still a you and flows of energy. With the Witness there is still a you and thoughts that you are observing. Both are still dualistic.

The next stage is one becomes those flows of energy. At this point no longer does one feel energy coming from outside of them. You don't feel energy from others, from places hitting you, coming in from your crown or root or your heart from someplace or thing.

At this point it is all you, it is all within you, everyone, everything is within you. There is no energy that is not you and with it you radiate like the sun. Deeper levels of clarity is what happens at this stage.

Now all of this occurs outside of meditation. I would not recommend that someone try to reside in flows during meditation. Often when that happens one will just get lost in visions. Of course as someone advances along it is a natural part of the process for that to happen.

Now if you wish I can go into more details about when I first noticed flows of energy as thoughts, what those flows really were to me at the time beyond just thoughts. How such things relate to various teachings etc. If you or anyone does wish to discuss it in more detail it should probably be in a separate thread so we don't derail the OP.

All the best,

Tom
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1177 Posts

Posted - Sep 15 2018 :  12:55:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Oh, now I agree with you Tom

Actually, I later thought about you wrote and agreed to the point about a deeper witnessing. It was the going off the Samyama technique that was causing me concern. It is easy for a beginner to read what is said and think it is ok to go off in thought flows .


Sey
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yo_gi

Germany
42 Posts

Posted - Sep 26 2018 :  03:44:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere


this results in a small thought ripple of energy about to emerge into a clear thought (and most times it does become a clear thought of the sutra) but sometimes I can let go of that ripple and let it sink back to Stillness before it crystallizes into clear thought.




Hey Sey …

In my experience it is not „too late“ in those kind of situations but seems to be possible „to come back“ to a more refined version of the sutra. Of course we definitely prefer to release as soon as the slightest dynamic occurs - but although a crystalized thought-form may have already flickered in the mind, I find it more effective (I can tell here from the dynamic that resulted either way) not to release that, but instead “wait in silence” (as far as I can recall that could sometimes even be less than 1 sec) until I gravitated to a much more refined version of the sutra to release. Maybe that works for you, too. Also I found it helpful to remain in an “open” or “constant-release-state” (if that is possible). As if you release and keep on letting go until the next sutra that is then just “added to the flow” or “flowing through” and so on to the next and next and next (instead of having more “release-events” that seem to be closed units).

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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1177 Posts

Posted - Oct 03 2018 :  05:49:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by yo_gi

quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere


this results in a small thought ripple of energy about to emerge into a clear thought (and most times it does become a clear thought of the sutra) but sometimes I can let go of that ripple and let it sink back to Stillness before it crystallizes into clear thought.




Hey Sey …

In my experience it is not „too late“ in those kind of situations but seems to be possible „to come back“ to a more refined version of the sutra. Of course we definitely prefer to release as soon as the slightest dynamic occurs - but although a crystalized thought-form may have already flickered in the mind, I find it more effective (I can tell here from the dynamic that resulted either way) not to release that, but instead “wait in silence” (as far as I can recall that could sometimes even be less than 1 sec) until I gravitated to a much more refined version of the sutra to release. Maybe that works for you, too. Also I found it helpful to remain in an “open” or “constant-release-state” (if that is possible). As if you release and keep on letting go until the next sutra that is then just “added to the flow” or “flowing through” and so on to the next and next and next (instead of having more “release-events” that seem to be closed units).





Dear Yogi - I appologise. I missed this post. However, I'm afraid I am not following your thoughts on this.
This is a truly confusing thread...

I was actually thinking of taking up Jonesboy's offer to engage in a separate thread on Rigpa and witnessing at that level (borderline Unity).

So - if you are reading this Jonesboy - do expand on your thoughts and experience on the topic.


Sey
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