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 Tantra - A Holistic View of Spiritual Development
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Charliedog

1624 Posts

Posted - Dec 12 2017 :  06:06:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Great replies all
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
So, that would be another question that could be put to women, whether orgasm affects the production of amrita? And if so, what kind of orgasm and how does it affect it?



Having read this question, for me it depends on the stage we are in the process. It is possible to have orgasms at all chakra areas.

At a certain stage of inner lovemaking, bramacharya and the flow of amrita there is a choice. To choose for an occasional pelvic area orgasm, gives an extra strong upward flow of amrita, physical easy noticeable, it could bring one in 7th heaven or samadhi for a very long time.

Having said this, it's a proces, the pelvic area orgasm transforms, it's less easy and has no preference to bring the energy down and have a peak experience in the pelvic area. The whole body orgasm is more balanced without high peak and is in a way never ending. This makes it for filling all one needs. It fluctuates, sometimes incredibly sensual with a strong amrita flow, sometimes softly radiating and intoxicating like sunyata mentioned. It rejuvenates all cells of the body, that's the feeling.

With full body orgasm I mean the inner lovemaking allover if this makes sense.
This has nothing to do with sexual intercourse or a partner or so called tantra parties, however we can have that simultaneously of course if that is the preference.

PS Keep in mind that this proces is divine and delicate and I don't have so many English words in my vocabularies as you English natives.









Edited by - Charliedog on Dec 12 2017 06:22:32 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
4105 Posts

Posted - Dec 12 2017 :  07:17:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:

Having read this question, for me it depends on the stage we are in the process. It is possible to have orgasms at all chakra areas.

At a certain stage of inner lovemaking, bramacharya and the flow of amrita there is a choice. To choose for an occasional pelvic area orgasm, gives an extra strong upward flow of amrita, physical easy noticeable, it could bring one in 7th heaven or samadhi for a very long time.

Having said this, it's a proces, the pelvic area orgasm transforms, it's less easy and has no preference to bring the energy down and have a peak experience in the pelvic area. The whole body orgasm is more balanced without high peak and is in a way never ending. This makes it for filling all one needs. It fluctuates, sometimes incredibly sensual with a strong amrita flow, sometimes softly radiating and intoxicating like sunyata mentioned. It rejuvenates all cells of the body, that's the feeling.


Hi Charliedog,

What you describe is the same for men. An orgasm based in the pelvis, will tend to produce a strong temporary flow of amrita. However, repeatedly bringing the energy down into the lower chakras would not be desirable, as it would lower the whole energetic vibration of the body. Eventually it could even stop the natural production of amrita from happening.

quote:
PS Keep in mind that this proces is divine and delicate and I don't have so many English words in my vocabularies as you English natives.



Even a native English speaker is quite limited here. We only have one word for orgasm, and no word for amrita. Yogani once said that just as the Eskimos have many words for snow, one day we will have many words for bliss. I suspect that we will also have many words for orgasm and many words for amrita, to be able to describe the different kinds.


Christi

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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Dec 12 2017 :  10:18:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi


We only have one word for orgasm

Hmmm...I'm not so sure about that...a few derivatives come to mind. #UrbanDictionary
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Dogboy

USA
1973 Posts

Posted - Dec 12 2017 :  10:33:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Bravo everyone! Great information, and thank you Chard for starting the thread, hope your concerns are being touched on.

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Chard

250 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2017 :  12:37:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Well this is a heck of a juicy topic -no pun intended (sorry if my sense of humor is offensive!!
Some great responses! A lot to respond to...
Bodhi, I like your perspective about tantra- I agree that its a practice that extends beyond merely the partners. I also often think of it as two people availing each other their bodies so they can make love to the Divine seen in each other’s eyes.

Christi/Blue/CD/DB/Yogani, thank you!
A lot to absorb...
I never made connection re loss of energy and menstruation although it makes sense. A point was raised re types of orgasms. From my perspective a pelvic orgasm can be energizing while the whole body orgasm depleting-maybe that’s not universal. I heard Sacred Chalis Awakening as another reference for this type of full body orgasm.

Wondering if anyone has participated in any tantra workshops you’d recommend? I’ve got enough on my plate now to do one but would be good to earmark for future.
I get a chuckle remembering that my husband and I participated in tantra workshop on topic of Orgasm, 6 mos after having our second child and were sleep deprived as hell and we started arguing about the electric bill to the point where teacher had to take us out of room and coach us on our budget! Needless to say I absorbed nothing about orgasm but got clarity on our finances! It’s amazing what comes up in tantra work!


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Christi

United Kingdom
4105 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2017 :  07:34:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Chard,

quote:
A point was raised re types of orgasms. From my perspective a pelvic orgasm can be energizing while the whole body orgasm depleting-maybe that’s not universal. I heard Sacred Chalis Awakening as another reference for this type of full body orgasm.


Yogani's advice when it comes to tantric sex, is to avoid doing anything that would be depleting energetically. That means it is up to each individual to decide for themselves what they feel is energetically depleting and what is not:

"If there is no depletion, and an increasing energy flow, then what will a climax in that situation matter? If there is depletion, then it will matter more. What we are doing through a range of means is cultivating the neurobiology to continuously expand in ecstasy without depletion. Both the underlying principle and the practical metric are found in that, and the practice can favor it when we are able to choose in stillness. In fact, the entire process depends on stillness, which is the other half of the marriage of stillness and ecstatic conductivity occurring within us.

The guru is in you. " [Yogani]


from here

Of course, things can change for each individual over time, as Charliedog mentioned above, so what may be depleting for you today, may not be in 5 or 10 years time. Or even in 6 months time.


Christi
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1434 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2017 :  08:40:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I will throw in my two pence. I’m afraid I have neglected the tantra lessons and forum somewhat and there are stuff in this thread that I would have understood better had I paid it the attention it deserved. But from early lessons I got the impression that the techniques applied to men or couples. Like BR, I cannot see how the “hold back”method is applicable to women. Seriously, can someone give a better description how that works for women?
I have lately experienced the whole body orgasm a number of times. I have realized what triggers it for me is a new attraction /connection to a man - not necessarily that this attraction culminates into physical relations. Side effects, as it is happening is giggling. I can’t stop giggling. Everything is suddenly hilarious. It does not result in an immediate energy loss but more radiance like reported. However, what is up must come down. Day one I am extremely radiant, day two I am depressed (is being depressed same as energy loss? )
And yes, normal pelvic orgasm during normal sex does result in an immediate energy loss for me. I will glow but feel drain right after sex.
As for effect on mentruation cycle - I missed that memo . I started AYP at 40 yrs old, my period started getting phased out by 44 and stopped completely by 46 yrs old. I thought it was kind of early to be menopausal (not the case in my family) but did not associate it with practices.


Sey


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Christi

United Kingdom
4105 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2017 :  10:02:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Sey,

The "hold back" method for women works like this: At a certain stage during love-making, when you feel that you are approaching orgasm, and you want to refrain from orgasm because it results in an energy loss, or a loss of sexual fluids which you wish to retain for the production of amrita, then you simply do less of the things that you would normally do to bring yourself to orgasm, or encourage your partner to do less of those things.

In that way you would "hold back" from reaching orgasm. Or, what can also happen, is that you can "hold back" from reaching one kind of orgasm, and instead achieve a higher form of orgasm, as the prana rises up through the body to the higher centres. So what could have ended in a second-chakra orgasm, becomes instead a heart-based orgasm, or what could have been a heart-based orgasm, simply dissolves into transcendence, moving beyond the sexual process all together into Pure Bliss Consciousness.

More from Yogani:

"Favoring pre-orgasmic cultivation is favoring pre-orgasmic cultivation, whether it is genital or higher up. The fact is, we are going to go for what we are inclined toward, and forcing it the other way will not help. But when we have a choice (increasingly with the rise of inner silence), we can gently favor pre-orgasmic cultivation. The tool of holdback works in any situation, always going higher and higher, dissolving in transcendence.

In time, sex expands to become full time ecstatic bliss and almost entirely non-physical, as some of the beautiful posts here have described. Whether we are having orgasms or not in that situation is almost beside the point. We will know what to do based on our own inner process and bhakti. " [Yogani]



And yes, I would say that feeling depressed is a sign of energy depletion. Of course with the whole process of energetic awakening, there are ups and downs in the process, so it is just a case of managing them as best we can.


Christi
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Charliedog

1624 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2017 :  05:05:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Christi for the old threads

Great information. For a long time I didn't know what I was doing after sudden kundalini awakening. These are not the questions we will easily ask to the yoga teacher we just met, and not even later on the journey. It is not easy to express if we just started with inner tantra work. Even many years later at teacher trainings, only the traditional Shiva and Shakti came along and questions never where answered directly. I missed that dearly.

Yogani is however right with this
quote:
We will know what to do based on our own inner process and bhakti. " [Yogani]
AYP answered all my unasked questions, first there was the process then the discovery of AYP.

One of my old favorite books is from Osho. Tantra. It is his translation or perspective on 'Song of Mahamudra" from the Indian mysticus Tilopa. That book gave me many answers, not about the physical side and practice, but about the yoga process behind, the transformation from conditional to unconditional love. I can easily resonate with the books of Osho, he was an important teacher to me.

Quote Sey,
quote:
I have lately experienced the whole body orgasm a number of times. I have realized what triggers it for me is a new attraction /connection to a man - not necessarily that this attraction culminates into physical relations. Side effects, as it is happening is giggling. I can’t stop giggling. Everything is suddenly hilarious. It does not result in an immediate energy loss but more radiance like reported. However, what is up must come down. Day one I am extremely radiant, day two I am depressed (is being depressed same as energy loss? )


Hi Sey,
This could be the moment to practice hold-back/bramacharya. Allowing the sexual energy to rise to the higher centers gives the freedom to be 'radiant' all the time and have the 'inner lovemaking' going on and on. This is not depending on touch or physical connection. We will be complete independent of others, at the same time we will be connected with everyone and everything.

As said the tantra lessons of Yogani are for male and female of high value and useful for couples and to use all by yourself (solo).

Edited by - Charliedog on Dec 15 2017 05:47:35 AM
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1434 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2017 :  07:26:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
[i]

Hi Sey,
This could be the moment to practice hold-back/bramacharya. Allowing the sexual energy to rise to the higher centers gives the freedom to be 'radiant' all the time and have the 'inner lovemaking' going on and on. This is not depending on touch or physical connection. We will be complete independent of others, at the same time we will be connected with everyone and everything.

As said the tantra lessons of Yogani are for male and female of high value and useful for couples and to use all by yourself (solo).



Other activities that trigger it for me is anything that has pushed my Bhakti really high. Like you say -this is not dependent on touch or physical connection, I am not touching myself when it goes off nor do I do so during the course of multi-orgasm that follows until it they die down - I just hold on for the ride (giggling)
As for the radiance after the event - the other day it was so powerful, I could see it a couple of meters in front of me as I walked through the airport. It was so strange, I was practically gliding on air within a sphere of light. time appeared to have slowed down. People simply parted in front of me to let me through, others stopped and stared.

I do not have control on when it will happen either. So like Yogani says - maybe not the most consistent form of practice.

@ Christi - thank you.

Sey
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Christi

United Kingdom
4105 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2017 :  1:41:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
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Chard

250 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2017 :  11:49:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
So speaking of orgasms, on the heels of this thread ironically I had a client the other day discussing with me the different types of multiple orgasms that she has with her “twin flame boyfriend” (literally what she calls him!) and she was talking about crying while having an orgasm and I’ve heard of that referred to as “crygasm.”
I was reminded about being 17 yrs old and having sex for the first couple times with my now husband (my only sex partner) and crying hard feeling like it was a divine sacred experience and feeling so connected to God. In those moments I felt the sacredness of sexual union as a way to connect with God more fully and i think through this realization casual sex with random people was never my style - just never appealed to me.
Has anyone had a crygasm?
Once again grateful for this forum to share safely such personal things.
C
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1729 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2017 :  08:01:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
So in theory, even if a woman is experiencing orgasms, but not losing sexual energy through orgasm, she could be losing fluids that are important in the process of spiritual transformation.


Not something I've ever noticed, apart from lubricating fluids, which occur at the beginning of sex and surely must continue being produced while having tantric sex, otherwise intercourse would be rather uncomfortable!

On the other hand, I've just read in Wikipedia, under Skene glands, that a number of women report losing a significant amount a fluid as a result of vaginal stimulation. Which brings me back to the conclusion that there is no hard and fast rule about the suitability of the hold back method for women.

I think Yogani just hit the nail on the head when he wrote:
"If there is no depletion, and an increasing energy flow, then what will a climax in that situation matter?"

quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
It does not result in an immediate energy loss but more radiance like reported. However, what is up must come down. Day one I am extremely radiant, day two I am depressed (is being depressed same as energy loss? )


I would say that is a bit of an energetic overload. Highs are inevitably followed by lows and we can get this from overdoing yoga practices. When the system is cleaned it will be all peaceful radiance, but in the meantime some emotional swings will occur.
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1729 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2017 :  08:05:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
With the practice of Brahmacharya- sweetness of breath, sweet intoxication has become part of life in spite of being only on Stage 1.5 of Kechari. The transformation is at the cellular physical level as we all know with these practices.


Sunyata, what did you mean by Brahmacharya when you wrote this? No periods? Sexual abstinence? Both?
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sunyata

USA
1481 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2017 :  09:19:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat

quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
With the practice of Brahmacharya- sweetness of breath, sweet intoxication has become part of life in spite of being only on Stage 1.5 of Kechari. The transformation is at the cellular physical level as we all know with these practices.


Sunyata, what did you mean by Brahmacharya when you wrote this? No periods? Sexual abstinence? Both?




Hi Blue,

Hugs.

I'm in a partnership so abstinence is out of the equation. I've already explained the monthly cycle situation in the plus forum. No loss of sexual fluids, letting the energy rise to higher centers as Christi has explained in detail. It has been this way for few years now and greatly enhanced the quality of life.

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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1729 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2017 :  10:05:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
A good advertisement for AYP Plus, Sunyata

quote:
Originally posted by Chard
I never made connection re loss of energy and menstruation


It is not something we can easily observe because, unlike men, who can (with a bit of luck) abstain from ejaculating, a woman cannot directly influence her cycle. The amount of energy the body puts into it can only be reduced with yoga practice. How much energy is saved becomes obvious only when periods reduce or stop.

That is why I think it is useful to hear from women who can compare sexuality before starting on the yoga path with sexuality as experienced by an advanced yogini. And by comparing our experiences, we may be able to figure out what practices make a difference to women. It seems the jury is still out on the hold back method. You'll have to keep an eye on your own energy level. If there is a dip after orgasm, then it makes sense to hold back. If there isn't, not much point bothering with it. With rising inner silence, you will know what is right for you.
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Christi

United Kingdom
4105 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2017 :  11:54:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Blue,

quote:

Not something I've ever noticed, apart from lubricating fluids, which occur at the beginning of sex and surely must continue being produced while having tantric sex, otherwise intercourse would be rather uncomfortable!

On the other hand, I've just read in Wikipedia, under Skene glands, that a number of women report losing a significant amount a fluid as a result of vaginal stimulation. Which brings me back to the conclusion that there is no hard and fast rule about the suitability of the hold back method for women.


Yes, as I understand it, there are at least two different fluids that women can produce during sex, the vaginal lubrication fluid which is produced by the Bartholin's glands and another liquid which is produced by the Skene's glands. The latter can be produced in quite large quantites and is only released during orgasm. A woman can lose a lot more fluid than men can. The most recent studies show that only about 40% of women experience the release of this second kind of fluid.

I believe that the lubrication fluid that is produced naturally is not an issue when it comes to brahmacharya. It is the loss of the second fluid that can be released during orgasm that could be an issue.


Christi
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1729 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2017 :  12:06:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
I think you mix two things, (please correct me if I am wrong) the periodes and the sexuality.

You are not wrong and I mix them on purpose. I do not think you can talk of women Brahmacharya without including the menstrual cycle in the picture. It is a very obvious sacrifice we are making to reproduction, of which the periods are only the visible sign. Between the periods the loss of energy continues, every minute of every day, as the womb prepares itself for pregnancy. And every month it throws all that effort away, only to start over.

In fact, when I first posted on this thread, I was wondering if engaging in sex belongs in the Brahmacharya picture at all when it comes to women. Judging by my own experience, I might have concluded it's nothing but a red herring. But it seems there may be women who do lose energy through having sex, so the picture there appears to be quite mixed.
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1729 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2017 :  12:20:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The most recent studies show that only about 40% of women experience the release of this second kind of fluid.


That's interesting.
What the research does not tell us is whether these 40% of women are the ones who feel energetically depleted after sex. Of course the substance secreted by the Skene's glands is not the perfect homologous to sperm, as the later includes many millions of reproductive cells.
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Christi

United Kingdom
4105 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2017 :  1:06:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi BlueRC,

quote:

What the research does not tell us is whether these 40% of women are the ones who feel energetically depleted after sex. Of course the substance secreted by the Skene's glands is not the perfect homologous to sperm, as the later includes many millions of reproductive cells.


I think it would be safe to say that none of the sexual fluids produced by women are homologous to sperm. However, the important questions would be whether loss of fluids are energetically depleting, and whether it affects the production of amrita and if so, to what extent?

Then of course, there is the broader question of energetic depletion, regardless of any loss of fluids, and how much that effects women.

Certainly more research is needed into the whole subject of brahmacharya for women and it is clearly not as simple as it is for men.


Christi
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1434 Posts

Posted - Dec 20 2017 :  07:06:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think it is the loss of fluids that is energy depleting in women, it is the build up of energy required to climax and of course, depending how active and intense sex was.
And yes, Blue, I agree - I am definitely overloading with my recent highs and lows. Unstable. I am trying to self-pace.


Sey
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Charliedog

1624 Posts

Posted - Dec 20 2017 :  07:29:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Blue,

Thanks, what you say makes sense to me, reading the whole thread again, you showed me the bigger picture

Still it is my believe I personally needed 'hold back' at that time to let the energy rise.

Edited by - Charliedog on Dec 20 2017 07:48:36 AM
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sunyata

USA
1481 Posts

Posted - Dec 20 2017 :  09:09:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent points and explanations everyone.

I agree with Charliedog that hold back method is as equally effective for female practitioners as it is for males. It's part of the inner alchemy for higher functioning of the nervous system. Highly energetic requiring self-pacing at times. Hold back is the natural evolution of the physical body where embodiment happens.

Using hold back vs not using is like flying in Business class vs Economy in an airplane. Yes, there will be turbulence experienced in both as they are in the same airplane. But, there is more spaciousness, lightness and comfort in Business class. Just the overall experience is much sweeter.


Edited by - sunyata on Dec 20 2017 10:56:09 AM
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Charliedog

1624 Posts

Posted - Dec 20 2017 :  10:50:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1729 Posts

Posted - Dec 20 2017 :  1:42:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
I don't think it is the loss of fluids that is energy depleting in women, it is the build up of energy required to climax


That is exactly what my experience points to.
Energy loss through sex has never been a issue for me, ever. The issue is rather the opposite. It's more like there is no vent through which the energy will be released, so it builds up and can become too much. That's the "Enough sex for now" moment, "I need a break".
It's an issue of self-pacing rather than energy loss.
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