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 Yoga, Science and Philosophy
 why there is lots of suffering and pain?
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81 Posts

Posted - Oct 09 2006 :  07:26:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit Athma_Shakti's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:

"I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go
out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.

I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:
"You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber.
"I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"
"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me."

"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES
exist! That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help. That's! why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 02 2007 12:59:29 AM


395 Posts

Posted - Oct 10 2006 :  01:02:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Without pain and suffering life wouldn't be much fun, it wouldn't be a challenge. There would be no obstacle to conquer, no limits to transcend. Without pain, what is pleasure? Without suffering, what is joy? When thinking about God people tend to focus on one half of duality, ignoring the other half. You can't have one without the other. Otherwise there would be no life, no game to play, and we would all be in our primary state of one infinite, indifferent bliss.

People who go to God are the ones that God willed to go to Him/Her. The people that do not go to God are the ones that God willed to not go to Him/Her, not yet.. Having said that, God is inside everyone and everyone is inside God, always.

But I doubt that barber would understand my words, unless God willed it and opened his heart ofcourse :)

Edited by - Chiron on Oct 10 2006 01:22:57 AM
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187 Posts

Posted - Oct 10 2006 :  03:26:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit Maximus's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Originally posted by Athma_Shakti

Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.

From my little understanding, yoga does not promise that sick people won't exist or there won't be abandoned children. It only tells how people can continue to be happy under these circumstances also.
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2072 Posts

Posted - Oct 20 2006 :  1:06:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I got an amazing message from life today!

During the last years I have spent many hours by the computor and received some really good net friends. One of them very special. A woman with many physical problems, one of them kidney stones. When I started a new job in January, I sort of left the internet-communities I was heavily involved in. (I'd say I was a total net junkie.) I offered her to keep in touch IRL, but she declined. Some weeks ago I heard from another friend that she missed me a lot. I wrote to her and said I missed her to, but was not at the computer that much any longer due to work.

Yesterday evening I remembered I hadn't even looked if she had written an answer. Pretty non-polite and non-loving. I should and could care much more for her still... She had answered two weeks ago and I had just not cared about it. I felt bad.

This morning I woke up 4.30 with an enormous pain in my right kidney. I was sweating and vomiting, not knowing how to behave. I have never felt such pain before. After two hours I gathered myself enough to call for advice. I was recommended to go directly to hospital, which I did. Diagnos: kidney stone attack. Of course!

What a direct response. I am really thankful for the lesson. I will immediately contact my friend and apologize.

One interesting experience was also that when I eventually got to my senses during the attack, I started meditating. I managed to control my breathing and go into deep breathing. After a short while I just dug into the pain, watching it, seeing it. It became rather bareable to stay in the pain. Actually, more interesting than disturbing. Sort of "Aha, so that's what physical pain really feels like in the body". And a quarter later the attack faded away. I don't know if it was my acceptance of it that ended it, but I have a feeling it had something to do with it.
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969 Posts

Posted - Oct 20 2006 :  1:29:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit Scott's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply

I hope your kidney stones become better.
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530 Posts

Posted - Oct 21 2006 :  04:03:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit Kyman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
You could say that pain and suffering are the parameters in which we define our body's level of safety.

We identify with our bodies so when our bodies are stretched, pulled, torn, ripped apart, we subjective percieve this tension as pain.

The entire world is constantly contorting. This dynamic destroys and reforms structures of energy. If one totally believes they are a structure then they mentally resign themselve to the fate of the structure. If it dies, the eternal mind feels it dies with it.

If live truly is a bundle of interconnectivity, the pleasure and pain are joined at some point. "You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you". Joined at the ego.

This was the ultimate message in the crucifixion of jesus. It was to break and destroy the "body" and reveal that within this shell is an eternal spirit. Suffering is then trasmuted into joy.

The bittersweet is revealed to be a higher sweet, which is a parallel to love and a higher divine love. The relative self or the split mind, and the absolute self.

I've read poets that say when god looks at the world, it is impossible for him to see death, which includes all forms of fear and suffering. I think they might be onto something, so I will investigate further. :)

Edited by - Kyman on Oct 21 2006 07:36:56 AM
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2072 Posts

Posted - Oct 22 2006 :  08:48:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for your concern, Scott!

I am being given lessons about pain now... Yesterday evening I got once again one of those moments when awareness hit me. Rumi says

We are the mirror as well as the face in it. We are pain and what cures pain both. You would rather throw stones at the mirror? I am your mirror and here are the stones!

"I am so small I can barely be seen. How can this great love be inside me?" Look at your eyes. They are small, but they see enormous things.

My small eyes saw enormous things yesterday. I saw that what I perceive as pain is actually love. Being badly treated by people "causes" pain in me. But the person behaving in a non-loving way, causing pain, are carrying that pain themselves as a heavy burden. They have chosen to incarnate as pain-holders/givers - it is their karma - and by playing that role... they give enormous gifts to all persons that they cause pain.

Pain is the doorway to God.

If I was not given that pain from those wonderful persons I would like this world much more and I would not have any longing for uniting with God. If I did not constantly confront with people giving me pain I would have no cause to look deep inside myself to see my own karmic patterns. It is love! The pain is given as a gift of love. It says "Look - you are afraid of this and that, it hurts you... Please, stay in the pain and see it! Feel it! Know it for what it is! It is a fear in you. When you loose that fear, you will understand that you have been home all the time!" The more pain a person carries - the bigger the saint he or she is! It is hell to walk around as a pain giver in this world. And those souls gladly do that job to humbly serve humankind. We all give eachother pain in different ways. Nobody is free from that role, but some play it better than others. Some carry bigger burdens of pain.

For example, I saw all my partners actions as sacrifices from his side. He says "Look, all this, I do for you. Because I love you." And I felt the love in this pain-game between humans. It is pure love. All of it.

I guess that is what buddhists mean when they say that

When we fully face, accept, and lighten the self-amplified sufferings of our lives; when we begin to experience life beyond our delusions and confusions, beyond self, beyond culture, beyond knowledge--what we find is not a meaningless universe of alien forces, but our true home.

Life is real. Reality is good. Goodness, gratitude, love and joy are the natural state of the awakened heart.

I am not able to express my gratitude for my partner and all persons around me who has given me pain. It is huge. Thankfulness! For life! It is a remarkable thing, life. I am in awe.

There is no pain. Pain is love.

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395 Posts

Posted - Oct 23 2006 :  03:06:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
[94:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[94:1] Did we not cool your temper?

[94:2] And we unloaded your load (of sins).

[94:3] One that burdened your back.

[94:4] We exalted you to an honorable position.

[94:5] With pain there is gain.

[94:6] Indeed, with pain there is gain.

[94:7] Whenever possible you shall strive.

[94:8] Seeking only your Lord.

Sura - 94 Cooling the Temper (Al-Sharrhh), Al Quaran
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351 Posts

Posted - Feb 02 2007 :  12:59:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
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