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KarenVic

Canada
67 Posts

Posted - Nov 12 2015 :  5:46:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
I'm not sure where to post this, but need some feedback.
I am celibate, and focusing on raising kundalini and feel sexual desire, but it always brings up thoughts and images of a long lost love. In fact the only way I can get sexually arroused is to think of her.
But she is married, and this is lustfyl fantasy. Yet in my heart when I reach out to God in love, in my greatest desire, it is her I ache for. It's wrong to think of her because she is married.

What to do here? I feel very confused, Bhakti and Ishta, I ache to be whole, feel bliss again, stay I that expanded state. I try to make it more neutral, I imagine just light or a chime, but I can still see her smile.

Please give me practical feedback, than you
Sat Nam

Dogboy

USA
2242 Posts

Posted - Nov 12 2015 :  7:40:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Karen,

It is not wrong to think of her, to use her image to stir up arousal as a divine substitute as you reach out to God. An ishta is a channel for offering up, of releasing. Her image, your memories, can be a useful tool in that sense. What you cannot do is act upon this attachment, to contact her in any way for it would not turn out well for you or her. You cannot relive the past, you know that is true. Another thing at play here are these unrequited emotions bubbling up as your practice purifies your neurobiology. As with any buried emotion that surfaces, it is best you acknowledge and examine these feelings, experience them as they are and then let them go, over and over, if necessary, until it loses its grip on your Self.

This is a phase, a part of your spiritual journey. Witness and testify, and stay the course. If you ache, then ache fully and offer it up. If you remember the love, enjoy that and offer it up. None of that is wrong or should be repressed. Your love for her will mutate into something better for you. This will not be easy, but your confusion and your attachment will ease. Good luck, things will get better as you go.
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KarenVic

Canada
67 Posts

Posted - Nov 12 2015 :  8:42:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dogboy
Thank you for your note, I truly appreciate the guidance and your compassion. I will dive back in with enthusiasm and surrender.
God bless you
K

Edited by - KarenVic on Nov 13 2015 11:17:44 AM
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So-Hi

USA
481 Posts

Posted - Nov 13 2015 :  10:32:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
It may not be wrong in the sense of right or wrong in an moral way of thinking to think of another in this way but you are harming yourself if you do so so on purpose.

Anything you hold in your mind with strong desire and amplify it with your imagination over and over again when it can not be, will only lead to suffering.

This type of behavior can lead to action, or you will become in agony restraining yourself from interfering in this persons life. So in this way it is very, very bad advice.

You need not work your emotions and mind into a frenzy over this thing or that if you will but easily favor the practices pure Bhakti untainted and un-modified by purposeful intent or emotion or forbidden lustful titillation will come.

The object of affection is not desirable for it's own sake.

The desire for another person is the same.

We are all seeking that which is the supreme it is that alone which makes all the innumerable things and considerations and emotions and whatever can be imagined desirable.

Seek that and know divine satisfaction. The way is to easily favor the practices.

Please do not torture yourself. You deserve so much better than that.

Allow the practices to fulfill you making an Ishta out of a human being like this is incorrect.

An Ishta is the Avatar of the Paramaatma a Person wishes to follow to attain liberation. Lord Jesus, Lord Krishna, Lord Shiva, Divine Mother as Durga or Kali all of these are correct examples Ishta.

The Formless aspect of God is not always easy for people to get. This reality can be a bit too abstract at first.

God takes many forms do not be confused by the form seek that which is beyond, behind and within all forms.

Seek that which animates and makes alive the smile and lights the eyes on that one day, will be corpse which has become the object of affection.

So God has revealed God to you and the deep affection for the woman is actually your deep affection for God be aware God is within you and all you will ever meet seek that know that be that and you will know true love with everyone and your own self become complete to the extent you can cope with it.

Whatever you see in Sadhana is good that is God smiling at you using a familiar form you recognize this does not mean focus on that, you just easily favor your practices, if you are trying to be neutral just see light or whatever then you are complicating things and getting in your own way just easily favor the practices.

God is formless but also has form everything you can imagine and quite a bit you may never imagine is indeed God in form.

You are God in form. We are all God in form.

This sounds like you can and should make an Istha out of everything but that is just not so. When I need a mechanic I do not seek the help of the fellow who cuts the grass for a living I go to the mechanic.

When you seek liberation then you seek the aid of a divine being who can help, you do not seek help from one who is in the same water drowning no you look to the rescue person in the helicopter lowering the rope.

If you see the smiling face smile back and return to easily favoring the practice. How many times it comes up is how many times you easily favor the practice.

Easily favoring the practice does not mean to ignore anything on the contrary it means to accept everything and favor the practice.

Favoring the practice does not mean not favoring something else.

It does not mean turn your face away from something else, "easily" this means without effort or strain or forced intent, favor the practice.

Lean into the practice even if there is something else going on again and again and again all of your answers are within.
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1553 Posts

Posted - Nov 14 2015 :  02:04:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear KarenVic,

A very interesting question which I hope will spark debate. I too would love to hear others' opinion. I have given this a lot of thought as well. And here we have two quite opposite anwers. I favour Dogboy's view. You can make your passion /love for this lady your Ishta. Let her be your Divine Goddess. And we are talking Divine Goddess (not a whore) , so worship.
I believe, in this case, "the mechanic" is in you. So it does not matter if you go to the grass-cutter as long as Bhakti brings out the Divine in you. Just like there is no fake Guru, just followers with not enough Bhakti.


Sey
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Charliedog

1625 Posts

Posted - Nov 14 2015 :  03:30:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
My own experience in this,

I felt so much love (Bhakti) for my teacher. At the same time I knew it was not personal, but when I looked in his eyes, there it was, that what I was looking for.

Very confusing it was.

I know he was my Ishta, until I felt that Ishta was inside me and everywhere around.


Edit: I just received the horrible news from Paris, and one of the things that came to my mind, a terrorist is filled with very strong Bhakti, so strong that he is capable to do these terrible things.....

Just my opinion




Edited by - Charliedog on Nov 14 2015 04:20:56 AM
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Omsat

Belgium
267 Posts

Posted - Nov 14 2015 :  04:20:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
KarenVic, my practical advice would be to quietly inquire into the frictions you experience with your chosen Ishta(s) and let the enquiry rest as in samyama. In this you may meditate on the service quality of the expression of your devotion.



quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

Dear KarenVic,

A very interesting question which I hope will spark debate. I too would love to hear others' opinion. I have given this a lot of thought as well. And here we have two quite opposite anwers.


Sey




quote:

It is not wrong to think of her, to use her image to stir up arousal as a divine substitute as you reach out to God.


The bold part in Dogboy's reply is important, Sey. So-Hi's post is an important contribution and reminder when this part is forgotten.

Both answers are valid. Both Ishtas can work similarly in the subtleties of transformation to the degree they bring forth the same level of evolution. This is because both Ishtas are the same in the ultimate experience of them.

Notable differences are in the potential material manifestations. So-Hi foresees common potential drawbacks in this regard and gives what seems to be a shortcut in the event one would fall into some of them.

Freewill should always be considered. If the woman (and/or her husband) in question would find the manifestation of Karen's devotion less than welcome, it's not advised to engage in the particular manifestation of devotion as this knowing could bring forth much friction. So, it would be advisable to ask first.


Note there are several points addressed in different posts, some overlap, some go beyond.

- The societal/cultural perspective (addressed by Karen):
quote:
It is wrong to think of her (a married woman) <in a way that brings sexual desire>
. This is a mere belief but if the people involved have it, it will bring forth consequences which may not be desirable. The practical advice here is to know the beliefs of the persons involved and whether they can blend together or whether they will conflict.
- Expression of sexual desire. ("The only way I can get aroused is to think of her".) So-Hi warns for pitfalls seeking in this arousement for its own sake (rather than cultivating the habit of redirecting it to Ishta):
quote:
Anything you hold in your mind with strong desire and amplify it with your imagination over and over again when it can not be, will only lead to suffering.

This depends on the perception of the reality of the imagination and whether it goes hand in hand with physical manifestation or not.
- The major point of overlap in the first three posts is the transformational potential of Ishta. This is where it's all about. If the emphasis is on cultivating redirection of any desire to Ishta Itself, the same transformational potential is present regardless of the Ishta. The chosen Ishta and the way longing for it manifests may take a new form as transformation takes place.




Edited by - Omsat on Nov 14 2015 04:30:47 AM
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Omsat

Belgium
267 Posts

Posted - Nov 14 2015 :  04:42:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog

My own experience in this,

I felt so much love (Bhakti) for my teacher. At the same time I knew it was not personal, but when I looked in his eyes, there it was, that what I was looking for.

Very confusing it was.

I know he was my Ishta, until I felt that Ishta was inside me and everywhere around.


Edit: I just received the horrible news from Paris, and one of the things that came to my mind, a terrorist is filled with very strong Bhakti, so strong that he is capable to do these terrible things.....

Just my opinion





We cross posted :)
Your post contains everything in a short sharing of personal experience and reflection!
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Dogboy

USA
2242 Posts

Posted - Nov 14 2015 :  06:39:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
SoHi is absolutely right that these explorations do not belong in DM; when off the mantra return to the mantra, that is how the practice was designed. Fully experiencing the emotions suppressed and releasing them should be done on ones own time not while in DM and not spelling out this distinction is where my advice was incorrect. I apologize to you Karen if I added to your confusion. I did not mean to suggest you make your lover a golden calf to which you worship, only as a channel of surrender so that you can transmute your conflicted feelings.
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alecpeace

USA
95 Posts

Posted - Nov 15 2015 :  11:19:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
KarenVic, it seems you have a strong sensory attachment that has nothing to do with the actual person. You are just lustful, as you said.

Be careful where this path may lead. It could very easily halt your spiritual advance right in its tracks until you learn to let go of selfish attachments and not seek ultimate pleasure coming from the senses. True freedom comes from expanding compassion from the heart, non-attachment to anything and living in the moment.

Sensory attachments are a purely human conditions not existing in the higher realms. To break free from the cycle of death and birth you need to break free of everything that holds you here. So, take a higher position, see the bigger picture and don't get bogged down in the simple material, a.k.a. the mud. A simple exercise you can do with eyes closed is to imagine you and her standing next to each other and a thick cord connecting you both at the belly region. Imagine taking a large knife and slicing that cord in half with one large swoop, then imagine the cord pieces detaching and falling to the ground. Finally, let this woman float away into the light and away from you forever. This will sever the energetic connection between you permanently.

But, you also said you are a celibate. Are you sure this isn't yet another reason for sexual tension? maybe you need to release, know what I mean? A long-term build-up of energy has to go somewhere otherwise it just keeps on building. Your spiritual practice is clearly not at the level where you can do a full release yet using formal practice.


Edited by - alecpeace on Nov 15 2015 11:24:13 AM
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1553 Posts

Posted - Nov 16 2015 :  01:00:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Omsat for your balanced outlook on things - very wise words. The emphasis is indeed on cultivating redirection of any desire to Ishta Itself, the same transformational potential is present regardless of the Ishta.
So-hi is also expressing very good guidance. I am only hesitant on the part where he is advocating correct forms of Ishta.

"Allow the practices to fulfill you making an Ishta out of a human being like this is incorrect.
An Ishta is the Avatar of the Paramaatma a Person wishes to follow to attain liberation. Lord Jesus, Lord Krishna, Lord Shiva, Divine Mother as Durga or Kali all of these are correct examples Ishta."

Will KareVic suffer because of his imagined, un-requited love? Yes. That's the point...ah, the sweetness of suffering, when one knows how to re-direct it into a longing for God. "Let me suffer or let me die" - St. Theresa.

More interesting is Charliedog's contribution:
"...I just received the horrible news from Paris, and one of the things that came to my mind, a terrorist is filled with very strong Bhakti, so strong that he is capable to do these terrible things....."

How do we qualify the Bhakti that drives a terrorist to blow up himself and others??


Sey
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jonesboy

USA
594 Posts

Posted - Nov 16 2015 :  08:53:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by KarenVic

I'm not sure where to post this, but need some feedback.
I am celibate, and focusing on raising kundalini and feel sexual desire, but it always brings up thoughts and images of a long lost love.
In fact the only way I can get sexually arroused is to think of her.
But she is married, and this is lustfyl fantasy. Yet in my heart when I reach out to God in love, in my greatest desire, it is her I ache for. It's wrong to think of her because she is married.



Hi Karen,

Congratulations on your depth. On feeling the ecstatic energy. I just want to say that what you are experiencing is normal.

As you know, once we get to a certain level of depth the prana turns ecstatic as it flows through us. For those not familiar it can feel very sexual and orgasmic... It feels really good.

This is important for you to understand.

The reason you are feeling the energy is because it is hitting on your attachments.

Ecstatic energy is just like any other energy that we feel and how we interact with it on a normal basis. What I mean is.. You are feeling the energy in your body. It is hitting upon issues, or creating a feeling. In this instance sexual feelings because of the nature of the energy. This feeling pulls up images in your mind.

Just like when we are feeling bad. It is an energetic feel to it. That energy creates mind stories that we get lost in. TPP teaches us to let go of the mind story and to reside in the energetic feel.. right?

Do the same here.

When you feel the ecstatic energy just let it flow. When or if any images come up.. know that it is a visual representation of your attachments. Observe the visions without trying to control or change it. Feel the energy without trying to grasp or change it.

The lesson is all about letting go.

Don't try to control the vision.. Don't get lost in the mind stories.. just let it all go and observe.

You will find that the energy increases, that the visions will continue with the story as you practice. What you will also notice is the energy beginning to remove the obstructions. You will notice the pain and loss becoming less and less.

It is normal to feel love or lustful towards those we have connections with. It is ok.

Feeling sexual energy or desires towards another person is normal. Getting to the point in spirituality where the energy becomes ecstatic as it flows through us is normal also.

If you continue with this you will find the energy goes away with regard to that issue. That issue will no longer become ecstatic or feel sexual. The images will no longer bring up your lost love. That is not to say it won't find other issues to rub up against With increased depth the sexual energy changes, Yab Yum occurs and the energy changes to increase ones silence during the day.

It is truly a beautiful process so enjoy the energetic experience and don't get lost in the mind stories!

You are doing amazing,

Tom

Edited by - jonesboy on Nov 16 2015 10:14:16 AM
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Omsat

Belgium
267 Posts

Posted - Nov 16 2015 :  1:33:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

Thank you Omsat

How do we qualify the Bhakti that drives a terrorist to blow up himself and others??


Sey




Thank you, Sey.

I will enjoy answering your excellent question with the example of one of the most remarkable and well-known devotees of the later centuries: Ramakrishna, whom became Vivekananda's guru.

Ramakrishna, whose devotion is most memorable, was stuck in his chosen Ishta (the living form of Kali) as his great attachment to Her made him forsake the realization of the Formless/Brahman.

This was until he met a yogi, named Tota, whom tried in repeated vainless efforts to help Ramakrishna, only to hear Rama saying that he wouldn’t care for Enlightenment: "all I want is Ma Kali".

Tota, the naked yogi, whose eccentric presence Ramakrishna enjoyed, kept explaining to Ramakrishna that he had all the energy required to go beyond, if only he could apply this amazingly cultivated devotional energy into awareness. Now he was only applying his energy into his emotion (ecstacy, devotion for Kali).

Ramakrishna complied to meditate on ajna chakra, but would lose himself in ecstacy every time his beloved Kali appeared.

Finally, Tota lost his patience with Ramakrishna and cut his ajna chakra open (literally, so the story goes) while telling him to meditate forcefully there and cut the image of Kali should she appear.

At once, Ramakrishna realized the Formless, maintaining the transcendental experience, his Enlightenment.


As this example illustrates, devotion without awareness/inner silence can be a dead end, whether the chosen Ishta is an accepted figure as Kali/Buddha/Jesus/Allah etc. or a not so common one, like that particular person we fall in love with.

This is one of the reasons most religions and spiritual systems have some variant of yama/niyama in their system. And why emphasizing inner silence in spiritual practices is of utmost importance.

Besides the moral component, in the case of terrorists, the inner silence component of practice is also missing, while doctrinal beliefs are repeated by external decision makers with a strong political agenda, re-inforcing the blind “devotion”.

Choosing one’s Ishta carefully makes much sense, as So-Hi wisely pointed out and a society will favour some Ishta’s for its prosperity over others.

Edited by - Omsat on Nov 16 2015 1:53:56 PM
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jonesboy

USA
594 Posts

Posted - Nov 16 2015 :  2:47:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Omstat,

With much love..

I don't understand this story. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Ramakrishna was already experiencing silence.. one has to, to experience the ecstatic/Samadhi states he was experiencing.

I am also not sure how opening his 3rd eye even more was suppose to help him to reside and observe.

If anything the story shows that the fact that because he didn't desire enlightenment it actually helped him achieve it.

It also shows that divine beings do help people not only by sending energy but by sharing their presence.

I would agree with his teacher in telling him to stop getting lost .. that their is always more.
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Omsat

Belgium
267 Posts

Posted - Nov 16 2015 :  3:12:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy

Hi Omstat,

With much love..

I don't understand this story. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Ramakrishna was already experiencing silence.. one has to, to experience the ecstatic/Samadhi states he was experiencing.

I am also not sure how opening his 3rd eye even more was suppose to help him to reside and observe.

If anything the story shows that the fact that because he didn't desire enlightenment it actually helped him achieve it.

It also shows that divine beings do help people not only by sending energy but by sharing their presence.

I would agree with his teacher in telling him to stop getting lost .. that their is always more.



Hi jonesboy,

Thank you and much love :)

Yes, Ramakrishna went into high meditative states through his devotion prior to his Enlightenment.

It is not that his third eye was not open, but there was still a blockage if we may call it so.

Before the incident, Ramakrishna's consciousness was clear, but he was attached to the form of Kali so much that he couldn't perceive Her Formless Nature until he allowed to give up Her cherished form as She appeared.

He didn't desire Enlightenment prior to the meeting, which could be seen as a quality of silence indeed. But he strongly desired Ma Kali and was in a hopeless state when She would not be with him, like a baby crying for its mother. He had all the silence required to behold Ma Kali's form only, but not all the silence required to perceive Her formless essence. The meeting with his friend Tota triggered a longing to know what the yogi tried to convey to him (the knowing of Kali's non-dual formless Nature).

You are probably right that the breaking of his one and only strong attachment with a favour for a new practice (break the cherised Form as she appears instead of getting entranced in Her), may have caused him to realize so quick. There was just one bondage left to break and the highest intense pure devotion had done all the preparatory work.

Hope this clarifies.


Edited by - Omsat on Nov 16 2015 4:03:15 PM
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1553 Posts

Posted - Nov 17 2015 :  04:24:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Omsat,

I certainly enjoyed the story (and the point made). I am aware (Yogani touches on the subject somewhere) that at some point we have to break away from even our Ishtas.

And you have hit the nail on the head about devotion without Inner Silence. However, Love is contained with the word Devotion, isn't it? Please bear with me, I am truly trying to understand this. The stronger the devotion, the stronger the love for the divine? And Divine Love occurs within the frame-work of Inner Silence? So how can it all go so wrong?
I had a discussion recently with a christian friend and he was asking what I thought of those who worship Satan. I said I found the two words incompatible. Worship /Devotion is Love-based. And Love is God. And Satan as the complete opposite of God brings it back full circle, which makes him Divine. So while degrees of evil may exist, complete evil brings us back to the start (light and dark). I am probably off at a tangent here. Never mind.

KarenVic, I apologise for kidnapping your thread.


Sey


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Omsat

Belgium
267 Posts

Posted - Nov 17 2015 :  07:10:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

Dear Omsat,

I certainly enjoyed the story (and the point made). I am aware (Yogani touches on the subject somewhere) that at some point we have to break away from even our Ishtas.

And you have hit the nail on the head about devotion without Inner Silence. However, Love is contained with the word Devotion, isn't it? Please bear with me, I am truly trying to understand this. The stronger the devotion, the stronger the love for the divine? And Divine Love occurs within the frame-work of Inner Silence? So how can it all go so wrong?
I had a discussion recently with a christian friend and he was asking what I thought of those who worship Satan. I said I found the two words incompatible. Worship /Devotion is Love-based. And Love is God. And Satan as the complete opposite of God brings it back full circle, which makes him Divine. So while degrees of evil may exist, complete evil brings us back to the start (light and dark). I am probably off at a tangent here. Never mind.

KarenVic, I apologise for kidnapping your thread.


Sey






I love your questions very much

Devotion is intense commitment. The way in which the commitment manifests, makes the play of life. The level of devotion will make the play more or less intense.

There's a Path of Light and a Path of Darkness. At the ultimate level they both lead to Realization, even though the journey seems opposite. This is because Realization integrates Light and Darkness.

Most of us aren't as much polarized as we may believe. We have a favour for the path of light, truth, selflessness, freedom of lust etc. This is why we associate intenser devotion with greater unconditional love.

Love and hatred are polar sides on the same spectrum. Neither or both could be called devotion if we define devotion as intensity and commitment. Neither if the intensity of either is low. Both in the other case.

If we restrict the definition of devotion to the Path of Light, we cannot explain terrorism in light of devotion, seemingly. We would call it power instead. The intensity of the terrorists is what gives them power to affect the world. If we do not restrict the definition of devotion to the Light Path, then terrorism's power or lack of it can be explained in terms of intensity of their devotion to the chosen cause.

I said seemingly, because any polarity can be translated into its opposite. Consider the lion's behaviour. The gruel of killing another animal to feed itself is also a great act of self-love, that perpetuates its physical existence and power.

For this reason, distinguishing between Light and Darkness becomes superficial once we can integrate perspectives.

Then all can be called love indeed.


Now, in this light and coming back to the original post of this thread, the conflict experienced is one that illustrates our indecesiveness to Light or Darkness. Light would be selflessness and lust by itself would be perceived as selfish if not transformed. On the Path of Darkness, lust in itself is a tool in the chosen direction. On the path of Light also IF it is redirected to Light.

We experience conflict when we lack polarization.

I know some of this may sound contradictory, but some perceptions transcend logic classifications. Playful fuzziness



Edited by - Omsat on Nov 17 2015 07:29:23 AM
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jonesboy

USA
594 Posts

Posted - Nov 17 2015 :  08:51:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Omstat,

Maybe we should start a separate thread to discuss this.

I disagree with just about all that As well as your view on devotion to an Ishta.

All in good fun of course.

Much love
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Omsat

Belgium
267 Posts

Posted - Nov 17 2015 :  09:28:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy

Hi Omstat,

Maybe we should start a separate thread to discuss this.

I disagree with just about all that As well as your view on devotion to an Ishta.

All in good fun of course.

Much love





I'm fine with disagreement

No claims being made really, if you can sense the tone.

Will be happy to follow the new thread if you start one!
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1553 Posts

Posted - Nov 18 2015 :  04:26:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hmm... I get it, I get it... until I don't get it.
And so it is with such paradoxical issues.

I enjoyed that. Thank you.


Sey
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Omsat

Belgium
267 Posts

Posted - Nov 18 2015 :  06:14:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

Hmm... I get it, I get it... until I don't get it.
And so it is with such paradoxical issues.

I enjoyed that. Thank you.


Sey





The part that gives you a smile is just the right amount of getting.


In normal parlance, some of what I described would be categorized more as passion than devotion. The broadening of the definition is needed if we try to explain terrorism with devotion.

Usually what we call devotion has a very sensitive fragrance to it. Yet, the refined sensitivity quality also has power to move mountains.

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lalow33

USA
966 Posts

Posted - Nov 18 2015 :  09:33:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Karen,

You do not have to work on sexual desire to raise kundalini in my experience. It's possible to meditate and do pranayama and raise kundalini without focusing on sex. It can feel sexual when it starts to happen, but focusing on sexual desire is not a prerequisite. If it's causing you to ruminate in the past, I'd suggest dropping it.

My response seems different from the others, so I may be interpreting it differently. Best of luck to you.
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sunyata

USA
1511 Posts

Posted - Nov 18 2015 :  09:47:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Karenvic,

You have already received great advice from everyone. Why are you focusing on an individual who has already moved on with their life? By doing so, you are perpetuating your attachment towards her. How about a word like "Love" or even a pet as your Ista? Yes, kundalini has a sexual component to it. But devotion can be towards anything like Yogani mentions.

If you cannot connect to an Istha. How about showing devotion to your parents for taking care of you and raising you? When you have thoughts about her let it rise to awareness. I believe just focusing on the sexual aspect of spirituality may only take someone so far. How about engaging in selfless service?

I'm sure you have read about forcing kundalini to rise prematurely.
Are you practicing AYP? AYP does not advise on forcing K to rise. It emphasis a balance approach in all aspects of our life to reach spiritual maturity.


Sunyata

Edited by - sunyata on Nov 18 2015 09:56:11 AM
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Omsat

Belgium
267 Posts

Posted - Nov 18 2015 :  4:26:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yet another possibility not yet mentioned here is one that's in between the personal and impersonal Ishta:

Rather than choosing one specific entity/person/goddess/god, one could choose the qualities of any of these. Usually our attraction to a person is an attraction to qualities they possess, for instance strength, a loving heart, beauty, intelligence, radiance, wisdom, prosperity etc.

The advantage of choosing qualities rather than a specific individual is that the attachment to the specific individual falls, so that there would be no issue of freewill if the chosen individual prefers not to be at the center of devotion.

If one is inclined to be devoted to a specific person, there are plenty who will be a happy recipient. The famous ones are least likely to change their mind with respect to their willingness to be at the center of your devotion

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parvati9

USA
587 Posts

Posted - Nov 21 2015 :  11:16:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
This has turned into a very important discussion. Kundalini comprehension hinges on the keynotes brought out here. My understanding is just that, my take on it, based on only one person's perspective.

The beginning stages of k awakening were excruciating. The sexual ecstasy was way way too intense and was there all the time. It prevented restful sleep for being constantly awakened by this sexual desire. And I came to truly despise it. My everpresent prayer to the divine was to give me relief from it. Or at the very least to know what was happening to me. It was unclear that it was kundalini awakening and so confusion persisted in the midst of extreme discomfort. When this website was finally discovered, the emergency phase had been muddled through without really having a clue what was going on. But intuition informed that it was something great, a divine gift of sorts, perhaps a spiritual test and it behooved me to find resolution, no matter how that resolution manifested itself.

Being celibate, there seemed little choice but to fantasize, although at one point I certainly would have welcomed a partner. For many years prior to the awakening, sex drive had been little or none. So when this potent intensification arose quite suddenly, it blew me away. I couldn't fathom what was happening with my body. Online research yielded but greater confusion because misinformation is prevalent. I was completely on my own, being as resourceful as possible. And the fantasies helped immensely. I could feel the kundalini rise, occasionally it arose to the higher centers where relief was frequently available.

It wasn't until the energy arose to the solar plexus, and more or less remained at that level, that there was relief from the constant sexual arousal. That was when I began to feel that surviving this transformation, whatever it was, could be possible.

So here is what I want to say and it will perhaps seem extreme to many of you: However it can be managed, short of bothering other people, in your imagination do whatever you can to raise this energy up. Yes, if you have sensible practices to rely upon, that is obviously the best. And if you have a willing partner, that is indeed helpful. Otherwise, use your imagination to provide relief. And self pleasure. This is a phase that will pass, but until it does, it can be unbearable excruciating discomfort. I honestly feel that it could have driven me crazy, if the fantasies had not been employed.

Kundalini is life force. And life force is creative. At the lowest chakras this life force is almost completely self-serving as the will to preserve one's individual existence and the indulging of pleasure. Once the energy begins moving, the intensification is what enables it to rise. So it must intensify to build up the power to resist gravity and/or bulldoze through obstructions. This intensification can be extremely brutal if the energy is fundamentally trapped or blocked, which is a very common experience at the onset of k awakening. If fantasies relieve that distress and pressure, and there are no other options available, then they should be employed to assist in this transformation. Particularly at the human level, all life energy is sexual in its raw untransformed state. Once this is very deeply realized, then the energy will rise of its own accord. But not until. And the realization must go beyond mental comprehension into beingness. One must truly BE the energy which one has felt to be problematic. One must join WITH it, as opposed to feeling that it is an unpleasant and unwelcome intrusion into one's previously peaceful life.

Ishtas are primarily irrelevant for some of us, until the k energy begins to reside in the higher chakras, heart level and above. From a common sense perspective, there is no need to turn fantasies about one's human sexual partner (actual or fantasy) into the Ishta, as a form of the divine. But honestly I don't see the harm in it. This too shall pass. It does seem imperative to me that one understands the distinction between the human and the divine. But that's just me. Later on, the Ishta may become available as a very uplifting sexual partner, a conduit to divine awareness. The greatest damage we can inflict upon ourselves in the spontaneous k awakening is to be in denial, refusing to accept the process. Or to stubbornly cling to an idea which is nonsensical. Refraining from employing fantasies is, to me, counter intuitive and against common sense. Later on, as the energy rises, turning to the Ishta will be obvious and natural. But in the beginning, one is suffering from a deluge of sensual longings which often don't feel spiritual at all, at least not enough to invoke the Ishta.

love
parvati

Edited by - parvati9 on Nov 21 2015 12:00:14 PM
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Charliedog

1625 Posts

Posted - Nov 22 2015 :  04:09:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for sharing this Parvati,
Your path shows many similarities with mine.
I agree with you in all of this.
It was only to see clearly when looking back, very confusing it was for me. Especially in the beginning fase, when I didn't had any idea what was happening with me.
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