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 Discussions on AYP Deep Meditation and Samyama
 mantra rhythm
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Dennis

USA
83 Posts

Posted - Sep 20 2015 :  10:30:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
I'm 6 months into AYP and DM. Previously I didn't think about keeping a constant rhythm of the mantra but from what I've read, it's important. When I think the mantra, I let the "M" sound resonate a little before repeating. I think it comes from how the OM mantra is done, where the "M" sound is held for a while. Since the mantra is all about the sound, I felt holding the "M" in "I AM" a little was a good thing. All in all, I repeat the mantra about every 3 seconds. But there's no silence between the repetitions. I just hold the "M" sound for a while. Is this too slow a repeat rate?

At some point, the mantra is repeated so quietly, it's almost a constant buzz sound without clear pronunciation so I'm not sure there's a rhythm there at that point. I think this is ok and desirable but don't know.

Christi

United Kingdom
4368 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2015 :  04:06:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Dennis,

There is no set speed or rhythm that you need to be keeping with the mantra. You simply repeat the mantra in your mind and easily favour the mantra with your attention coming back to it whenever you realize you have lost it.

It is fine if it becomes quieter in the mind, or less clearly pronounced and more fuzzy. That is a normal part of the process. It is also fine if it becomes a constant buzzing noise, or hum. There is no need to try to come back to a set rhythm if that is happening.

Simply repeat the mantra, constantly favouring it with your attention and let it go as it will.

Christi



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alecpeace

USA
95 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2015 :  5:49:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
This is a topic that came up in previous posts and Yogani addressed it. Basically, if you find yourself "trying" to keep some sort of rhythm of the mantra, be it spacing between repetitions, length of each mantra, etc. than you have shifted attention away from the mantra and you need to bring it back.

Micro-managing the mantra is very tempting but you go deeper if you let the mind decide all that.

Just think of it this way. DM requires 100% concentration on the mantra. If you are concentrating 85% on the mantra, letting it repeat in the background and 15% on mantra structure, spacing, rhythm, timing, than bring you attention back to the mantra 100%. You will see how easily the mind will decide the comfortable spacing,rhythm,timing,structure all on its own. Just the intent to repeat the mantra is enough to get it going, and the intent should be to simply repeat I AM or AYAM over and over again. Any instruction beyond that would be beyond the instructions of AYP.

Letting the "M" continue for a few seconds before the next repetition is OK unless you are trying to do that, than you're just limiting how deep you can go because the ego just can't get out of the way, and you'll remain at the surface level of meditation.

I've noticed the mantra becomes like water seeking the easiest path to a comfortable repetition pattern in the mind. If you force it into any other direction you get friction in the mind and repeating the mantra becomes very laborious, kind of like you're fighting with it. You can even get a headache doing that.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2015 :  8:05:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alecpeace

DM requires 100% concentration on the mantra.

If there is any concentration in relation to the mantra, we should consider it a soft concentration, rather than a hard concentration. Soft concentration leaves room for getting lost, which is what we want. We want to the favor the mantra in a way that lets our awareness lose the mantra, thereby going to deeper layers of the mind and stillness.

When you say "100% concentration", that has a connotation of trying to stay on the mantra, which is not correct. With the phrase "easily favoring", both the denotation and connotation of those words point to an operational directive that allows for refining of the mantra. "100% concentration" has a denotation and connotation that is quite different, and not in alignment with allowing the mantra to refine.

Christi covered all the bases pretty clearly, with the exception being "constantly favoring". Again, we're dealing with delicate matters of connotation and denotation ("constant" comes from a Latin root word meaning "to stand firm", so "constant" leans towards the aforementioned hard concentration, which we do NOT want included in the technique).

Here are some synonyms to "easily favoring" that illustrate the correct operational directive we are trying to achieve:
lightly return to
effortlessly come back to
softly put awareness on
gently place consciousness on

Can you see the continuity and sameness in the above words?

In closing, let me point out that we're mainly dealing with 2 kinds of words here: an adverb, then a verb. The adverb modifies the verb, thereby enriching the meaning and instructional value of the phrase. If we stay true to the technique, we will understand which words fit in with the correct connotation and denotation of Deep Meditation instructions.

Ah...the power of language!
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2015 :  8:32:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
P.S. Here are some antonyms (meaning "opposites") to "easily favoring the mantra":

firmly concentrating on the mantra
persistently holding attention to the mantra
relentlessly repeating the mantra
constantly thinking the mantra


So, the above 4 phrases are NOT in alignment with the Deep Meditation technique. They are NOT ways to approach the mantra.

Just wanted to provide some contrast here. Our minds do well when we have a spectrum of words that demonstrate the reality of contrast. One of the main reasons why we know what blue is, is because of our ability tell how it is different from green, thereby exercising the innate capacity for discernment within a field of contrast.
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Dennis

USA
83 Posts

Posted - Sep 22 2015 :  7:21:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all, I learned a lot here. I'm 6 months in and was doing ok without thinking about the 'structure' of the repetitions. Then I starting reading more about the mantra and everyone said to have a constant rhythm, which I assume means a constant speed of repetition. So I concentrated a little on the 'structure' as was said here. Previously, I sometimes changed the rhythm, not intentionally, but from what you said here, I think I will forget about a constant rhythm and just do what comes naturally.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Sep 22 2015 :  8:25:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

...and just do what comes naturally.


That is the essence of it!
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Mats

Germany
42 Posts

Posted - Dec 26 2023 :  4:37:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alecpeace

This is a topic that came up in previous posts and Yogani addressed it. Basically, if you find yourself "trying" to keep some sort of rhythm of the mantra, be it spacing between repetitions, length of each mantra, etc. than you have shifted attention away from the mantra and you need to bring it back.

Micro-managing the mantra is very tempting but you go deeper if you let the mind decide all that.



Nice and helpful post here. Lately I was thinking about mantra rhythm and spacing between, like
  • "I AM...I AM..." being better than
  • "I...(pause)...AM...(pause)...I...(pause)...AM" or
  • "AYAM...AYAM....AYAM" being better than
  • (stretched)"Aaaaaayaaaammm...Aaaaaayaaaammm..."

Obviously, I can discard these thoughts. Again, helpful post here.
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TensorTympani

USA
62 Posts

Posted - Jan 03 2024 :  11:53:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, it's really important to know that the mantra doesn't need this kind management.

Still sometimes (very occasionally) I deliberately induce or impose some structure I know I don't do naturally (and I know that because of the occasional analysis I'm doing during DM...). It's then interesting to see that "shaking up" the mantra that way sometimes is very unstable, it just slips back to it's normal pattern, but sometimes it keeps going effortlessly with this new patten for a while until it morphes back to usual pattern without me noticing the transition. I'm of course not suggesting anybody else should do that. I just find it reassuring sometimes to "poke" a bit at what I'm doing and see that whereever I'm getting that way doesn't feel "more correct".

Sometimes though, especially when I started with new AYP components, the occasional shaking things up a bit has helped me (I think) to more quickly pass the clunky stages of new practices.
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Mats

Germany
42 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2024 :  9:20:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The fuzziness of the mantra should be picked up where we left it. Does this also apply for mantra rhythm or do we start anew?
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Christi

United Kingdom
4368 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2024 :  07:07:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mats,

If you lose the mantra during meditation, then come back to a level that is comfortable for you. This could be with clear pronunciation, or it could be at the faint and fuzzy level that the mantra was at before you lost it. So, come back to a repetition of the mantra that is comfortable for you.

It is here in lesson 13:

"Thinking the mantra does not have to be with clear pronunciation. I AM can be experienced at many levels in your mind and nervous system. When you come back to it, come back to a level that is comfortable, not straining for either a clear or fuzzy pronunciation." [Yogani]
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Mats

Germany
42 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2024 :  08:06:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, and it applies also for mantra rhythm?
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Christi

United Kingdom
4368 Posts

Posted - Jan 16 2024 :  09:48:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mats,

Yes. Come back to a level that is comfortable for you; clarity, level of fuzziness, rhythm, speed and so on. Start the mantra off, repeating it silently in your mind with back-to-back repetition, and then let it go as it will. Each time you realise you are off the mantra, you pick it up in this way again.
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