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 Discussions on AYP Deep Meditation and Samyama
 Time between mantra repititions
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Ace

Germany
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2015 :  06:11:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hello everyone,

I recently feel some doubt about wether I'm practicing DM the right way and as you might know, doubt can be very distracting when practicing.

The way I practice I think the mantra in my head and than leave quite some time, around 5 or 6 seconds before I repeat it again. There are sometimes many thougts in this time gap, but if I leave less time between petititions I feel like it's forced. My feeling tells me the mantra needs to sink in, before the next repitition.

Despite this little problem, my breathing is always slowing down considerably and my body feels very relaxed. But there are still many thoughts.

It would be great, to get some claryfication on how much time between each thoguht repition of the mantra is recommended.

and

Christi

United Kingdom
3670 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2015 :  08:29:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Ace,

The mantra is repeated continuously in the mind, so without any pause between one repetition and the next. This can feel strange at first if you are not used to it. It should be repeated gently, not forced, just being easily picked up with each repetition. If it is used in this way it will naturally tend to become softer, and quieter and less clearly pronounced over time and it is fine to let that happen.

See here from lesson 13:

"Once you have gotten comfortable, slowly close your eyes. You will notice thoughts, streams of thoughts. That is fine. Just observe them without minding them. After about a minute, gently introduce the thought I AM and begin to repeat it easily and effortlessly in your mind. If your mind wanders off into other thoughts, you will eventually realize this has happened. Don't be concerned about it. It is natural. When you realize you are not repeating the mantra, gently go back to it. This is all you have to do. Easily repeat the mantra silently inside. When you realize you are not thinking it, then easily come back to it. The goal is not to stay on it. The goal is to follow the simple procedure of thinking the mantra, losing it, and coming back to it when you find you have lost it. Do not resist if the mantra tends to become less distinct. Thinking the mantra does not have to be with clear pronunciation. I AM can be experienced at many levels in your mind and nervous system. When you come back to it, come back to a level that is comfortable, not straining for either a clear or fuzzy pronunciation."

Over time, you will begin to notice the rise of silence in the mind, even with the mantra being repeated in this way. Inner silence does not necessarily exclude sound.


Christi
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Ace

Germany
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2015 :  08:41:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Christi,

quote:
The mantra is repeated continuously in the mind, so without any pause between one repetition and the next.


Wow, this kinda means that I did DM wrong for a very long time. This sucks, but at least I know how to do it properly now, thanks to your reply. So thank your clear explanation, I'll try it out this afternoon.

I believe my missunderstand came form reading this popular post by Katrine: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=9738 . I interpreted it in a way, that one should leave time between the mantras, to let it sink in. Is this interpretation wrong? Or does this post and the AYP teachings conflict on that point?
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Christi

United Kingdom
3670 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2015 :  10:27:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Ace,

Yes, the information given in that thread by Katrine was a different procedure to the procedure of Deep Meditation. Further down in the same thread, Yogani gives an explanation of how the mantra is repeated and how that works in connection with rising inner silence.

See here


Christi
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Ace

Germany
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2015 :  12:38:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

thanks so much for the quick response. Your advice is on point and the link you provided gace me the reassurance I needed.
I actually tried out DM with the steady repition of the mantra just one hour ago and I felt it was very powerful. When I was doing samyama after DM I felt such a strong feeling insde, I could barely finish it.
Seems I need to see how I should self-pace now in order to adapt to that strong power. This is exciting

Anyways, thanks a lot for the help
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So-Hi

USA
481 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2015 :  12:57:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Christi, Yogani and all participants in this and former threads.

perfect timing as there is a tendacy to chase the vibration to stillness Samyamic IAM to coin a phrase before repeating IAM, there is also the parallel work of IAM running back to back as the samyamic IAM reverberates to stillness.

Glad to know when I catch this and revert to simply favoring the mantra back to back this is the correct way.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2015 :  8:32:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I have a little problem with the statement: "The mantra is repeated continuously in the mind..." To me, that is similar to Katrine's directive to deliberately insert space between mantra repetitions; it's just that Christi's directive is on the other end of the same micro-management spectrum, i.e. trying to eliminate space (instead of create space) between repetitions.

The proper technique is to begin repeating the mantra, and to easily favor it when we realize we are off it. That does not include making sure that the mantra is repeated continuously in the mind. Trying to repeat the mantra continuously is way too much effort and regulation, and not in line with the baseline technique of easily favoring.

Just to clarify, my understanding is that under the umbrella of repeating and easily favoring the mantra, there can be either a) no gap between repetitions, or b) some gap between repetitions. We make no deliberate effort to achieve either a) or b); they are just variations within the broad scope of easily favoring.

The only thing you need to tell your mind is: begin repeating the mantra, and easily favor it when no longer on it.

Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jun 21 2015 8:43:42 PM
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reidmantra

United Arab Emirates
51 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2015 :  10:19:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Bodhi Tree, Reidmantra here. Are you sure that the mantra is not to be repeated back to back continually. I see your point about effort and mental regulation but as I read Yogani's instructions, option A of your response seems to be the correct method. Am I unintentionally missing something in the technique? Thank you Ace for this topic and every ones responses. Namaste!! - Reidmantra
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  01:25:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know. It seems like too much emphasis on the "no gap" aspect. In my practice, there can be multiple repetitions strung together, or just one repetition, then getting lost in thought, or silence, or whatever. For me, when I'm operating by the easily favoring principle, I would not be trying to think the mantra continually.

It's a fine point, so maybe I've just blown up the words a little too much, but from my experience, the effectiveness of the technique hinges upon finesse (minimal friction), which means giving a wide berth to how the "repetition", rhythm, tempo, and other qualities of sound/vibration refine over time. In fact, Yogani said he only used the operative word "repeat" at the very beginning of the instructions as to not confuse people into trying to repeat the mantra as much as possible (like japa). Hence, we don't easily favor the "repetition" of the mantra; we easily favor the mantra itself.

Not trying to further confuse the point here...just trying to keep it simple when it comes to the actual instruction.
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Ecdyonurus

Switzerland
479 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  02:08:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Gently favouring the mantra and, at the very same time, accepting to lose it.

Alway saw beauty in this contradiction.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3670 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  07:01:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Bodhi and all,

quote:
In my practice, there can be multiple repetitions strung together, or just one repetition, then getting lost in thought, or silence, or whatever.


Yes, when repeating the mantra, at times we can find ourselves lost in thoughts, or sensations in the body, or sounds outside the room. When that happens and we realize we are off the mantra, we favour the mantra over anything else that is happening.

So in that way, there can be the mantra, and then a gap whilst we are lost, and then coming back to the mantra when we realize we have lost it.

But what is not part of the procedure is to repeat the mantra, and then intentionally allow a gap and then repeat the mantra again. The mantra is repeated back-to-back. See here from further down that same thread:

"But we do not cease repetition of the mantra as it falls away -- no deliberate letting go in-between repetitions of the mantra. It is the repetition itself that becomes more and more refined, until it dissolves into a single stream of subtle vibration, and stillness. Then when we come out of that in thoughts or sensations, and recognize that we have, we easily begin the repetition again at whatever level of clarity or faint fuzziness we are at in the mind. This could happen only a few times in a sitting, or a hundred times, depending on the purification and opening that is occurring (it will vary from sitting to sitting -- and no meditation is better than another in this). This procedure systematically brings the entire mental process to rest in stillness (even if we are filled with thoughts during our meditation), and this is what cultivates abiding inner silence over time. " [Yogani]

And here again:

"Yes, the mantra is repeated "back to back" when sitting, and the whole process is lost and easily picked up again as often as necessary. There is no forcing in it, once we get past the clunky (learning) stage. When we say "easily pick up the mantra," we mean easily pick up back to back repetition. " [Yogani]

So when I said that the mantra should be repeated continuously in the mind, I could have added the word "effortlessly" to the end of the sentence. But I didn't because when people start out with mantra meditation there is often a "settling in" stage to get through where repetition of the mantra is not effortless. After a while it becomes effortless and the losing of it and coming back to it again are also effortless.

Christi
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Blanche

USA
603 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  08:27:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Christi, Bodhi, Ace, and all,

Excellent observations to clarify an important topic. The individual variations in the DM technique might be due to individual differences. Each of us has a slightly different experience with the mantra, because each of us follows the intrinsic principle "easy is right."

It is important to be easy with the mantra, not hanging on to a clear mental pronunciation, not hanging on to an unclear mental pronunciation, no hanging on at all, just easily being with it. If we develop this habit of easiness, the mind will settle into its silence naturally. It is a natural process of our mind we are facilitating.
[Yogani, L14)

I expect that in time the refinement of the procedure results in higher vibrations and expanding stillness in all the practioners.

I agree with Christi that mantra is repreated back-to-back. But I also agree with Bodhi that there are gaps between repetitions - or, better said, there are gaps while repeating the mantra.

Easily repeat the mantra silently inside. When you realize you are not thinking it, then easily come back to it. The goal is not to stay on it. The goal is to follow the simple procedure of thinking the mantra, losing it, and coming back to it when you find you have lost it. [Yogani, L13]

In my experience, I start with mantra repetition back-to-back, even though in fact the mantra is going on continuously now inside, in a fuzzy way. The intentional repetition makes the mantra very loud for me. While the mantra is going by itself, there are "gaps" - a tremendous blissful expansion in stillness, a total absorption - I am gone. Then after some time, could be 10 minutes, could be an hour, I am back - and get back to the mantra. DM is more like listening to music - following an inside thread going back "home."

Thus, I agree also with Ace and So-Hi: with practice, the mantra vibration in stillness becomes continuous, and at that point the mantra works by itself. Yes, Ecdyonurus, there are no contradictions.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  09:37:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I had written Yogani an email a year ago about the dynamic of repetition, and he used it as a forum post:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=13671

"Of course "repetition" is mentioned in the original instructions for deep meditation, and it is rarely mentioned after that. You'd be amazed how many questions I have received over the years on what "repetition" of the mantra is. The word itself immediately brings up questions about structure, timing, rhythm, etc, whereas, in fact, there is no set rhythm, as you recognize.

The whole point of deep meditation is moving beyond mental structure, and that is why the word "repetition" is rarely used, because to most it implies structure. All the practitioner needs to know is that meditation begins with repeating the mantra, and after that, it will go to less definition according to the unique factors in the person and the particular session. It is like that in easing back to the mantra as well -- it can be at any level of clarity or faintness in the mind. It is easy to find it once we let go of the need for structure, a place to be, or a rhythm to keep."


And...from the same post...

"The word "repetition" introduces a structural imperative, one that has an unlimited number of interpretations, bringing up all sorts of questions. So we just say, "Easily favor the mantra," which covers all possibilities."

That last excerpt has really stuck with me, and that's why I threw up a little red flag when I saw the "back to back" stipulation. Yogani seems to be contradicting himself if he insists that the mantra must be repeated back-to-back, when in the above quote, he emphasizes how "repetition" should not be part of the catch phrase (structural imperative) that we operate by.

Therefore, I refer back to my previous statement, and in doing so, I ask--is the following statement TRUE and CORRECT in regards to the Deep Meditation technique?:
"...under the umbrella of repeating and easily favoring the mantra, there can be either a) no gap between repetitions, or b) some gap between repetitions. We make no deliberate effort to achieve either a) or b); they are just variations within the broad scope of easily favoring."

If my statement is TRUE and CORRECT, then it would seem prudent for Yogani to affirm it to be so, and to further clarify why he included the "back to back" stipulation in the post Christi has referenced.

In the spirit of simplicity and accuracy, I don't think the phrase "back to back" should be used as a point of clarification on the finer points of Deep Meditation.


Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jun 22 2015 09:38:36 AM
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yogani

USA
5166 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  10:17:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi All:

Good discussion and clarifications on easily favoring the mantra. The truth is that if we are continuously imposing a time gap in mantra repetition, or continuously imposing back-to-back repetition, both are wrong. Continuously imposing any kind of structure in mantra repetition is wrong. But we have to start somewhere, so we begin by easily repeating the mantra silently back to back, and letting it go as it will. And that is also how we pick it back up when we notice we have gone off it, wherever it is in clarity or faintness, without imposing a continuous mental structure on it.

It is so simple. Yet in our minds we strive to make it complicated. Just start the mantra and let it go how it will. Then when we notice we are not on it, come back to it and let it go how it will. Like that. When we find ourselves in stillness and notice we are off the mantra, we come back to it again at that very faint level, letting it go how it will, which will take us deeper.

As mentioned in the past, at refined levels the mantra will be a faint vibration we are coming back to and there will be no distinct rhythm. This is not a condition we can create as a structure in the mind either. We just favor it where it is, and let it go how it will. Correct meditation is not a doing, not about maintaining a continuous mental structure of any kind. It is a systematic undoing.

Every session will be different according to purification and opening that is occurring at the time. But the procedure of deep meditation is always the same.

By this simple process of traveling beyond thinking daily, our life will be enriched from within.

The guru is in you.

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Blanche

USA
603 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  10:49:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for clarification, Yogani. Your answer resonates with the practice.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  10:59:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
OK. Clear enough. Thank you very much, Christi and Yogani.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  11:02:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Also, thank you Blanche for your clarification!
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Christi

United Kingdom
3670 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  1:15:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi guys,

The subtle nuances of mantra meditation!

Beyond right and wrong there is a field... as they say.

Meet you there.



Christi

p.s. Thanks Yogani for your clarifications.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  1:45:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Beyond right and wrong there is a field... as they say.

Meet you there.

Yeah!! "If you build it, they will come." --The Field of Dreams
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Ace

Germany
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 23 2015 :  07:55:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi everyone,

Wow, seems like a great discussion emerged! This forum is truly great in the way the quality is very high, with people providing quotes and keep a very friendly tone all the time. This has been incredible helpful to get things clear about DM.

Thank you yogani, for your explanation and all the incredible work you did, with putting all this useful practices and information out there and providing us with this forum to support eachother and to share our experiences. In AYP practices I have finally found, what I was looking for and I am deeply grateful for all this. Thanks.

good practice to everyone
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alecpeace

USA
95 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2015 :  09:31:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by yogani

so we begin by easily repeating the mantra silently back to back, and letting it go as it will. And that is also how we pick it back up when we notice we have gone off it, wherever it is in clarity or faintness, without imposing a continuous mental structure on it.


So after about 10 minutes into DM, it would be OK if the mantra, by it's own accord, has decided to put a few seconds gap in between AYAM's? Assuming we start out DM with back2back continuous stream of repetition, and then let the mantra go as it may.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2015 :  5:37:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alecpeace

So after about 10 minutes into DM, it would be OK if the mantra, by it's own accord, has decided to put a few seconds gap in between AYAM's?

Yes, totally OK.
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