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 Yoga, Science and Philosophy
 Is meditation a definite escape from thought?
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radarsh17

India
13 Posts

Posted - Jun 14 2015 :  02:10:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
I remember this interview where U.G said something like, all forms of siddhi, samadhi or whatever one achieves through sadhana had nothing to do with the final goal one is after. That as long as one has a veritable experience of any kind, it is bound to be thought induced and hence not real.

U.G. was adamant about the uselessness of any form of spiritual practice. He went even so far as to say that meditation or yoga was just the deliberate torturing of the human body, instead of which one could just as well take some sort of drug and accomplish the same thing even better.

It is not to agree or disagree with what he said. But one does get the feeling that everything one does for spiritual/intellectual/experiential advancement is just an excuse for facing what's real. I am reminded of someone like Nietzsche, whose work, the way I see it, is a manifestation of the highest possibility of thought hitting one paradox after another only to collapse ultimately into itself. It's as if by just being alive, we have become utterly incapable of looking at naked existence. The infinite leap from being trapped in forms with boundaries to being boundless seems quite inconceivable.


"All that we have invented, the symbols in the church, the rituals, they are all put there by thought. Thought has invented these things. Invented the savior. Invented the temples of India and the contents of the temples. Thought has invented all these things called sacred. You cannot deny that. So thought in itself is not sacred. And when thought invents God, God is not sacred. So what is sacred? That can only be understood or happen when there is complete freedom, from fear, from sorrow, and when there is this sense of love and compassion with it's own intelligence. Then when the mind is utterly still, that which is sacred can take place.” - J.Krishnamurti

Edited by - radarsh17 on Jun 14 2015 03:08:49 AM

Dogboy

USA
1645 Posts

Posted - Jun 14 2015 :  07:15:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Complete stillness = sacredness, according to Krishnamurti. The only way there, from this imperfect vessel I inhabit, is meditation, unless of course I am dead. If UG believes that is useless, then so be it. I'm okay being useless and filled to the brim with love.

Edited by - Dogboy on Jun 14 2015 08:43:33 AM
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kumar ul islam

United Kingdom
693 Posts

Posted - Jun 14 2015 :  12:54:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
maybe we are the thoughts of a god while he sits for yoga practice and when he reaches liberation we all disappear
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Dogboy

USA
1645 Posts

Posted - Jun 14 2015 :  4:19:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm okay with that

I'm okay!

Edited by - Dogboy on Jun 14 2015 4:21:03 PM
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2015 :  12:03:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
One awesome practice in the AYP repertoire is samyama, which uses thought to cultivate miracles. Thought, when released in stillness, is a very important part of enlightenment.

To deny thought is foolish and silly. To embrace thought as a tool of divine love is wise and appropriate for being human.

I totally agree with kumar's lighthearted suggestion that we are thoughts of God. That is so beautiful, and a wonderful metaphor. We are living in God's dream, which is a product of His/Her/Its mind. Thoughts are divine, just as much as the Unseen.
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adishivayogi

USA
197 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2015 :  01:56:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
yoga is a means of attaining samadhi. This might be a superficial way to look at it, but i dont feel that takes away from anything. Samadhi brings about a remembrance of soul. Samadhi brings about a mergning with god

Edited by - adishivayogi on Jun 15 2015 05:05:42 AM
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ak33

Canada
229 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2015 :  08:06:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hmm, this is very interesting. How about making a spiritual practice of watching your thoughts, how they proliferate, along with physical sensations and emotions? That would be a naked observation of reality, if you can get past the conceptual labels your mind puts on everything.
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2015 :  12:23:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
There is no duality, it only seems that way. Thoughts are thoughts. One can think 'I am a pink mushroom' and then spend ones life contemplating and viewing everything through the lens of being the pink mushroom.

One only needs to know what is true and strive to eliminate the false. This is somewhat like a scientific experiment. A thesis must be examined until no more examining is required. Something then holds true and valid. No further test is needed. It has been demonstrated beyond doubt.

A scientist will postulate many different thesis and test them against observation. He does not know which one is valid until the time at which one thesis reveals itself as univuivocally true.

It is not the thoughts that cease, only the thought 'I am' this/that/the other. Once the true self is revealed there is no more confusion. Thoughts continue but in the manner 'chop wood, fetch water', instead of 'I' the pink mushroom, is doer of these things.

How does anyone know when the false self is eliminated ? Easy. It will be clear as a bright sunny day. Doubts will have vanished and all that will remain is the true self, the one from which everything else arises. Then 'I am that I am' will be seen as that which always was. It never was anything else. It seems strange to say, but it is true, there is no getting to, no point at which, no path. All of that is part of the false self which is just thought.
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jonesboy

USA
594 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2015 :  7:30:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi radarsh17,

In my experience there are two aspects to this.

The first is strong, utter silence. It feels like a drug. It can feel paralyzing the strength of the silence sometimes. This is good if one is living in a cave. Living in solitude is where one can reside in this state for longer periods. Being a house holder one can be pulled back into observing thoughts.

Ones natural state is more than just observing thoughts. It is a compete letting go of emotional body energy as well as thoughts. A non attachment, a residing without grasping to any "thing." This residing, observing is not just of thoughts. This can become so strong and remember that everything is self arising. Sometimes the world becomes mirage like. It wants to float on by like a thought does. This also feels very, very good. Besides being free from attachment the heart does sing.

I first experienced this while in meditation. I call it the other side of a thought, which is energy. When one is really residing the energy/thought becomes ecstatic (full body orgasmic feeling) and just floats right on by filling you with pleasure. Over time this ecstatic feeling both in and out of practice becomes one of silence. No longer do the flows of energy send pleasure but increased silence instead. Pleasure is still there just different now.

Interesting how all that seems to work together.

Again just my experience so far.. Hope this helps.

P.S. I am a big believer in having a practice :) I find it very important. Not having one is missing a lot!

Edited by - jonesboy on Jun 15 2015 7:34:02 PM
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  11:13:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
To whom does the silence occur ? Find that one.
Knowing everything is experience is just another experience.
It requires thought to see thought, or hadn't you noticed

You cannot get away from your essential existence.

Look, touch, feel, smell, taste, hear any object and it is direct perception. It is concepts that form from thoughts. Concepts must be checked against reality. Against direct perception. Everything winds down, reaches ground floor. Things are just as they are.

There is no wizardry, no scenery, no airy concepts or dramatic experiences. There is no more experiencing experience, no more fooling oneself, one is one and no more. Everything is perceived without distortion, just as it is, just as you are and nothing added. Concepts are useful only when they are formed without distortion otherwise at most they can be conceptualised and created as art forms.

One is not a meditator, yogi, teacher, artist, lover, friend, healthy, sad, happy..etc one is one, pure self without fat, icing sugar, decoration. Perception is direct and not through the cloud of 'I am this' and must act thus.

All that is needed to eradicate what one isn't to reveal what one is, was always, is always. We grope in the dark when we already know exactly where the light switch is, we have always known, we just preferred the possibilities that lay in the dark.
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Charliedog

1579 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2015 :  12:28:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by karl


Things are just as they are.


Yes they are. To communicate on this forum we have to use words, describe feelings. Every word is a concept, heard or read on a specific personal level. Looking back there is no path to silence or enlightenment. When you start practicing you need tools that you can use to find that out for yourself. You need to experience it for yourself, that is the only way to find That.

To be or not to be that is the only question. Be-ing
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joseph

117 Posts

Posted - Jul 03 2015 :  11:26:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Saw a nice quote which is related to this and implies that there is a paradox.

Paraphrasing here;
(the path = spiritual practice/yoga)

"you don't need to walk down the path, but you need to walk down the path to realize you don't need to walk down the path"
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - Jul 03 2015 :  12:15:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by joseph

Saw a nice quote which is related to this and implies that there is a paradox.

Paraphrasing here;
(the path = spiritual practice/yoga)

"you don't need to walk down the path, but you need to walk down the path to realize you don't need to walk down the path"



Or perhaps "you need to pretend you are walking down the path until you discover there is no path".
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1516 Posts

Posted - Jul 03 2015 :  1:26:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by radarsh17
U.G. was adamant about the uselessness of any form of spiritual practice.



This view might have worked for U.G. but would it work for you? The issue is far too important to take anyone's word for it. You need to find it out for yourself Radarsh. So you are doing well to get on with your practices. Godspeed
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joseph

117 Posts

Posted - Jul 03 2015 :  3:31:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hehe that would work too, karl.

All depends how one looks at it
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srirama123

India
2 Posts

Posted - Nov 02 2017 :  07:19:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit srirama123's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hii
It is depend on you
Almost every spiritual practice – whether it’s meditation, mantra, prayer, study, yoga, fasting, pilgrimage etc – can be used as an escape.
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