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 Is AYP gnosticism?
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greymatter

USA
24 Posts

Posted - May 22 2015 :  8:05:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hello everyone,

I wonder if AYP has intellectual roots in gnosticism. Gnosticism is the idea that knowledge comes from direct experience rather than from inferences about the relationships between things. It has its roots in early Christianity but the idea may be considered a mechanism of many belief systems.

First off I'd like to draw attention to how difficult it is to come up with tractable philosophical questions about the AYP system. Usually the questions I describe here are erased before I can hit the "post new topic" button, because after writing them out they just seem very silly. Its a part of the relational self inquiry going on in tandem with my yoga practices.

So my question is this,

AYP practices such as pranayama and deep meditation are introducing thought patterns in the brain which are non ordinary experiences. Some of these thought patterns have the characteristics of a body. For examples: *toes itching* "I am handsome" *looks in mirror* *falls over*. Some non-ordinary examples of body thoughts: *blockage cracking* *feels like floating* *radiance* *ocean of emptiness* *brotherhood of mankind* *soulfire*. All these examples pretty much imply that there is some kind of body thing that is under an effect.

Gnostics who write (very entertaining) books like Samael Aun Weor say that we have multiple dimensional bodies which are in relation to one another and that explains simultaneous experiences of non ordinary and ordinary nature. In AYP we consider non-ordinary experiences as scenery and don't try to construct relationships between them. We also permit ourselves to notice and accept non-ordinary experiences as actual phenomena within our personal domain.

How close does this get to Gnosticism? Are yoga practitioners able to draw meaningful insights from "scenery" such as astral projecting to spiritual temples, talking to jesus, chilling with solar beings because they occur in the mind of the practitioner?

I expect a lot of AYP people will read this and think that dreams are not practical in daily life so can be safely ignored. So I'd like to shortly advocate on behalf of gnostics.

Astral projections (never dreams) are real experiences which have a bearing on the effectiveness of acolytes in reaching higher dimensional planes. Therefore it is practical in a realistic way to examine astral projection, other dimensions, and other non-ordinary experiences which are accessible to AYP people, so that they can gain access to these planes and run around in them. Its not necessary to become obsessed but the astral planes do exist in an accessible way and people should be aware of them as much as they are aware of things like taxes, weather and emails.

Is this opinion something that would be consistent with the AYP system?

adishivayogi

USA
197 Posts

Posted - May 23 2015 :  10:47:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Gnosticism is philosophy. AYP is an internal action. Someone whose made spirituality a matter of academics will defiantly strive to experience the mystical realms of reality. in ayp/kriyas we don't, however there is a greater tendency for those experinces to happen. spinal breathing/meditation>daydreaming

Edited by - adishivayogi on May 23 2015 11:56:41 AM
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greymatter

USA
24 Posts

Posted - May 23 2015 :  2:30:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks adishvayogi,

It seems like my attention has already brought about a strange sort of reality. However, the larger benefit of yoga has been a gradual unwinding of my nervous system to facilitate breath, thoughts, energy and more activity in daily life. Its not interesting to me to dream specific dreams, unless they happen in an unforced way.

Another aspect of my OP might be this,

Does AYP make dreaming become so concreet, or reality so malleable that it becomes hard to distinguish between them in a philosophical way?
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Dogboy

USA
1645 Posts

Posted - May 23 2015 :  9:09:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Does AYP make dreaming become so concreet, or reality so malleable that it becomes hard to distinguish between them in a philosophical way?


I joke a lot with friends around a campfire, staring at the full moon, that the fabric between Here & There is so thin, it would not take much to tear. In that setting, with this kundalini, it becomes believable. And dreamlike.

Edit:

Edited by - Dogboy on May 23 2015 9:11:44 PM
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BillinL.A.

USA
375 Posts

Posted - May 24 2015 :  2:35:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
AYP and Yoga in general emphasize the reality of the present moment.

Legitimate spiritual traditions vary widely. Not surprising since they are roads leading back to the Infinite who has dynamically expressed itself as countless roads.

I think Eckankar is a legitamate spiritual tradition and it emphazises astral projection.

Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF) tradition suggests that there are countless souls in the many, many astral relms who are so happy and content that they either don't believe in God or just aren't motived to seek the Infinite. There are also very negitive astral relms with powerful beings warring against one another with their thought bombs.

I practice AYP meditation techniques to appreciate the present moment believing that it includes the whole enchilada of Spirit.
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - May 25 2015 :  6:05:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
AYP is a tool and a powerful one.

What is real is real, what is imagined is imagined. What is imagined can be manifested if it accords with the laws of reality. What is real can also be imagined. Now there is a dilemma. If the real can be imagined along with the unreal/impossible then the mind can begin to believe that all is possible because both can be held simultaneously within the mind. However we cannot hold two opposing thesis within the mind without conflict.

For instance the syllogism:

All men are mortal
John is a man
Therefore John is mortal

and for an obvious invalid syllogism:

All men are mortal
Pigs are mortal
Therefore Men are Pigs. ( which might go down well with some feminists )

If reality isn't properly interpreted there is a danger of becoming trapped in a subjective loop. During AYP practice this is an inherent and ever present danger. It's the same as non-relational self inquiry. If it's approached without some level of stillness being present it leads to instability. This is why it's important to self pace and ground.

My theory is that during meditation we are allowing free rein to the emotional/imaginative portion of our minds. At the same time we are creating a still point around which thoughts can turn and distill. Freeing up emotion -particularly suppressed thoughts and negative emotions-in the comparative safety of meditation makes it difficult for the analysing portion of our brains to become involved, particularly when we go back time and time again to the occupying mantra. Instead it is all watched as one would a film-hence we regard it all as scenery. It can be very realistic scenery, but it is only scenery.

To some extent it's necessary for real and unreal to become confused and intertwined because it becomes possible to doubt the unreal along with the impossible. There is a passage in the Bible that talks of the weeds growing in a wheat field. It is suggested by the farmer that the weeds are pulled out before the corn is harvested, but the advice is to cut both weed and wheat as one then separate once the harvest is gathered in.

That means that if you continue to practice then all things will be clear to you. You will know the rope from the snake and the snake from the rope. Knowledge will come from what we can discerned and logically know to be real and not become corrupted by the false. We can come to know what is a false prophet. We can know what to eat, what the right action is, what the right thought is, when our senses are deceived.







Edited by - karl on May 25 2015 6:07:25 PM
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - May 25 2015 :  6:51:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Nice exploration, Karl.

For greymatter...

Here is a lesson on astral projection:
http://www.aypsite.org/264.html

And, a lesson on Cosmic Samyama (Advanced Yoga Nidra):
http://www.aypsite.org/299.html

The whole point is that astral projection is secondary to the primary cause of stillness in action. If we try to race to the secondary bonus before firmly establishing ourselves in the primary foundation, we will find trouble. I have experienced this trouble firsthand, with psychedelics initially, then later with trying to break through with the mind alone. Live and learn.

I am of the mind that we are cosmic beings, and that Earth is becoming more of a cosmic location. The question is: can we fully love Earth before we go beyond it?

Thank you for the topic.
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - May 26 2015 :  03:33:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
H
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree

Nice exploration, Karl.

For greymatter...

Here is a lesson on astral projection:
http://www.aypsite.org/264.html

And, a lesson on Cosmic Samyama (Advanced Yoga Nidra):
http://www.aypsite.org/299.html

The whole point is that astral projection is secondary to the primary cause of stillness in action. If we try to race to the secondary bonus before firmly establishing ourselves in the primary foundation, we will find trouble. I have experienced this trouble firsthand, with psychedelics initially, then later with trying to break through with the mind alone. Live and learn.

I am of the mind that we are cosmic beings, and that Earth is becoming more of a cosmic location. The question is: can we fully love Earth before we go beyond it?

Thank you for the topic.


But what use is Astral projection to me ? I crave none of it, I have no need of travel beyond my immediate day to day bodily needs. If there are a million planes and infinite worlds I have no wish to visit them. All I have is right here and now.

Chop wood, carry water. Create by the action of conscious creation, manifest things in solid form, do what needs to be done. The uncreated and formless are mere imaginings, powerful imaginings which pull us off course.

I don't need an ivory tower, or to dream forever. Chop wood, carry water. that's all that is required and all that there really is. You need eyes to see the beauty in it. To see beyond the mundane, to see the miracle unfolding. The trick is not to cling, not to look but to see, not to listen but to hear.

When you have done that you will know the sound of one hand clapping. you will have found your orbit amongst existence and know it. If Astral projection helps to find that point then you must look there, you must look everywhere that needs to be looked into as the inner guru moves you, this is individual to everyone.

You understand I'm not saying Astral projection isn't real, I simply posit that it has a particular part to play, a use. There are infinite categories of these things. Many gods, many worlds, many universes and you may wander them all. Converse with many beings. The mind is infinite in imagination so infinity is its business. Concrete things such as water and trees are defined by laws in the physical realm. Chop wood, carry water.

In the final chapter of Siddartha by Hess you see how he finds his place in the cosmos. He has walked past it many times. He does not see, does not hear. He is looking hard and listening, but he is blind and deaf.
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greymatter

USA
24 Posts

Posted - May 26 2015 :  10:50:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guys, very insightful as always.

quote:
That means that if you continue to practice then all things will be clear to you. You will know the rope from the snake and the snake from the rope. Knowledge will come from what we can discerned and logically know to be real and not become corrupted by the false. We can come to know what is a false prophet. We can know what to eat, what the right action is, what the right thought is, when our senses are deceived.


I go through cycles of subjective interpretation of reality to objective interpretation over a month or so; some weeks my eyes are burning and they see right through "the fabric", followed by damage control the next week as my body is resting and recuperating. I am involved in a number of processes which require ignorance as an essential component of their function. I sometimes think truth might just mean getting to the next level of consciousness, and maybe it is to some extent, but this reminds me that truth also means more flow and inner peace.

quote:
I am of the mind that we are cosmic beings, and that Earth is becoming more of a cosmic location. The question is: can we fully love Earth before we go beyond it?


Thanks Bodhi Tree, I read the lessons. Maybe we can!
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - May 26 2015 :  10:56:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The closer one gets to the center of any galaxy, the greater the density of light. It's super, super bright because the stars are bunched up together in thicker clusters.

It is my perception that such density changes the fabric of physicality, and that physicality becomes free of shadow. All that is left is pure and complete light. No more shadow. Quite sublime, and quite astonishing--especially when one has become accustomed to being distant from the galactic center.

Not only does the shadow of the physical body dissolve, but so does the shadow of the mind dissolve. Thought and feeling become so absorbed into pure Being that there is a remarkable transparency which exemplifies and celebrates the Here Now.

In short, the gap of duality becomes less and less in the cosmic (higher) dimensions that are nestled close to the central core of The Spiral. Everything hinges upon that spiral: expanding exponentially from the infinite middle point.

On Earth, we reside on the outer rim, closer to the edge of darkness, and that makes us both infantile, and yet, also like frontiersmen. We are explorers, pushing the limits of possibility.

But, the thing is...light is a product of creation, so darkness, in some sense, is closer to the uncreated stillness which transcends all locations. Stillness is just as easily here on Earth as it is in the vibrant heavens of Paradise. But there is a refinement at play in the cosmos, and evolution is a trend of perfecting and unifying stillness throughout creation.

What I mainly want to show here is that there is a difference between imagining (in the local Earth mind) and Being (in the boundless cosmic mind). I can imagine I am exploring astral realms in my local Earth mind, but that does not mean I am there in reality. Imagination is the pre-cursor to reality. Fantasy is important, but not the finished product.

Anyway, I am in total agreement that the destination is here on Earth. "On Earth as it is in Heaven..."

Grace is falling upon us.
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - May 26 2015 :  4:15:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by greymatter

Thanks guys, very insightful as always.

quote:
That means that if you continue to practice then all things will be clear to you. You will know the rope from the snake and the snake from the rope. Knowledge will come from what we can discerned and logically know to be real and not become corrupted by the false. We can come to know what is a false prophet. We can know what to eat, what the right action is, what the right thought is, when our senses are deceived.


I go through cycles of subjective interpretation of reality to objective interpretation over a month or so; some weeks my eyes are burning and they see right through "the fabric", followed by damage control the next week as my body is resting and recuperating. I am involved in a number of processes which require ignorance as an essential component of their function. I sometimes think truth might just mean getting to the next level of consciousness, and maybe it is to some extent, but this reminds me that truth also means more flow and inner peace.

quote:
I am of the mind that we are cosmic beings, and that Earth is becoming more of a cosmic location. The question is: can we fully love Earth before we go beyond it?


Thanks Bodhi Tree, I read the lessons. Maybe we can!


There were times when I felt very estranged. Sometimes it appeared this was a good thing as it meant I was achieving some great change, then it ended and it felt like I dropped from a great height. Gravitational logic and base reality can be difficult to endure after a trip to the high peaks.

It's so important to self pace, ground, let up a bit and just live. I cannot stress how important it is. The grounded position is the best place from which to meditate. It's difficult to achieve total grounding but the closer to it the better. It's tempting to force the pace, to stay floating, always feeling on the edge of some perceptual breakthrough, but better to avoid it if you can. It won't harm ultimately, but it can be tough on body and mind and will slow the development.
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - May 26 2015 :  4:22:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree

The closer one gets to the center of any galaxy, the greater the density of light. It's super, super bright because the stars are bunched up together in thicker clusters.

It is my perception that such density changes the fabric of physicality, and that physicality becomes free of shadow. All that is left is pure and complete light. No more shadow. Quite sublime, and quite astonishing--especially when one has become accustomed to being distant from the galactic center.

Not only does the shadow of the physical body dissolve, but so does the shadow of the mind dissolve. Thought and feeling become so absorbed into pure Being that there is a remarkable transparency which exemplifies and celebrates the Here Now.

In short, the gap of duality becomes less and less in the cosmic (higher) dimensions that are nestled close to the central core of The Spiral. Everything hinges upon that spiral: expanding exponentially from the infinite middle point.

On Earth, we reside on the outer rim, closer to the edge of darkness, and that makes us both infantile, and yet, also like frontiersmen. We are explorers, pushing the limits of possibility.

But, the thing is...light is a product of creation, so darkness, in some sense, is closer to the uncreated stillness which transcends all locations. Stillness is just as easily here on Earth as it is in the vibrant heavens of Paradise. But there is a refinement at play in the cosmos, and evolution is a trend of perfecting and unifying stillness throughout creation.

What I mainly want to show here is that there is a difference between imagining (in the local Earth mind) and Being (in the boundless cosmic mind). I can imagine I am exploring astral realms in my local Earth mind, but that does not mean I am there in reality. Imagination is the pre-cursor to reality. Fantasy is important, but not the finished product.

Anyway, I am in total agreement that the destination is here on Earth. "On Earth as it is in Heaven..."

Grace is falling upon us.



How it is for each of us is entirely how it must be. It's our own perception of the things that are resolving into form within the mind. If that is astral travel or bugs bunny in the back yard it's cool. something might be shadow/light, beat/space, hot/cold, just like anything created/uncreated there is a natural tension-a gradient. It all has to arrange itself in a harmonious balance at some point.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - May 26 2015 :  4:26:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by karl

It's so important to self pace, ground, let up a bit and just live. I cannot stress how important it is. The grounded position is the best place from which to meditate. It's difficult to achieve total grounding but the closer to it the better. It's tempting to force the pace, to stay floating, always feeling on the edge of some perceptual breakthrough, but better to avoid it if you can. It won't harm ultimately, but it can be tough on body and mind and will slow the development.

Amen, Karl.
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kensbikes100

USA
154 Posts

Posted - May 24 2017 :  08:12:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
So much here is grey (sorry, Grey!). Is what we may think while in DM knowledge? Is it in the mind before it is experienced? Is it the same if it is in the mind but not based on sensory information? Is it possible to for the mind to acquire content (knowledge or memories) that do not have a sensory (speech, reading, tactile, et cetera) basis?

If I emerge from DM recalling that I found a solution for the wave-particle duality in physics, is that knowledge?
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Charliedog

1579 Posts

Posted - May 24 2017 :  10:28:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Grey is no black and no white, first we live by the experiences of likings and dis likings, black/white, after some time of practice we see the grey, all shades of grey.

We see pain in beauty and beauty in pain.

Insights can pop up out of the blue, pure knowledge, insights can happen in every moment, waking up, walking around, in the middle of the night. It's not thinking, it's knowing, universal knowing and not always easy to express, at the same time the knowing can be food for thoughts.

Simple said, maybe fuzzy said, but experienced this way here and helpful to express.




Edited by - Charliedog on May 24 2017 12:38:01 PM
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1177 Posts

Posted - May 25 2017 :  03:33:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by kensbikes100

So much here is grey (sorry, Grey!). Is what we may think while in DM knowledge? Is it in the mind before it is experienced? Is it the same if it is in the mind but not based on sensory information? Is it possible to for the mind to acquire content (knowledge or memories) that do not have a sensory (speech, reading, tactile, et cetera) basis?

If I emerge from DM recalling that I found a solution for the wave-particle duality in physics, is that knowledge?



Interesting. I would say if it is not in the mind it cannot be experienced. It is not possible for the mind to acquire content that do not have a sensory basis i.e. the knowledge has to be translated into some form of sensory basis to be acknowledged. However, the source of the knowledge may not be from this physical reality (not from an external source but an internal source).
With the exception, perhaps, of the very basis of all knowledge - the primal knowledge: "I am"

But that is just me rambling.


Sey

Edited by - SeySorciere on May 25 2017 03:37:05 AM
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