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Filipo1
Switzerland
21 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 26 2013 : 03:28:04 AM
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Hello,
Please help me to understand something: I would like to know on what concepts and/or specific experiences is based the assumption that there is indeed a purification process taking place with the DM practice. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2013 : 09:16:13 AM
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Hi Filipo,
Good question. I have the same question. A recent experience seems relevant, and I will outline it here.
Over the years I have an ongoing problems with pain in my neck. I had thought about it in chiropractic terms as a problem with alignment, and I suppose that may still be the a factor. I find it is important to sit straight, and in alignment, when turning my head to right or left. I had thought of it in terms of tension in the muscles around the neck, and so had used massage, and, at night in bed, used a neck warmer. But recently, I have noticed that Chin Pump Jalandhara, which I have been doing regularly, seems to 'clear the blockage' -- my neck feels better than ever, which is to say, normal, or in its natural state, or energetically cleared.
So it is that the disappearance of physical symptoms seems like an energetic purification, or unblocking.
Your question was about DM. For me this purification is more in terms of undigested psychological weight, or sorrow, or shared emotional pain. Regular DM helps clear that out, keep it moving. |
Edited by - bewell on Apr 26 2013 09:20:44 AM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2013 : 11:09:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
Over the years I have an ongoing problems with pain in my neck. I had thought about it in chiropractic terms as a problem with alignment, and I suppose that may still be the a factor. I find it is important to sit straight, and in alignment, when turning my head to right or left. I had thought of it in terms of tension in the muscles around the neck, and so had used massage, and, at night in bed, used a neck warmer. But recently, I have noticed that Chin Pump Jalandhara, which I have been doing regularly, seems to 'clear the blockage' -- my neck feels better than ever, which is to say, normal, or in its natural state, or energetically cleared.
So it is that the disappearance of physical symptoms seems like an energetic purification, or unblocking.
Your question was about DM. For me this purification is more in terms of undigested psychological weight, or sorrow, or shared emotional pain. Regular DM helps clear that out, keep it moving.
I have been having the same issues with the neck. I have not reached Jalandhara yet as I am just now starting Siddhasana. I find myself with periods of my body going tense during DM.
It is good to know it is just part of the process and that others are having the same experiences.
To answer Filipo1: Yes purification is taking place during DM. |
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Mykal K
Germany
266 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2013 : 2:05:08 PM
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Hi bewell,
If your pain in the neck is because you keep your neck in a stiff position during the day, like me, besides chin pump, you could also look up exercises for strengthening the neck, that should help a lot as well. Wrestlers have very good exercises for the neck.
Mykal K |
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Filipo1
Switzerland
21 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2013 : 04:39:51 AM
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Different forms of pains need indeed to be adressed in full consciousness ed and treated.
However I would appreciate if we could stay focussed on the subject of this thread please.
My worry duw to my experience so far is that with DM I will really be in a purification process rather than a zombification process...
Any deep support on either option please?
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woosa
United Kingdom
382 Posts |
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Filipo1
Switzerland
21 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2013 : 02:04:53 AM
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First sorry for the typos in my previous intervention, I wrote it from a smartphone and my fat finger pressed on the "submit" button too quickly.
Thanks woosa, this lesson gives some indications but I need more clarifications.
My experience of meditating with a mantra so far does not give me the impression of increasing my attention. It is rather the opposite as I very often feel a kind a mental apathy at the end of the meditation sessions. It is totally the opposite of what I experienced before with zazen and vipassana meditations, I am quite sceptical about the fact that this apathy can lead me to more general awareness...
As I understood so far awareness is the key to wisdom and deep spiritual realization so I keep quite confused.
I would like to add that I do not practice DM but TM (transcendental meditation) which use different set of mantras according to your gender and age at the time of initiation. However from what I could judge so far all the teachings on the method of DM perfectly matches what I was tought by my TM instructor. |
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Mykal K
Germany
266 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2013 : 09:26:58 AM
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Hey Filipo1,
I started meditating with TM twelve years ago, for me it didn't last long since I didn't like using the mantras. I was afraid of self-hypnotizing myself with repeating one thought over and over again. So I just went with the breath, it was better for me. As far as I could tell, I went deeper with it. I went to self-styled zazen practice from that few years later, and stuck with that till some 8 months ago.
For me, something was missing, I wanted to awaken the kundalini. When I found AYP I soon went with the (almost) whole set of AYP practiced since I felt I had enough of silence and awareness, and so far I am content with the results.
My small experience with the mantras and enhancements:
When really listening what I am repeating in DM, there is an energetic experience in the body.
I am currently going from 2nd to 3rd enhancement in my mantra, and it doesn't seem to 'work' quite as well. My sessions are clouded in thoughts, and no energetic feeling so far. It could be that I am not ready for it, but will give it 2 weeks to see how it will progress.
When I did TM (I did it just for 2 months), there was no feeling of energy or anything, and it was like a hindrance to going deeply (as I felt it). Now, almost the same mantra - but the whole new ballgame. I can not say if it is because the mantra is a little different, or because my attitude toward mantras is different, or because 10+ years of experience meditating is behind me, or because of these other practices (SBP, kumbhakas, cultivation practice).
Anyway, I do not know how to monitor the effects of DM by itself (awareness wise), but the whole package works quite well so far with regards to my goals.
I am wondering though, why are you doing TM? When I was doing zazen, I was experimenting - constantly fine tuning my practice, but I would never go to introducing mantras, that would be like adding something in a place where I would like to be without anything.
If there wasn't a promise of kundalini, and a good enough explanation for the mantras, AYP wouldn't get me to do DM. No way.
Look this up for mantras: http://www.aypsite.org/22.html
I hope you got something more than just sore eyes from this 
Mykal K
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Edited by - Mykal K on Apr 29 2013 10:08:11 AM |
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Filipo1
Switzerland
21 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2013 : 06:59:05 AM
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Thanks Mykal K for your post and explanations about your meditation journey.
To answer your question , I am not introducing TM in addition to zazen.
I stopped practicing zazen because my practice of it had generated some recurrent muscular tensions in the back and shoulders.
I do not know if it was due to the fact of not following the breath's natural flow but rather controlling it in some way by putting emphasis on deep outbreaths as I was tought, or the somewhat typically japanese martial attitude that is too common in zendos and generates a kind of permanent feel of urge and tension but I had to give it a break.
A friend of mine told me about vipassana and anapanasati which is a practice I am considering more and more. Not because I am a fervent adherent of buddhism as I am not convinced by the teaching of anatta (pali) or anatman (sanskrit) which from my current point of view creates more problems than it solves, at least in the way it is usually tought and understood.
I chose to start practicing TM because of the many positive feedback and studies I could see all over the web, and above all because it is such an effortless approach that it convinced me that it would not generate tensions but eventually allow to gradually find a relief of them, without mentionning all the benefits of the practice on the long run, provided that you can keep a regular twice-a-day 20 min. practice. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4365 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2013 : 07:28:38 AM
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Hi Filipo,
quote:
A friend of mine told me about vipassana and anapanasati which is a practice I am considering more and more. Not because I am a fervent adherent of buddhism as I am not convinced by the teaching of anatta (pali) or anatman (sanskrit) which from my current point of view creates more problems than it solves, at least in the way it is usually tought and understood.
The Buddhist teaching of anatta is an advanced level teaching, although it is increasingly being made widely available in the west. Many in the monastic tradition in Thailand and Burma believe that it should not be taught to people who are not ordained as monks.
That said, I think the biggest confusion that arises from the teaching is that they take it as a doctrine which it is not. It is a teaching tool. It is much like the way Yogis will teach students that the world is an illusion. Then, when they have taken the necessary step backwards out of identification with the mind they teach them that the world is in fact real. It is a teaching tool.
When the Buddha was asked if it is true that there is no atman, he said no, it is not true. The teaching is an aid, which helps people to see that there is no self to be found anywhere in phenomenal existence. Wherever you look, either outside of yourself, or inside yourself, you will not find it. But if you go on looking, you wake up.
But as with all advanced practices, you have to come to it at the right time, when you are ripe and ready for it. Which means it needs to be practised in conjunction with other spiritual practices and introduced when the witness has already become established.
Good luck on your search for a fruitful path. 
Christi |
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Filipo1
Switzerland
21 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2013 : 08:15:51 AM
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Hi Christi,
Thanks for your interesting comments.
Could you please give me the reference of the Buddha's reply on anatta not being ultimately true?
I read that he usually kept a "noble silence" as reported by the scriptures, when asked on such existential or purely philosophical issues, insisting on the fact that he was sticking to only teach the truth of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) and the way (dhamma) leading to the end of it by adhering to the eightfold path. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4365 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2013 : 09:51:56 AM
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Hi Filipo,
It comes from the oral tradition. The story goes like this:
The Buddha was once asked if it is true that there is a self and he replied, "No, it is not true that there is a self".
He was then asked if it is true that there is no self and he replied: "No, it is not true that there is no self".
He was then asked if it is true then that there is both a self and no self, and he replied: "No, it is not true that there is both a self and no self".
He was then asked if it is true then that there is neither a self nor not a self and he replied: "No it is not true that there is neither a self nor not a self".
I don't know if that story is in the scriptures or not. In the scriptures, there is a very similar account where the Buddha is asked similar questions and remains silent instead of answering them. It's in the samyutta nikaya (44.10).
quote:
"Then Vacchagotta the wanderer went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings and courtesies, he sat down to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One, 'Now then, master Gotama, is there a self?' When this was said, the Blessed One was silent. 'Then is there no self?' The second time the Blessed One was silent. Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left.
"Then not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Venerable #256;nanda said to the Blessed One, 'Why, Lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?'"
And here's the Buddha's response: "#256;nanda, if I, being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans and contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I, being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans and contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of the self]. If I, being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?"
And Venerable #256;nanda said, "No, Lord."
Then the Buddha said, "And if I, being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self, were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self that I used to have now not exist?'"
So you can see from that quote that the no-self (anatta) teaching is in reference to perceived phenomena. It is not a doctrinal statement. Specifically the Buddha taught there there is no self to be found in the 5 skandhas (or khandas in Pali). These 5 skandhas are the aggregates and are : form, sensation, perception, mental formations and consciousness. This teaching is summarised in the Majjhima nikkaya:
quote:
Wherefore, monks, whatever is material shape, past, future or present, internal...thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self,’ he should see it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling...whatever is perception...whatever are the habitual tendencies...whatever is consciousness, past, future or present, internal...thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self,’ he should see it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Seeing it thus, monks, the instructed disciple of the pure one turns away from material shape, he turns away from feeling, turns away from perception, turns away from the habitual tendencies, turns away from consciousness; turning away he is detached; by his detachment he is freed; in freedom there is the knowledge that he is freed and he comprehends: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more being such or so [MN 3:20]
So the anatta teaching is basically an advanced form of self inquiry. The Buddha was saying, wherever you look, whatever you perceive, however deep you go, it is not who or what you are, you will find no self there.
Whether or not the Buddha actually confirmed the existence of the self later on in life, I do not know. It is an interesting question. You would have to look at terms such as the "Buddha-dhatu" (the awakened principle) used in the Mahaparinivarna Suttra and the "Tathagatagarbha" (the awakened essence) used in the suttra by the same name. Whether these terms were actually used by the Buddha himself or introduced later on as Buddhism developed I don't know.
Christi |
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Filipo1
Switzerland
21 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2013 : 10:43:45 AM
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Many thanks Christi! Your contribution is really encouraging me to go back to basics by studying and chewing the scriptures by myself in order to have a deeper understanding of the dhamma which is sometimes distorted by authors lacking of own personal realization...
Coming back to my initial subject: could someone specify what supports the assumption that DM practice involves a purification process rather than a simple auto-hypnosis please? |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2013 : 7:38:17 PM
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Filipo,
As the resident TM Initiator here, I can verify for you that the AYP DM technique is virtually identical to the Transcendental Meditation Technique--and the "I Am" mantra IS one of the several dozen TM mantras which may be assigned by age, gender, marital status, etc. As for "Purification", as Maharishi explained it to us, we can follow the mechanics of the practice and arrive at the conclusion that is what must be occurring. Maharishi more often called this purification as "Stress Release", whether something physical or emotional or psychological in origin. The mechanics are as follows: We begin to think the mantra and the mind becomes quieter. As the mind quiets down, the body follows suit--breath slows, heart rate slows, etc. This is the "Inward Stroke" of meditation. When the body accumulates a sufficient amount of relaxation, the tensions which hold stresses in our nervous system are relaxed, like the tension of a spring being compressed and then released. This release is purification, stresses coming loose within. This release of stress, like the spring unwinding, is an increase of physical activity, which causes a corresponding increase of mental activity--this we experience as the thoughts which come and go during meditation. This is the "Outward Stroke" of meditation. We must assume, based upon the results--that we began an inward process of silencing the mind and body yet end up with an outward stroke of increased mental activity, that SOMETHING other than just thinking the mantra has occurred! This we must label as purification. However...
The proof of the pudding is in the eating! As a long-term meditator (I began za-zen in 1970, did that for 3 years, and began TM 40 years ago), I have observed how my mind/body responses to personal and environmental stresses have evolved over the decades. I seriously believe that, were it not for my meditation practices, I would not be alive today. As I have aged, I have become not less flexible (at least emotionally, if not physically!), but more so. I have become more patient, more understanding and my temper, which was troubling in my teens, has all but disappeared. The daily stresses of my fairly difficult life (high-stress job, chronic illness, illness and death of my wife, infertility and adoption of children, the list goes on and on...) have for the past 30 or so years, tended to roll off me rather than pile up. I worked 30 years at a teaching job in which I earned 10 sick days each year. After 30 years, I had saved up almost 270 of them--in other words, I was sick on the average, about one day per year. This level of health I owe to the nearly stress-free nervous system I have structured through regular meditation for 43 years.
Michael |
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boris
Norway
68 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2013 : 8:18:11 PM
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| I have done many types of meditation.a lot of breath meditation.imo it is the amount of prana or energy that fills up in the body that purifies the energy channels.And DM is the most powerful meditation I have done.I can do 1-2 hours of other meditation and still dont feel the same energy as I do after15-20 mins of DM.This energy I clearly feel working and opening the nervous system between the meditation sessions.Also I feel much more happy after DM than other meditations I have done.My outlook is also fresher,sleep is better,health.In general it makes me feel better than other meditations.BUT I go deeper with breath meditation,but I dont feel so good in life between the meditation sessions as with DM. |
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Filipo1
Switzerland
21 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2013 : 05:14:13 AM
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Thanks a lot mikkiji and boris for your encouraging testimonials.
I guess I am worrying a bit too much due to my not yet erroded fundamental impatience... :) and will keep on with my current TM practice that otherwise fits me very well.
Happy journey to all! |
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Purification process
