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 Jnana Yoga/Self-Inquiry - Advaita (Non-Duality)
 Self-Inquiry & Depersonalization.
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Perej

United Kingdom
10 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2012 :  10:15:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hello everyone, I am new to this forum.

About 2 years ago now, I began to practice self-inquiry, the process as advocated by masters such as Ramana Maharshi and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.

After following the process for some time, I realized that I couldn't find a 'me', or a 'self'. This discovery led me into a state of depersonalization and derealization, whereby I feel like I am non-existant. I can no longer feel my emotions and live in a spaced out state of mind where completing daily tasks is much more difficult.

My memory is absolutely awful and I will often just completely forget what I need to be doing and other things.

I feel like I have died in a sense, and have no awareness of the present moment anymore. I feel completely detached from life and feel as if it is a dream that I will wake up out of any second. This frightens me and I experience some anxiety about this.

I have asked hundreds of questions on various forums all over the internet and this website I have decided to ask in now.

Has anyone experienced this? I believe it could all be coming from an emotional blockage, as even though I feel like I don't exist anymore in the ego sense, all my anger from the past and the energy of old self-hatred is still there.

Any ideas? Could it be kundalini or something?

Shanti

USA
4842 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2012 :  10:22:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit Shanti's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome to the AYP forums Perej.

What you describe sounds like either the Witnessing phase or Discrimination phase.
Take a look at this lesson :
Lesson 327 The Evolutionary Stages of Mind

Keep going... it is only a phase, it will pass.
Thanks for sharing.
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AumNaturel

Canada
687 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2012 :  11:24:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome Perej,

I wouldn't say memory is at fault, but more the ability to pin down such an experience in anything concrete is what is at a loss. It is hard to also anchor it to a time frame, since you are within the present moment always, and that center-point is always used as a reference for being able to sense changes occurring among external things, including being able to see your inner change (among phases - evolutionary stages of mind) by sensing a difference in the way your interaction with the world at one point in time compares to another. From within, there was no change, and it cannot be detected directly, but the center has shifted.

Something of the sort also occurred to me around the time I first started meditating where suddenly my feeling a certain way or another was no longer automatic and dependent on the situation and mood, but on a choice, which itself stopped almost any emotional reaction, leading me to naturally question in a similar way you are, 'what's wrong with me?' Later on, I started to enjoy the silence in meditation, almost as a new sense of being, standing outside the constant mental noise I was accustomed to before, which in turn gave way to seeing more silent layers of noise manifesting as the mind wandering endlessly following trails of emotion-loaded memories and fantasies.

Your description about lacking of present awareness I can relate to, though I don't call it that but instead a greater tendency to speculate on things to the point of losing track of time. I cannot, however, say I've ever felt depersonalized, derealized, non-existent, having died, anxiety about it, and instead find my greater presence in the moment to provide both the opportunity to "be here now" and to somewhat ponder off into almost anything.

Do see the link Shanti gave to lesson 327. I found it immensely helpful when I first came across it.

All the best.
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2012 :  11:26:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome to AYP.

I think you are perfectly describing none relational self inquiry symptoms. I would drop any further self inquiry and begin Deep Meditation only in order to cultivate sufficient inner stillness.

A lot of what you are experiencing does happen anyway because the inquiry is continuous it interrupts the normal thought process. Instead of doing things automatically you have created a great degree of mindfulness which makes simple tasks and memory a little bit sticky.

Best cure is to laugh when you are struggling, the absurdity of not being able to consciously do things is only temporary. It's a bit like trying to re learn things after a brain injury, but it's still all there and you can carry on as before. Just relax and let it flow, if you get frustrated it just gets harder so chill out and giggle.

The anger etc is still there because of the none relational work, there just isn't sufficient stillness to let it evaporate, so, when you come to a period where the self inquiry ceases, then it all rushes back in like a tidal wave. Not all that pleasant.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2012 :  11:30:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Perej and welcome to the AYP Forums!

Here's my take on it....

To me, what you are experiencing is the result of an imbalanced approach to self inquiry and/or spiritual practice. The truth that there is "no self" needs to be balanced with the truth that "you" exist in a body, on the Earth. So, if I were you I would be asking the question; "How do I balance/reconcile these two seemingly opposing truths, that there is no "me" yet we *do* exist in a body in time and space?"

In my experience, balance is acheived by fully engaging with Life on all levels and using just the right amount of practice (a "witness" cultivating meditation like AYP Deep Meditation being the core of the practice) to keep purification and inner opening happening at a manageable level. For me, right now, this means only meditating once a day, for a very short period of time (15min max right now), and then going to work, doing the dishes, picking up dogsh*t, doing the grocery shopping, cooking, doing laundry, cleaning my home, spending time playing with my daughter, and doing all the other day to day stuff that needs doing. If there is not enough "regular activity" or if there is too much practicing, I end up somewhere similar to where you are... feeling disengaged and having difficulties staying present with whatever is happening in the moment.

Anyway, thought I would chime in here as your post is something I can easily relate to and have some experience with. Hope it helps in some way.

Love!
Carson
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Steve

272 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2012 :  12:58:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Steve's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Perej,

Welcome to the forum. Carson offers very straightforward, clear and practical advice. 'LIFE-LIVING' is part of who-what we are. As part of the play of manifestation it is intrinsic to our very nature. Yoga, inquiry have a number of stages. Early on as one experiences the witness, seemingly there is a separation from activity, a freeing of one's innate unbounded awareness from the customary self-identified levels of doing and control. As inquiry and realization deepen, life becomes an ever expanding deepening expression of our true love nature. Eventually, all separation melts away as we become part of the love. Here love and life are directly realized as intrinsic to who-what we are. The play of existence is lived naturally, joyfully.

Fear not. Every experience we have has deeper purpose and meaning. Carson's comments are right-on. A balanced practical approach to yoga that includes DM, self-pacing, grounding, engaging and living life is a must. In addition to DM, a simple heart practice could be of benefit to help balance out the mindfulness and depersonalization that has resulted from your inquiry practice. As you get re-connected to Heart, a pathway will be created that allows Source's love to help support your re-engagement with life and others. Source's Love is given freely every moment. The offer of help is always there. However, we need to learn how to once again accept and let it happen in our life. As you do, the love can work and help remove blockages on every level, physical, emotional, mental and spiritual.

If you are interested in a simple effective heart practice. One that I have found useful and integrated well with AYP, I recommend the book 'Smile to Your Heart Meditations: Simple Practices for Peace, Health and Spiritual Growth' by Irmansyah Effendi. It is available through Amazon. Additional information and free downloads are also available at www.open-your-heart.org.uk .

Wishing you the best. Much love to you.

Steve
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maheswari

Lebanon
2390 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2012 :  1:38:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
hello Perej
welcome to the forums....all the given answers are excellent....
it seems you are in non relational enquiry and Carson gave you very good tips to sail through this phase
in case you dont understand what is meant by relational/ non relational enquiry please check this lesson:
http://www.aypsite.org/325.html
TGIY
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Perej

United Kingdom
10 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  10:42:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
With all due respect folks, meditation got me into this mess, how on earth is it supposed to get me out? I feel completely dead inside and like my life will never be the same again. To be honest I think I will be like this forever. I hate it so much.
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  10:56:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Perej, your original post said you were practising self inquiry ? That isn't deep meditation. The trouble is you have learned to jump before you can walk and it's a very static state.
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Perej

United Kingdom
10 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  11:38:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I was practicing meditation frequently. Focusing on the breath and looking inwardly - is this not meditation?

I find now that I feel so uncomfortable sitting still because of how weird and spaced out I feel.

How should I meditate? How will this help?
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  11:55:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Perej

To me, it sounds like you need to integrate all that has been realized. This means getting right into the nitty gritty of life.

As I mentioned in my previous post, balance, in my opinion, is achieved through finding the right amount of practice and balancing that with lots of regular daily activity. For you, at this point, it sounds like the right amount of practice is no practice. It can be like that sometimes, especially when we have overdone practices in the recent past. It's like going to the gym and working out for 24hrs straight..... when we wake up the next morning we're so sore from overworking ourselves that going to the gym again anytime soon is not even an option. In order to have an effective workout we need to do just the right amount of working out for our specific body, everyday. Not too much, not too little. And in the in-between time we go about our regular day to day business. It's the exact same with spiritual practice. Too much too fast and our body/mind can not handle it. Then we have to take time off, find balance again, and then slowly work ourselves back into a manageable routine.

So, all that said, I personally would recommend to you that you take some time off of all spiritual practices, spend as much time as you can getting lots of physical exercise, doing lots of normal day to day "non-spiritual" stuff, and when you are feeling "normal" again, begin considering having a short meditation practice every morning and see how you feel. If you begin to feel spaced out etc again, back off of the practices. If you start to notice more peace and abiding happiness, then continue on for a few months like that. If no negative symptoms are noticed after a few months you could then consider upping your meditation time or adding a second practice, giving things time to acclimatize and then re-evaluating.

Anyway, wishing you all the best, hope this all sorts itself out soon.

Love,
Carson
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  11:59:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Perej

I was practicing meditation frequently. Focusing on the breath and looking inwardly - is this not meditation?

I find now that I feel so uncomfortable sitting still because of how weird and spaced out I feel.

How should I meditate? How will this help?



Hi Perej, the meditation at AYP is the inward repetition of the mantra 'I am' . It's in the lessons. It's different from breath meditation. The idea is develop a rising inner stillness through steady, twice daily practice. In effect it creates a stable ground for more aggressive practices such as Self Inquiry. It needs to be combined with self pacing and grounding as suggested by others.

The style of meditation that you have been practising hasn't developed that stability. It's like running before you have warmed up, instead of getting faster, instead you just end up with torn muscles..

This is the problem with none relational self inquiry when sufficient stability hasn't been attained, it results in the symptoms you are experiencing. This is the reason AYP only suggest that self inquiry is attempted only after sufficient stability has been created.

One of things AYP considers important is to self pace and ground whenever signs of overload are present.
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Perej

United Kingdom
10 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  12:16:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, thanks everyone, much appreciated.

But I don't understand fully why I should meditate anymore. I have realized that I don't exist, is this not the end goal? I am not a seperate self..
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  12:48:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Perej

quote:
Originally posted by Perej

But I don't understand fully why I should meditate anymore. I have realized that I don't exist, is this not the end goal?



Maybe for you, definitely not for me. For me, the goal is to be here, now. Always. In this, the goal is ever present and never ending. As they say, the journey is the destination.

Love!
Carson
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axelschlotzhauer

Germany
150 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  1:27:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I think the forum already sufficiently treated the specifics of the personal situation at hand and how the sight of this system is on it.Deep silence and meditation before self-inquiry will give the solution by this first book.

Why? It seems that the stable structure of this system, Kriyayoga and group is attracting giving you some relief and peace. Words alone cannot do it.

So it is onto you if you leave meditation for some time or use the book at best as audiobook for informing you how to do.This changes already your situation till you consider the practice proposed,

Axel



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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  1:29:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Perej

Ok, thanks everyone, much appreciated.

But I don't understand fully why I should meditate anymore. I have realized that I don't exist, is this not the end goal? I am not a seperate self..



So many times.

You have this understanding intellectually, it's like understanding that a rocket can go up in space but you havent built the launch pad.

Self inquiry digs a dry well, the hole is there, but no water is present. That's how it feels doesn't it? You dig and dig and all that you achieved was a barren, dry hole and you are still dying for a drink. Your exhausted and disillusioned by the effort and you seem no nearer quenching your thirst. Down at the bottom of a dry well the everyday surface has now also become an effort to reach and the light is dimmer.

Following the AYP method the water comes up to meet you as you dig down. It's not so hard that way, everything is working with you.

Sometimes a few of us go off track and have begin self inquiry too early. We ignore the sage advice and start digging furiously using self inquiry to try and speed the process, but the water stays stubbornly out of reach for all those except the unusually ripe. So, many of us have experienced what you are going through. We meditate to gain our first mouthfuls of water , but we don't want to remain in the well, so we climb back to the surface and work to let the water fill right up to the surface, then we can drink at leisure.

Excuse the well and water story, but that's the best way I have of explaining it.
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maheswari

Lebanon
2390 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  1:39:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
I find now that I feel so uncomfortable sitting still because of how weird and spaced out I feel.

real self enquiry does not lead to feeling weird or spaced out...on the contrary it about being down to earth and at ease...
you are missing out something that is why you are uncomfortable, and this something is inner silence
inner silence can be cultivated only by meditation...that is why meditation should always be practiced even if one has "reached the goal"
currently it is better for you not to meditate cause you are overloaded...you need to integrate all your spiritual gains into daily life...go out and get active...forget about spiritual practices....
when things get calmer you can start meditating for a short time to gradually build up the missing ingredient of inner silence
as long as there is no inner silence there will be agitation like your case now
when inner silence is present enough you will feel totally grounded
that is in ayp we start with meditation then enquiry, not the other way around!
Love

Edited by - maheswari on Apr 14 2012 1:49:24 PM
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cosmic

USA
821 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  1:43:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome Perej

quote:
Originally posted by Perej

But I don't understand fully why I should meditate anymore. I have realized that I don't exist, is this not the end goal?


Are you suffering? If so, that would be one reason to meditate (at some point). I agree totally with Carson in this thread. You might need a "humanity break" and just live and enjoy your life without worrying about spiritual things or practices.

Realizing that you don't exist is only part of it. Many people realize this and it leaves them in a hopeless, despairing state. The other part of it is realizing that you are everything. Then there is no suffering, only Love flowing to all beings.

This one might be useful: Lesson 122

I wouldn't force practices if you aren't feeling it. If there's a sense of "should" around anything in life, then why do it?

Love [img]icon_heart.gif[/img]
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Christi

United Kingdom
3731 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  4:17:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Perej,

Breathing meditation is quite a gentle form of meditation, but when practised intensely and when combined with hard-core forms of self-inquiry it can lead to excess purification symptoms. These symptoms can include becoming ungrounded, feeling spaced out, and feeling unbalanced. It sounds like you are suffering from all of these.

If I were you I would take a break from all spiritual practices for a while and concentrate on getting more grounded. Being active outdoors helps with this, interacting socially with others, taking long walks in the country, that sort of thing. Forget about the idea that you don't exist. Clearly you do, or you wouldn't be writing on this forum.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2012 :  10:13:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Being active outdoors helps with this, interacting socially with others, taking long walks in the country, that sort of thing. Forget about the idea that you don't exist. Clearly you do, or you wouldn't be writing on this forum.



Ah, those are words of wisdom. To echo and expand upon walking in the country, let me suggest walking barefoot in the dirt, grass, sand, or whatever earthen element you have access to, so you can give yourSELF a little podiatric stimulation for those weary feet.

Also, let me affirm and celebrate the proclamation of the very wise CarsonZi: that the purpose of spiritual endeavors (for him, and me too) is not to annihilate, extinguish, eradicate, or kill the so-called ego-small-self. If anything, spiritual practice and living has only expanded and broke down barriers put up by this smaller sense of self, in my experience.

There's quite a few teachers that constantly portray ego as enemy (and some forum posters in here, as well ), but the party line of AYP and Yogani does not buy into that extreme and lop-sided view at all. I highly recommend reading the following profound and delicious lesson, called The Transformation of Ego:
http://www.aypsite.org/428.html

Godspeed, and by all means, remember to L-I-V-E!
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Perej

United Kingdom
10 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2012 :  6:04:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guys, appreciate all the responses, what a lovely forum.

Will the things you have suggested allow me to cleanse my repressed emotions? It feels like I have strongly supressed emotions in my body, but I can't connect them to a sense of self anymore so they are just sitting there, it's this horrible dark energy. I suppose Eckhart Tolle would call it the 'pain body' but his book did not help me one bit.
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karl

United Kingdom
1812 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2012 :  6:13:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Just takes time, bit like the hiatus on the grieving process it doesn't remain buried.
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Radharani

USA
843 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2012 :  01:27:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit Radharani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed - the repressed emotions will eventually come up in the process of purification when you are ready to return to meditation. no rush. This will all pass with time as your experience integrates. Meanwhile I concur with the suggestions made above, that you back off from spiritual practices, except maybe prayer, if you find that helpful, and engage in normal grounding activities of daily life such as walking outdoors. I would certainly forget about self-inquiry for now; whether or not you exist is really a moot point and realizing it has not done you a damn bit of good (digging the dry well and all). When you feel ready to resume spiritual practices I would start over with Deep Meditation, to establish the inner silence, and eventually add Spinal Breathing to address the emotions that are burdening you and do some housecleaning. One step at a time. All the best to you.
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AYPforum

351 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2012 :  12:15:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
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Perej

United Kingdom
10 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2012 :  5:58:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Radharani

Agreed - the repressed emotions will eventually come up in the process of purification when you are ready to return to meditation. no rush. This will all pass with time as your experience integrates. Meanwhile I concur with the suggestions made above, that you back off from spiritual practices, except maybe prayer, if you find that helpful, and engage in normal grounding activities of daily life such as walking outdoors. I would certainly forget about self-inquiry for now; whether or not you exist is really a moot point and realizing it has not done you a damn bit of good (digging the dry well and all). When you feel ready to resume spiritual practices I would start over with Deep Meditation, to establish the inner silence, and eventually add Spinal Breathing to address the emotions that are burdening you and do some housecleaning. One step at a time. All the best to you.



I just feel like meditation would make me feel more detached and more spaced out to be honest. What meditation should I do? What is deep meditation? Sorry for all the questions!

I can't even begin to explain how I feel really, I just feel like I'm not even here, like I'm going insane. I feel like i've lost my mind. I am seriously skeptical when someone says they have felt like this before, because trust me, this is life changing.

EDIT:- SORRY DOUBLE POST
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AumNaturel

Canada
687 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2012 :  7:39:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
To avoid overwhelming with more direct lesson links, there's the "Start Lessons Here" found on the left hand side of this page under the red "Key Lessons." If you want to jump ahead, there's the "Topic Index" which you can find after going to "AYP Home" in that same top-center menu bar.

Taking it from the top is generally helpful to put everything into context, and you'll come across deep meditation very early on.
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