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 hormesis and Kumbhak
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2006 :  12:12:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
I'm always interested in 'the science' of Yoga.

Yogani said:
[holding breath] places a slight challenge on the
oxygen supply in the body. This is what draws prana up into the
nervous system from its huge storehouse in the pelvic region


Interestingly, to me anyway, this may be another example of exploitation, in Yoga, of a hormetic mechanism -- that is, the positive exploitation of the body's corrective counter-reaction to a normally 'negative' condition. In exploiting hormesis, we deliberately establish a mild 'negative' condition with the intention of obtaining the body's 'positive' counter-reaction to it.

I've noticed that exploitation of hormesis seems to pop up again and again in Yoga.
In my mind, possibility of a hormetic mechanism stand out in three things in particular which I have found so far --

1. Amaroli, where we suddenly increase the concentration of the body's own chemical toxins, to positive overall effect;
2. Hatha Yoga Asanas: stretching of muscles in asana, which subjects them to a mild and broadly-distributed physical trauma and forces a response from the body of broadly-distributed healing activity;
3. and Kumbhak -- exploitation of a temporary, mild, oxygen deficit.

There's room for a good yoga/science essay some time, called 'Yoga and Hormesis'.

By the way, acupuncture may be another exploitation of 'hormesis'.

(should this be in Yoga, Science and Philosophy? Well, it seems to fit both forums... I chose what I thought was best.)


Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 10 2006 2:52:15 PM

yogani

USA
5192 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2006 :  12:58:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David:

Excellent observations. 'Yoga and Hormesis' is an area where science can dig in and find some of the mechanics of human spiritual transformation.

The guru is in you.


PS -- Fasting is another one which is being explored elsewhere here. It is also a case where gentle challenging of the system brings out hidden capabilities for transformation in the human neurobiology. That is why we find fasting in many of the spiritual traditions.
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2006 :  2:46:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Indeed, thanks! Fasting is another to add to the list!

And indeed, fasting is an example where the 'challenge' (and required resulting positive response) are operating on two levels at once: on the physical level, and on the mental/spiritual/willpower level.


Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 10 2006 2:53:19 PM
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yogani

USA
5192 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2006 :  3:36:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David:

And holdback in tantric sex too ...

"Yama" (restraint) is all over the place in yoga as stimulus, with the response coming from the inner machinery of purification and opening. Not exactly the same as hormesis, but along similar lines of "challenging" the neurobiology in particular ways. If yama is measured (self-paced) in daily practices, then the purification and opening can be sustained over the long term. That is where the real benefit is found in the principle of restraint, in long term cultivation. Then the inner functioning we are cultivating becomes self-sustaining, and we become it -- moving beyond our previous level of functioning to a broader view of our existance and relationship with our surroundings.

The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2006 :  4:51:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, not all of that is 'hormesis' in the conventional sense, but it could be called 'generalized hormesis', meaning deliberate exposure to a moderate trauma as a challenge, in order to exploit the positive response and use it as a means to progress.

It's fascinating. It's wonderful that so much of it can be broken down to one pattern -- a challenge, a difficulty, skillfully and deliberately applied, to body or spirit -- in order to produce a positive response, in body or spirit or both; and how this pattern exists at entirely different levels of Yoga, without the pattern being explicitly recognized, sometimes hidden and biochemical...

Indeed, karma-yoga can be seen as the skillful manipulation of one's own attitude to (or exposure to) the difficulties/challenges of life so that the positive spiritual response can flow, unimpeded, from the challenges.....

Hey, it all makes me wonder if some of the self-mortifiers/extreme ascetics were onto something better than I thought they were.... There is certainly that mythology of Brahma granting boons in response to extreme 'tapas'.... I used to think they were 'misguided zealots' -- but maybe I was too rash... any thoughts?

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 10 2006 5:09:27 PM
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weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2006 :  5:25:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David and Yogani,

I think it's possible that the pleasures that our minds will seek also could come under the principle of hormesis. If the mind is starved of sensual pleasures, or if there are great difficulties in material life, that has been known to cause an increasing interest in spiritual matters, to find pleasure there instead. I think ascetics and many spiritual seekers have been applying this principle.

Edited by - weaver on Apr 10 2006 5:28:23 PM
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yogani

USA
5192 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2006 :  5:49:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David:

There are extremists in every branch of spiritual practice. Maybe it works for a few, but not for many.

It would be like driving 100 miles-per-hour to work every day. It would save time, if one managed to get there. If everyone did it, how many would arrive?

There is no doubt that any of us can go much faster with AYP if we choose to, with extreme discomfort (mortification) being the price for the extra progress. How many would fall off the path along the way? A lot. And most would be very unhappy with me for suggesting such an approach, which I am not!

You know, I have seen some extremists along the way here. They usually have a wild look in their cyber-eyes, a narrow focus on one do-or-die practice, and have a tendency to drop in and drop back out.

Could "mortification of the flesh" be done in a systematic way for spiritual purposes? I suppose so, but that is not what we are into in AYP. Somewhere between doing nothing and mortifying the flesh is the middle road of consistently and gently challenging the neurobiology to evolve over a long period of time. And evolve it will.

I'm not Judas, and am not looking for his help. These temples will disintegrate soon enough without any extra help. In the meantime, let's make the most of our opportunity.

The guru is in you.
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Alvin Chan

Hong Kong
407 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2006 :  02:56:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Nice disscusion. For fasting, though, there are many better reasons to explain its positive effects. Among the most important is: during fasting, our body have a low supply of "new" nutrients. So the tissues and cells have to release all their reserves. In the process the toxins are also released. With enough water, these toxins can then be removed.

This also explain why it's important to drink enough water during fasting. And also during the initial stages of fasting one may feel WORSE.

Some do fasting for training the mind. But we have many other ways to train our mind, like strict Brahmacharya. So I won't do fasting simply to train he mind.
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Anthem

1608 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2006 :  11:04:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Yogani,
quote:
There is no doubt that any of us can go much faster with AYP if we choose to, with extreme discomfort (mortification) being the price for the extra progress. How many would fall off the path along the way? A lot. And most would be very unhappy with me for suggesting such an approach, which I am not!

This would be pretty frightening to me. I have experimented (albeit lightly) with doing more than I should and not only do you get grumpy, irritable or any host of negative feelings of discomfort (which are stored in our bodies), but your life tends to attract in circumstances for your purification too.

So in other words, you are emotionally unstable to begin with, then you get to face some situation you dread at the same time! I think this could actually set you back if it is just too much and make your spiritual progress slower in the end?

Maybe if I had a cave I could go hide in while I tried it, then I might be more inclined!

I find when I get my self-pacing right that I can go through things with so much more inner happiness and positive energy that it makes life so much more fun to live.

Edited by - Anthem on Apr 11 2006 11:08:03 AM
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2006 :  11:14:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yogani said:
There is no doubt that any of us can go much faster with AYP if we choose to, with extreme discomfort (mortification) being the price for the extra progress. How many would fall off the path along the way? A lot. And most would be very unhappy with me for suggesting such an approach, which I am not!


I agree with this. Going deliberately into extreme difficulty should not be recommended to the public, and indeed you should not recommend it. The only thing I am observing is that, whereas the majority who do it may not be wise, a few who do it may nonetheless be following wisdom. What is wise for one is not necessarily wise for another.


Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 11 2006 11:29:41 AM
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2006 :  11:22:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Alvin said:
Among the most important is: during fasting, our body have a low supply of "new" nutrients. So the tissues and cells have to release all their reserves. In the process the toxins are also released. With enough water, these toxins can then be removed.


By the way, if this is true, it's not outside the term of 'generalized hormesis' as I defined it. Exploitation of the positive benefit from the body's corrective response to a normally negative, or challenging stimulus. (Yes, even exercise comes in the definition if you make it broad enough...).

By the way, I've often wondered if this is a scientifically accepted explanation of the toxin-elimination mechanism that follows from fasting? Is it over-simplified in some way? I mean, why do the 'toxins' come out when the 'reserves' come out? Any ideas?


Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 11 2006 11:30:16 AM
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Manipura

USA
870 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2006 :  12:03:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Manipura's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Exploitation of the positive benefit from the body's corrective response to a normally negative, or challenging stimulus. (Yes, even exercise comes in the definition if you make it broad enough...).



I was thinking this too. Pushing the body to extremes to break down the muscles so that, when they repair, they are bigger, stronger. Lactic acid is released in the process (toxin).

I saw this Tshirt on a ridiculously buff guy at the gym: Pain is weakness leaving the body. :) A good motto for hormesis?
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2006 :  12:11:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, it's funny, but not a good motto for hormesis. There's a lot of painful stuff you can do, with more loss than gain -- not hormesis. Also, some probably hormetic things are not painful as such -- amaroli, muscle-stretching, even kumbhak....
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Alvin Chan

Hong Kong
407 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2006 :  12:27:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
David wrote:

quote:
By the way, I've often wondered if this is a scientifically accepted explanation of the toxin-elimination mechanism that follows from fasting? Is it over-simplified in some way? I mean, why do the 'toxins' come out when the 'reserves' come out? Any ideas?


I am not sure if it's a "proved" fact. But it's a reasonable one. "Scientific" in the sense that it's among the most reasonable explanation. One joking way to explain why this is true: our cells are too stupid to distinguish between "toxins" and "reserves", so on fasting they let everything come out. Don't take it too serious, though

Btw, when the stored fats come out, the fat-soluble toxins trapped will probably come out with them.


Edited by - Alvin Chan on Apr 11 2006 12:30:52 PM
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2006 :  12:53:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Alvin said:
One joking way to explain why this is true: our cells are too stupid to distinguish between "toxins" and "reserves", so on fasting they let everything come out.


Yes, that's the picture I was afraid of. Which made me think that the real picture was different.

I think the 'real' picture may be more like the body comes to realize that there may be a serious shortage of food coming up. So it has less to do in terms of storing food -- it can no longer store food -- and it knows that maybe there are some dangerous times ahead, from which it must protect itself; so it tries to get itself into as good possible shape it can, under the constraints. By, for example, getting rid of toxins, and running a very 'tight ship' biochemically.

Doesn't that make sense?


Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 11 2006 12:59:13 PM
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Alvin Chan

Hong Kong
407 Posts

Posted - Apr 12 2006 :  02:33:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi David,

quote:
I think the 'real' picture may be more like the body comes to realize that there may be a serious shortage of food coming up. So it has less to do in terms of storing food -- it can no longer store food -- and it knows that maybe there are some dangerous times ahead, from which it must protect itself; so it tries to get itself into as good possible shape it can, under the constraints. By, for example, getting rid of toxins, and running a very 'tight ship' biochemically.


Besides your insights, are there anything which makes you believe this?

I think, with obvious reasons, that for most of us our "appetite" is not suitable for modern life, where food is too easy to get. Our appetite is designed to consume more than (may be a little more) we need when we can, so that we have more reserve when we HAVE TO starve. That's a good strategy for our ancesters. But in a modern country like USA, we can eat as many as we want. So we end up eating more than enough.

So may be it's not fasting that helps us, but that eating too much weaken us. It makes our body feel too secure to work! And fasting is just a chance for our body to rediscover its original functions. Not something "extra".

Similarly for exercise, which our ancesters don't have to find spare time to do.

Makes any sense?
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Sparkle

Ireland
1457 Posts

Posted - Apr 12 2006 :  05:11:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit Sparkle's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Alvin said
quote:
So may be it's not fasting that helps us, but that eating too much weaken us. It makes our body feel too secure to work! And fasting is just a chance for our body to rediscover its original functions. Not something "extra".

Similarly for exercise, which our ancesters don't have to find spare time to do.



I like this Alvin, it sounds right to me. This is a great thread and it seems to point to the possible fact that to function properly we need to be stretched a little in most of what we do.

Unfortunately, it reminds me of my boss when he is setting us work targets of, "stretching but achievable", I suppose there is truth everywhere, if we know how to look

Louis
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Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2006 :  12:28:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes our genetic data was mostly formed when there wasn't always food available. So when we eat sugars and starches, it creates insulin that causes us to store fat. Most people today are somewhat dehydrated all the time, so the toxins don't get cleared out like they should. so they get stored in the fat.
One reason we fight disease better and feel better when fasting is that it takes a lot of energy to process food.
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2006 :  08:22:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Alvin asked:
Besides your insights, are there anything which makes you believe this?


No, that one is 100% speculation.

Yes, I believe the picture that we are adapted to significantly less food. Which is one way of describing the problem.

The mechanism I speculated on doesn't contradict anything you proposed by the way. It fits in perfectly with it.

Ether said:
One reason we fight disease better and feel better when fasting is that it takes a lot of energy to process food.


Yes, and maybe in our evolutionary history, when food was available on an on/off basis, the body had a strategy of consuming resources processing and storing food when it was available, and then doing extra 'purifying' when not.



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Alvin Chan

Hong Kong
407 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2006 :  1:19:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
David wrote:

quote:
The mechanism I speculated on doesn't contradict anything you proposed by the way. It fits in perfectly with it.


Yes. I was just trying to give a explanation from the point of view of evolution. Almost any human nature can be explained in this way. (The weak point of evolution is that it explains well, but predict not so well in the case of human behaviour)

Ether wrote:

quote:
Yes our genetic data was mostly formed when there wasn't always food available.


As far as a modern city is concerned, I can't find any obvious evolutionary drive for today's world. Intelligence, physical strength, ability to store up fat, functions of immune systems... all these do not matter so much on the no. of off-spring you produce now. In the past it matters very much.

This lack of evolutionary drive may be weakening us. For example, as our immune system is no longer important for living (and thus reproducing, for most cases), it will be weakened gradually through the random mutation (since our modern society do not eliminate the "bad" genes).

The changes may be very slow, but it's happening.....
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 13 2006 :  5:03:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Alvin said:
This lack of evolutionary drive may be weakening us.


That's true -- the big question is, how far will it go?

And there are major stressors ahead for society as Science begins to prove beyond doubt what the effect of particular genes is, and how powerful they are.

What happens in the long run is anyone's guess.
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Alvin Chan

Hong Kong
407 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2006 :  02:09:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
David wrote

quote:
That's true -- the big question is, how far will it go?

And there are major stressors ahead for society as Science begins to prove beyond doubt what the effect of particular genes is, and how powerful they are.

What happens in the long run is anyone's guess.


Right. We probably will have some scientific breakthrough on the understanding and manipulation of human genes. If not, the lack of evolutionary drive can weaken us quite a lot as time goes by. Unless there are some policy on birth control as related to health status, intelligence, educational background (like Singapore which have some policies which favour the children of Degree holder)! But such policies are against the moral standard of most liberal, modern countries.

The fall of many ancient civilizations may give us some insights on how far it can go. I am over-simplifying by ignoring other factors, but evolution does explain a lot. Especially the fall of the nobles throughout the history who have very little evolutionary drive.

The lessons for those civilizations may be: disappearing forever! So at last the "bad" genes" are eliminated. But we, because of our secure system and technology, can live and breed regardless of our genes. So......

Sometimes I imagine a possible future (of course it's not even a guess, just an imagination) of mankind: they will be living in a heaven (??) where they will be fed by technology of their past (ie. OUR present technological breakthroughs) they never care to understand. And what they have to do, actively, are just : have sex, eat, sleep, have sex, eat,....... sleep,.....

Edited by - Alvin Chan on Apr 14 2006 10:23:20 AM
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Lili

Netherlands
372 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2006 :  04:44:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan


Sometimes I imagine a possible future (of course it's not even a guess, just an imagination) of mankind: they will be living in a heaven (??) where they will be fed by technology of their past (ie. OUR present technological breakthroughs) they never care to understand. And what they have to do, actively, are just : have sex, eat, sleep, have sex, eat,....... sleep,.....



On this you can check out the book by A. Huxley called 'Brave new world' - he is musing on exactly this type of society.
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2006 :  10:25:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply

Alvin said:
And what they have to do, actively, are just : have sex, eat, sleep, have sex, eat,....... sleep,.....


Such a society would do a lot more than that! What about create, and enjoy creation (art, music, literature, science, nature), Meditate, philosophize, go hiking in the hills, explore the oceans, do yoga, dance, worship, sing, laugh, form clubs and societies...

Put everything you think is good into the list!

Alvin said:
they never care to understand


I think they would care to understand. Life loves to grow and expand. When someone has a capability, and they are healthy, they love to use it.


Lili said:
On this you can check out the book by A. Huxley called 'Brave new world' - he is musing on exactly this type of society.


I would say not at all. His book portrays a society that is highly genetically aware, but is as far from heaven as you could imagine. I think his book is largely a warning against becoming genetically aware, or at least, against acting from that awareness.

Much as if, before humans developed the science of Fire, a novelist who disapproved of fire might write a book in which people did use fire, and in the book, everyone burns to death at some point.

Such a novelist might call his book, 'Fire -- the Warm New World".

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 14 2006 10:46:56 AM
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shaktipath

Croatia
12 Posts

Posted - Jun 05 2009 :  5:32:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit shaktipath's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dearest
may this old thread finds you embraced in throbbing love and compassion from within!

Just writhing to give another perspective on this 3 issues from my personal experience and although i have not gone into much depths with them my positive experience might be of some interest.
i have stoped all practices few years back as my life became alive and vibrant, joy in itself...recently while witnessing my deep breathing and retention have started to encounter flames of shakty and her marvel. Decided to find more, she led my to this forum and to realization of kumbakha. To my observance same awakening happens in asanas when streching and RELAXING into it.
Witnessing is the key and there is not supposed to be any hardship.
So thirdly -Amaroli was completely new term for me and i gave it a go to see what is it all about. Must say that such strong energy enhancement have not expected and that it works wonder with no negative effects whatsoever. Of course witnessing helps as mind gives so many silly ideas especially the first time.
s

Edited by - shaktipath on Jun 06 2009 02:43:22 AM
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