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tros
USA
4 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 9:53:29 PM
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Greetings everyone. First of all I would like to thank Yogani for the wonderful lessons. Now, a little background to set up my question.
I was raised to be a cynical, materialistic atheist. I have had clinical depression and/or attention deficit disorder since I began attending public school. While I was growing up I had intense pressure on me from my parents to succeed academically and get on a white collar career track. I took accelerated coursework in high school, graduated a year early, and then crashed and burned when I found that the course I was taking was not the one I wanted.
Generally I have found that my depression comes either from demoralizing environmental factors or from my body's own deficiency of one neurotransmitter or another. There is something about me that makes me depressed even when I have no reason to be depressed. I first started doing yoga asanas on a camping trip and I found that they helped my mood tremendously. When I came home I found this site on Erowid and started following the lessons. Now, almost 2 months later, I have a daily routine that I need to follow in order to be in my normal, non-depressed state. I have stopped taking antidepressants, alcohol, and stimulants (including caffeine).
I wanted to know if anyone came to be interested in yoga via issues with depression, addiction, or psychedelic drugs. I was turned on to the idea of yoga by my experience while smoking DMT, which is an intense out-of-body experience. It felt as if my third eye was physically popping out of my scull aftewards, and from then on this way of looking at the body has made sense to me. Also, I have found that LSD and LSA can be valuable in imprinting the techniques described in the lessons. I was familiar with this aspect of psychedelics already because I used them with drumming exercizes, so applying the principle to yoga was just a small step.
What are your opinions on psychedelic drugs? I have found them to be a very useful tool for spiritual development. In any case, the meditation techniques in AYP have been very useful to me in integrating the massive psychic load of psychedelic experiences, and I am grateful for that. Thanks! |
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maya_1347
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2006 : 10:36:57 PM
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I would buy and read any book called “drug for dummies”. I do not have much knowledge about them even I have difficulty to take medication.
I know yoga/meditation creates balance in the body. Balance of energy and life. I had a friend who was a smoker after practicing meditation had no interest to smoke.
Love and light
Maryam
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 01:16:29 AM
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Welcome to AYP, tros. Yours is a great question, and one that I've been wondering myself. I'll be curious to see how open people are to discussing their use of entheogens on a public forum. I believe entheogens could be a fantastic tool, used in moderation and with discipline. I would consider anything that pulls the gaze inward with clarity and precision to be worth checking out. Meditation does this really effectively. The other substances? Not quite so much precision. That's not to say that they're not valid approaches - I believe that they are - but one has to be willing to sort through a lot of static, negotiate some serious mind traffic, and then to integrate the journey into their everyday existence. A big task, and a heroic one, if you're prepared for it. 'Nother words, I believe that their use requires a heavy dose of inner work before, during, and after in order to truly internalize and gain the spiritual insights from the experience. I'd never recommend it to someone who hadn't engaged in some type of inner work already, such as meditation, therapy, spiritual exploration, etc.
I'm glad that you found AYP! |
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Lavazza
69 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 04:14:09 AM
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According to a study almost all zen students in the US have tried psychedelic drugs. I have come across a lot of yogis who have tried psychedelic drugs, but all have stopped after a while or already before taking up yoga. I have never heard any yogi say that he or she is continuing taking psychedelic drugs while practicing.
I doubt that many totally straight mainstream people get interested in yoga and I also doubt that any druggies can have a steady yoga practice.
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 08:52:55 AM
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Welcome Tros!
I get asked about this from time to time in private email, sometimes by someone who has used drugs as a stepping stone to yoga or other spiritual practices, and other times by someone who regards drugs themselves as the path. Invariably, the former is much better off in terms of clarity and progress than the latter.
Here is a recent interchange with an aspirant who used drugs for spiritual purposes and then moved beyond them:
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Q: ...I am genuinely curious if you know about how and why marijuana affects kundalini. I know that some sadhus and yogis smoke marijuana or hashish to aid in their meditation, and I think its affect on kundalini is probably why. For a while I experimented with that but deemed it a crutch and hated how it polluted my body, so I quit for good. I do not put strange foreign substances into my body anymore.
A: Drugs can provide an initial (and artificial) introduction to the inner dimensions. This may inspire one to take up practices. Once spiritual practices are underway, then the drugs quickly become counter-productive to purification and opening to higher states, and improved inner seeing from practices reveals this. This scenario of drugs leading to spiritual practices has been fairly common over the past 50 years at least -- drugs as a stepping stone to something more.
For others, the spiritual momentum of past lives (or from somewhere) is more than enough to launch one on a path of practices in this life. In that case, drugs will not be a factor at all, and will be seen as an impediment right from the start. It all depends on the inner condition of the person.
Whichever way it happens, as our natural inner light emerges via effective practices, drugs will be a hindrance rather than a help. Why use a facsimile when we can have the real thing? No additional imprints are needed. We'd like to remove all imprints. Then we can live full time the truth that is inherent within us. 
See also lesson 29 -- http://www.aypsite.org/29.html
All the best on your path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 10:12:17 AM
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Hello tros,
depression and Yoga have been discussed before, and the threads are worth looking at. In particular, see:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....hTerms=chest
Jim mentions a great exercise for helping depression, which I am quoting below:
I'm not suffering from depression myself, but I do think I sometimes have dysthymia, which is like a really low-grade depression which is less than clinical depression. This particular exercise helps me a lot.
Jim said:
Here's what you ought to shoot for as a bare minimum. Chest opening. That's what it all boils down to. the Iyengar system has developed "restorative" ways of doing asanas that are passive and require no energy, but there are ways to use blocks and bolsters (big pillows) and blankets to put your body in the position where the energy can flow, open up your chest, and that's exactly what you need. I learned it in classes, so I haven't used a book for this, but I just looked around Amazon and this looks like a great guide: "Relax and Renew" by Judith Lasater. I hope you'll buy it. You'll need to spend some money to buy a bolster and stuff (if money's a problem, email me and I'll chip in some). But if you'll get into restorative yoga, mostly chest openings, you'll have huge results, I can honestly promise you. At very very least, it's something you absolutely will be ok doing during all but the most severe depressions.
Here's the basic chest opener, to get you started (Victor, correct me if I get this wrong, ok?). Take a yoga block (never buy the plastic ones, which won't support your weight....must be made from wood) and place it on end on the floor. Lay down on your back on top of the brick with the brick just below shoulder blades (with the narrowest edge facing your neck). Try to relax everything. Breathe. Move the brick very slighly up and down every few minutes.
Actually, that's an extreme one. You may perceive it to be painful (it's not really pain...it's energy hitting blockages...and it goes away pretty fast). But it's a cure for what you've got. There are gentler versions of this in the book, where you use softer, lower things like blankets and bolsters.
If you need more tips, start a thread in the "asana" section.
I would just add that foam or plastic yoga-blocks, while not as good as the wooden ones, are still good and helpful, so don't leave the exercise undone for lack of wooden yoga-blocks.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 05 2006 10:28:41 AM |
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maya_1347
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 10:18:12 AM
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Welcome Tros!
I am amazed with all these information - Thank you.
Blessing
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 10:53:36 AM
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Welcome Tros. Glad to have you with us...
You sure started an interesting topic here. I am with Maryam here.. will need a book "drugs for dummies" to get me started.. the only drugs I ever was on were antidepressants.. hated them.. but you are talking of a different class of drugs.. I guess I will wait and watch and learn...
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 11:20:51 AM
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Someone said to Yogani in correspondence:
I know that some sadhus and yogis smoke marijuana or hashish to aid in their meditation, and I think its affect on kundalini is probably why.
This is true, but that does not mean that the practice should be considered wise or advisable. Sadhus and Yogis do all sorts of practices and many of them in India belong to strange sects with questionable history and purposes.
A good question to ask is -- looking at the luminaries of India in the past few centuries, how many of them used (or advised) marijuana as a sustained practice?
I believe that sustained marijuana usage messes up the 'command' or 'ajna' quality that is needed to ensure progress in certain stages of enlightenment.
I suspect (but have no proof or solid opinion) that occasional, light marijuana use in the proper context would not be a bad thing. Of course, a big disadvantage is the fact that the law forbids it in most countries.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 12:04:45 PM
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A good resource if anyone is interested:
www.erowid.org |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 1:16:36 PM
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When I was in India some of the travelling sadhus smoked(not sure if it was weed or simply tobacco)but within the Kundalini Maha Yoga system, drugs or alcohol are not encouraged due to the belief that they are contaminants to progress and energy flow.In fact using drugs like LSD can cause a spontaneous awakening and all the problems that can result from such.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 3:29:00 PM
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| Hi tros. I had to say something here just because I spent the greater half of my 44 years doing drugs. I started in junior high with tobacco, alcohol, opiated pot, angel dust. By high school I was doing most everything else. I didn't use a needle until 2001, only because of a fear of them. Didn't take long to flip that fear around to a desire. Except for caffeine I can say I'm fairly sure I'm done (where's the not 100% sure little face?) The lsd, mescaline, psiloscybin, peyote and other 'hallucinogens', and even several days up at a time on massive amounts of meth, could show me things about myself and the universe that made me think drugs were a spiritual thing. But I know (this of course is just my experience) each 'revealing' look into the expansion of my being was like sticking up a periscope out of a dark little place I called me. That periscope always had to 'come down' and there I was again..even worse than before. Little glimpses won't do; the whole bloody self with all it's crap has to be gathered while one is free from the stickies of things like drugs. It all has to be offered at the door of the dark little place with full awakeness, love, patience, forgiveness and let go of before fully leaving the confines of that dark little place. The endless cycle of addiction to the 'comfort' of that awful little place (with all of it's depression) can be added onto with addiction to substances. I reinforced my misery. I finally had no choice but to begin to let go. I was truly dying inside. I never tried dmt. I hear it's a wonder. If thats your thing to do then by all means walk your path. The path of drugs led me to a precipace. If you have ever read 'Be Here Now' by Baba Ram Das, one of the grandfathers of psychotropic experience, you'll read that he reached a similar precipace some forty years ago. When he handed his Master, Neem Karoli Baba (pranams) a ton of psychedelics and the Master ate them and proceeded to beem Bliss as he already is, then Baba Ram Das had found his answer about his drugs and from that point on became a full time yogi and devotee of the awakened Self. Peace and Love, alan |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 3:41:32 PM
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Thanks for sharing this with us, Alan.
I admire your courrage.
Tros:
Welcome!
I have no experience with drugs.....they have never attracted me.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 8:27:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
I would just add that foam or plastic yoga-blocks, while not as good as the wooden ones, are still good and helpful, so don't leave the exercise undone for lack of wooden yoga-blocks.
not recommended. you might do ok with some of these products...if your weight is right. But some products will crumple under some weights, and it's not worth the potential injury. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 8:29:16 PM
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| Marijuana wreaks hell on concentration length. You get "immersive" on stuff, which feels like conversation, but try having a fast moving conversation with someone who smokes a lot of pot, and their eyes go dead after a few secs. They just can't stay with it. Bad. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 09:28:57 AM
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Maybe plastic is a bad idea. If they do break and cause injury, my guess is that lawsuits in the US will drive them out of existence fast, if they haven't already.
I don't think foam ones can crumple and cause injury though. Or at least not the kind I have had.
When I do that particular exercise, I prefer the effect when I am supported by something hard rather than soft, so wood is my first choice anyway. I think you might have been hinting that the pressure and hardness have value -- maybe in the same way as a deep massage or even acupuncture. In any case, I think the hardness is therapeutic. Do you agree?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 06 2006 11:28:45 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 12:57:08 PM
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As I said and you just agreed: you only have experience with the single product you use. There are many brands of foam bricks. And most people don't support major body weight on yoga bricks, anyway. Do what you want, but those reading along are strongly discouraged (by BKS Iyengar and other illlustrious teachers) from supporting major body weight on anything but wooden blocks.
Since you don't have any experience with lots of yoga products and don't have exposure to a backlog of information on problems practitioners have with products, I'm really not sure why we're even having this discussion. Do what you want, but onlookers are strongly cautioned to use brick blocks when supporting serious body weight. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 1:00:22 PM
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Hmmm, my post may have created some unintended discomfort -- sorry if so. It's all a learning process. If you know better than me on some issue, it may be a learning process for me to learn that you do. Please be patient with my presumption. Take it on a spoon with my high respect. OK, give me this much and forgive me -- there are some well-made foam blocks that won't crumple, and which I don't have to get rid of. I got a pair from Wholefoods -- $11 each, not cheap, and I'm pretty sure they'd take ten times my weight without crumpling.
Anyway, a thing I don't like about them is that they are soft at the surface. Which brings up the question which was the real reason I continued the conversation:
I said:
When I do that particular exercise, I prefer the effect when I am supported by something hard rather than soft, so wood is my first choice anyway. I think you might have been hinting that the pressure and hardness have value -- maybe in the same way as a deep massage or even acupuncture. In any case, I think the hardness is therapeutic. Do you agree?
I was interested in your answer.
The posture is definitely doing a lot through the shape of the body and the position of the head -- this I can feel. I was thinking that hardness (and therefore strong pressure) at the point of support is of value too, making foam blocks not the best even if they are sufficiently firm to ensure support -- this I think I can feel. But I am unsure and am no expert in Hatha, not to mention this exercise. I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
It truly is a superb exercise for its purpose, and the more we get the details down, the better.
This for me may be the 'yoga tip of the year'.
Thanks,
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 06 2006 3:24:52 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 4:31:30 PM
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| The most important thing about this thread, by far, is that you're finding the chest opening helpful. That's AWESOME. It takes a certain amount of dedication to get past what is at first deeemed pain in this exercise. It's not pain...it's energy blockage. And if you can get through it (go to your silence!), there's a lot of reward. |
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will.iam
23 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 10:19:29 PM
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tros,
Glad someone is benefitting from the erowid link, I did a lot of reasearch there in the old days, and emailed them the link here a few months ago. Thought it would be fitting to give back to that community (a link to) information as valuable as I had taken. Anyhow, the thing is that meditation is free both financially and legally. You cant get busted for meditating, and here it dosent cost you anything. The more you get into it the more of a setback you realize intoxication of any kind is. Now I limit myself to the occasional beer session, but even those are becoming more rare.
From an economic perspectice intoxication a waste. You invest all this time into meditation (20min * 2 * 7 = 280min/60 = nealry 5 hours a week *4 = 20 hours a month add spinal breathing and youve got 28 hours) then go back to 1/2 way (at best) its a waste of time to meditate or intoxicate, so one has got to go. You may make progress, but slowly and there is likely an upper limit. I'll never find out tho, b/c the clarity of mind, attitude change, and general plesantness that meditation provide make me want to make it better.
Best of luck with your practice.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 08:03:42 AM
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Very nicely put Bill..
quote:
I'll never find out tho, b/c the clarity of mind, attitude change, and general plesantness that meditation provide make me want to make it better.
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tros
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 11:49:09 AM
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| Thank you David and Bill for your perspective. The chest exercises help a lot. It's nice to have something that can make me feel better for free. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 12:52:57 PM
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Great! And thanks to Jim for bringing the chest exercises info here a few weeks ago. It has proven to be to me one of the best Yogic gifts in quite a while. I hope you continue to use it well and get great benefit from it too, Tros.
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 08 2006 2:08:20 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 10:30:50 AM
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| 2 years back I did Pilates for a while and the instructor used to make us lie down on a foam swimming noodle.. one end below the neck and the rest following the back bone. She had said it was esp. good for me since I have scoliosis and this would help open up my back.. So.. would this be similar to what you are talking about? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 12:38:40 PM
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It sounds to me as if in this exercise you mention, the supporting noodle is along the spine. In the exercise Jim mentions, the support is across the spine and situated below the shoulder-blades.
Got it? In amazon, you should be able to check out the cover of the book Jim mentions, which has the posture in a picture... (That picture has an extra support under the neck, which is not included in the version of the exercise Jim mentions -- it is the large(r) bolster in that picture which corresponds to the support in the version of the exercise Jim gives. Also, in the picture on the book, the bolster is lower on the back than it is in the stronger exercise Jim proposes. But you get the idea.)
The situation of the body in this family of exercises is similar to its situation in 'the fish' asana. In fact, this family of exercises could be considered a set of supported variants of 'the fish' asana.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 10 2006 12:46:43 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 12:42:38 PM
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| Got it. Thanks David.. the picture really helped |
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drugs, depression, and yoga
