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 What exactly is the Soul?
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Oct 26 2018 :  08:51:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by lalow33

GOT(jonesboy), I'm thinking Game Of Thrones. So, what's everyone's experience as a soul? Is it you that travels around the universe? Is it witnessing for you? Is it the merging? Is it being light? Is it unity?



Hi lalow,

I have given the wrong impression.

If you are traveling you are not being and it is separation, it is still in the local mind.

More like you realize it, then expand to be all things. No place to go because you are already it.

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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1126 Posts

Posted - Oct 27 2018 :  12:10:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Jonesboy
Because of our physical location in this world, we call this world local and we called all other worlds that exist in the mind astral but all worlds that we can accesss and take cognizance of , is within mind - I believe; on the screen of our “I AM” , irrespective of what you are identifying your “I” with, the small self or unify with The One. I may be wrong but my reasoning is telling me that if you are cognizant of a world - this one or another - it is still within the same unit, the same Kula, as you termed it.


Sey
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jusmail

India
453 Posts

Posted - Oct 28 2018 :  12:32:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry for coming to the party late. Here at AYP, we are very familiar with the phrase: The guru is in you. The corollary to that statement would be: God dwells in us, as us. Ouch, out of the window goes the concept of the soul! As humans we desperately want to cling on to such labels. However, self inquiry eventually reveals that we are the guru, God, consciousness, pure awareness, sat-chit-ananda, unbounded awareness or whatever one may want to call it. www.Swamij.com has a nice mp3 that covers Christianity and non-duality.

Another statement is also worth remembering: The present is now; the future is now; eternity is now. Ouch, out of the window go concepts like past life, karma, birth/death, Judgment Day, purgatory, etc. As humans, it is difficult to give up such labels. Also, we don't know everything outside our perview. Hope these thoughts help!

'Wisdom tells me I am nothing, love tells me I am everything. Between the two, my life flows.' Quotes of Nisargadatta Maharaj
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Oct 29 2018 :  09:12:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

Dear Jonesboy
Because of our physical location in this world, we call this world local and we called all other worlds that exist in the mind astral but all worlds that we can accesss and take cognizance of , is within mind - I believe; on the screen of our “I AM” , irrespective of what you are identifying your “I” with, the small self or unify with The One. I may be wrong but my reasoning is telling me that if you are cognizant of a world - this one or another - it is still within the same unit, the same Kula, as you termed it.


Sey



The Kula, is a KS term to express how one can be and feel everything in the universe within them, as them.

So not sure what you mean by the same kula if you are perceiving a world. Are you more of an AV type saying the world is an illusion and the goal is to realize that?

Edited by - jonesboy on Oct 29 2018 09:57:26 AM
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Oct 29 2018 :  09:17:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jusmail

Sorry for coming to the party late. Here at AYP, we are very familiar with the phrase: The guru is in you. The corollary to that statement would be: God dwells in us, as us. Ouch, out of the window goes the concept of the soul! As humans we desperately want to cling on to such labels. However, self inquiry eventually reveals that we are the guru, God, consciousness, pure awareness, sat-chit-ananda, unbounded awareness or whatever one may want to call it. www.Swamij.com has a nice mp3 that covers Christianity and non-duality.

Another statement is also worth remembering: The present is now; the future is now; eternity is now. Ouch, out of the window go concepts like past life, karma, birth/death, Judgment Day, purgatory, etc. As humans, it is difficult to give up such labels. Also, we don't know everything outside our perview. Hope these thoughts help!

'Wisdom tells me I am nothing, love tells me I am everything. Between the two, my life flows.' Quotes of Nisargadatta Maharaj




You are confusing Mystical Christianity with the teachings of the church.

Jesus would agree on the point of the present moment.

91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you." He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."

My point is, that present moment is much deeper than what one may first think it is.

I agree the guru is in you. I also know that one can have multiple gurus and that there is nothing wrong with getting a little extra help.

34. Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1126 Posts

Posted - Oct 29 2018 :  10:08:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy

quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

Dear Jonesboy
Because of our physical location in this world, we call this world local and we called all other worlds that exist in the mind astral but all worlds that we can accesss and take cognizance of , is within mind - I believe; on the screen of our “I AM” , irrespective of what you are identifying your “I” with, the small self or unify with The One. I may be wrong but my reasoning is telling me that if you are cognizant of a world - this one or another - it is still within the same unit, the same Kula, as you termed it.


Sey



The Kula, is a KS term to express how one can be and feel everything in the universe within them, as them.

So not sure what you mean by the same kula if you are perceiving a world. Are you more of an AV type saying the world is an illusion and the goal is to realize that?



Ops, Sorry, I may have misunderstood the use of the word. I understood it to mean One World within you, as you, but you mentioned that there are also endless other Worlds created by Buddhas (Pure lands?) that is not within you and not you. So I was thinking that this cannot be.
Not important.

Oh and I am not anything (AV or otherwise) . I am just trying to understand things from my direct experience of them. And that, of course, evolves.

Sey

Edited by - SeySorciere on Oct 29 2018 10:22:06 AM
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lalow33

USA
929 Posts

Posted - Nov 06 2018 :  02:48:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
A nice discussion. I still don't know.
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Nov 08 2018 :  10:28:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy

quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

Dear Jonesboy
Because of our physical location in this world, we call this world local and we called all other worlds that exist in the mind astral but all worlds that we can accesss and take cognizance of , is within mind - I believe; on the screen of our “I AM” , irrespective of what you are identifying your “I” with, the small self or unify with The One. I may be wrong but my reasoning is telling me that if you are cognizant of a world - this one or another - it is still within the same unit, the same Kula, as you termed it.


Sey



The Kula, is a KS term to express how one can be and feel everything in the universe within them, as them.

So not sure what you mean by the same kula if you are perceiving a world. Are you more of an AV type saying the world is an illusion and the goal is to realize that?



Ops, Sorry, I may have misunderstood the use of the word. I understood it to mean One World within you, as you, but you mentioned that there are also endless other Worlds created by Buddhas (Pure lands?) that is not within you and not you. So I was thinking that this cannot be.
Not important.

Oh and I am not anything (AV or otherwise) . I am just trying to understand things from my direct experience of them. And that, of course, evolves.

Sey



I did not mean to give the impression that there is anything that is not within you. We all share the same essence.

Maybe this will help explain things a little better.

It is more like we "bubble up" from emptiness. In the that bubbling up (of potential) process, we manifest in the broader buddhamind space. Kind of like the primordial buddha providing a stable bubble (what we call the universe), so that we can grow and stabilize as a being.

As part of this individual stabilization, everyone becomes "self aware". In this early self aware phase, one becomes attached to various items that they perceive in the stable bubble of buddhamind. This attachment is basis of all of the ego stuff that sentient beings experience.

We have not "fallen" from emptiness based upon any "lack". It is more like we "bubble up" from emptiness. In the that bubbling up (of potential) process, we manifest in the broader buddhamind space. Kind of like the primordial buddha providing a stable bubble (what we call the universe), so that we can grow and stabilize as a being.

As part of this individual stabilization, everyone becomes "self aware". In this early self aware phase, one becomes attached to various items that they perceive in the stable bubble of buddhamind. This attachment is basis of all of the ego stuff that sentient beings experience.

The growth of the individual self aware bubble continues over a very long time. Wisdom starts when one begins to "clear out" all of the underlying ego attachment within the individual self aware bubble. Higher wisdoms comes as one starts to further expand and integrate that self aware bubble into the broader buddhamind space.

When one begins to integrate into buddhamind (3rd & 4th bhumi), the clarity of this buddhamind radiates into the world. That clarity/energy is often called "light". That light though not able to be really seen (as it is clear), can be felt at a subconscious by all beings. Beings are naturally attracted to that light, and hence the beings look to that person radiating for guidance. (hence master-student dynamics)


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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1126 Posts

Posted - Nov 09 2018 :  04:51:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Jonesboy - now this explanation ties in with my current understanding from various experiences. I was visualizing a stream (straw-like) of consciousness, you are visualizing a bubble. We can work with that.
We still don't have an answer to what the Christian is referring to as " My Soul"


Sey
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Nov 09 2018 :  08:38:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere

Thank you Jonesboy - now this explanation ties in with my current understanding from various experiences. I was visualizing a stream (straw-like) of consciousness, you are visualizing a bubble. We can work with that.
We still don't have an answer to what the Christian is referring to as " My Soul"


Sey



I can only speak from a more Mystical Christian view.

That would be realizing the light/rainbow body.

In Eastern Orthodox Christianity realizing the light is called Theosis.
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Blanche

USA
526 Posts

Posted - Nov 10 2018 :  07:43:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The question should be “How to realize the soul?” Looking for answers to “What is the soul?” brings only intellectual responses, which are not satisfying, as we all can agree. Information is useful, but it can take one only so far. Blind people do not want just to hear testimonies about how the world looks; they want to heal and see it for themselves. We do not want to just hear things about the soul; we want to see it for ourselves.

As long there are still judgements, as long as it is still separation, there is no clear seeing. “Local mind,” “small self,” “soul,” etc. are all the same One, the Light. There is no meditation and outside-of-meditation – it is only One thing. If this is not obvious, the answer is still on the meditation cushion.

This discussion highlights again the value of practice.
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Dogboy

USA
1532 Posts

Posted - Nov 11 2018 :  10:23:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Nov 12 2018 :  09:14:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche

The question should be “How to realize the soul?”




If you are asking me.. Find a rare guru that can directly share oneness with you, that can help provide the space to let go of issues and fears. That helps move one along to such realizations.

I am sure that view is in the minority..

All the best
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Blanche

USA
526 Posts

Posted - Nov 16 2018 :  06:53:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
If you are asking me.. Find a rare guru that can directly share oneness with you, that can help provide the space to let go of issues and fears. That helps move one along to such realizations.




It is funny that you say this. In Tibetan Buddhism, the interest in spirituality is ignited by meeting a realized master. As we are multi-dimension beings, such a meeting could be in this world, but also in a dream, in meditation, in the mental space when we read a spiritual text, etc. Meeting a realized master makes us aware at some level of the Oneness.

As we are all here, on a spiritual forum, we are interested in spirituality, which means that we all had such a meeting with a realized master. Now we are practicing meditation and other techniques to clean up the nervous system and stabilize the state of Oneness.
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Nov 16 2018 :  08:00:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche

quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
If you are asking me.. Find a rare guru that can directly share oneness with you, that can help provide the space to let go of issues and fears. That helps move one along to such realizations.




It is funny that you say this. In Tibetan Buddhism, the interest in spirituality is ignited by meeting a realized master. As we are multi-dimension beings, such a meeting could be in this world, but also in a dream, in meditation, in the mental space when we read a spiritual text, etc. Meeting a realized master makes us aware at some level of the Oneness.

As we are all here, on a spiritual forum, we are interested in spirituality, which means that we all had such a meeting with a realized master. Now we are practicing meditation and other techniques to clean up the nervous system and stabilize the state of Oneness.




Not really.

In Tibetan Buddhism the Lama is the guru. The guru does not have to be realized.

All such practices of Guru and Yidam practices is not a sharing of Oneness with a divine being in Buddhism. Nor do they believe in mind to mind transmission. Within Buddhism it is all visualizing the divine qualities of the being within yourself. With the lama even though he may not be realized you are visualizing the ultimate lama.

There is a huge difference between, meditation, visualization and a being directly introducing you to greater depths of being. Of sharing Oneness.
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Blanche

USA
526 Posts

Posted - Nov 17 2018 :  07:44:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I was not talking about lamas. I was talking about the fact that that the initial interest in spirituality is triggered by meeting a realized master, according to the Tibetan Buddhism. So, if you are interested in spirituality, this is because you met a realized master one way or another.

Also, I have heard multiple teachers in the Kagyu Buddhism tradition talking about mind to mind transmission.
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Nov 17 2018 :  08:38:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche

I was not talking about lamas. I was talking about the fact that that the initial interest in spirituality is triggered by meeting a realized master, according to the Tibetan Buddhism. So, if you are interested in spirituality, this is because you met a realized master one way or another.

Also, I have heard multiple teachers in the Kagyu Buddhism tradition talking about mind to mind transmission.



I would love any reference to a mind to mind transmission in any Buddhist tradition. I have debated so many Buddhist on that topic and not a one has agreed it is possible. Not Dzogchen or Vajrayana. Nobody at Dharma Wheel or the Bum who are Buddhist would agree.

I have also never seen anything mention meeting a realized master in some fashion to start one on ones journey. If you could show me a reference I would love that as well.
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jusmail

India
453 Posts

Posted - Nov 17 2018 :  5:24:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
We are not talking about direct transmission here; but in the book Apprenticed to a Himalayan Master, one of the Buddhist lamas would frequently be in touch with Maheshwarnath Babaji via telepathy. Sri M, the author of the above-mentioned book, was a disciple of Maheshwarnath Babaji. Another good read in the style of "autobiography of a Yogi."
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lalow33

USA
929 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2018 :  05:48:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Sey,
You are my soul. Love ya!

Edited by - lalow33 on Nov 20 2018 06:47:58 AM
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Blanche

USA
526 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2018 :  06:59:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy

[quote]Originally posted by Blanche
I would love any reference to a mind to mind transmission in any Buddhist tradition. I have debated so many Buddhist on that topic and not a one has agreed it is possible. Not Dzogchen or Vajrayana. Nobody at Dharma Wheel or the Bum who are Buddhist would agree.

I have also never seen anything mention meeting a realized master in some fashion to start one on ones journey. If you could show me a reference I would love that as well.



We are talking about the experience of Oneness, not about an abiding state of realization/enlightenment. Transmission might not be the best word to describe the glimpse that someone would have in the presence of a master. It is more an allowing the mind to settle, so a deeper seeing can be possible. A realized teacher is like an open window to who we really are. How much one can see even through an open window depends on the purity of the nervous system. Again, here comes into discussion the value of having a spiritual practice, which works to purify the nervous system.

As I said, I have heard Tibetan teachers speak about this, so I do not have any written reference to share at this time. I will keep your wish in mind.

In the end, it does not matter what we believe or not believe – the proof of the pudding is in eating it.
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Nov 20 2018 :  7:02:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche

quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy

quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
I would love any reference to a mind to mind transmission in any Buddhist tradition. I have debated so many Buddhist on that topic and not a one has agreed it is possible. Not Dzogchen or Vajrayana. Nobody at Dharma Wheel or the Bum who are Buddhist would agree.

I have also never seen anything mention meeting a realized master in some fashion to start one on ones journey. If you could show me a reference I would love that as well.



We are talking about the experience of Oneness, not about an abiding state of realization/enlightenment. Transmission might not be the best word to describe the glimpse that someone would have in the presence of a master. It is more an allowing the mind to settle, so a deeper seeing can be possible. A realized teacher is like an open window to who we really are. How much one can see even through an open window depends on the purity of the nervous system. Again, here comes into discussion the value of having a spiritual practice, which works to purify the nervous system.

As I said, I have heard Tibetan teachers speak about this, so I do not have any written reference to share at this time. I will keep your wish in mind.

In the end, it does not matter what we believe or not believe – the proof of the pudding is in eating it.




Maybe some Kashmir Shaivism quotes will help.

quote:
The Master is the ferry that transports the


disciple over the ocean of thoughts-if, that is, the disciple is ready.



quote:
When such a disciple sits before his Master, all he has to do is to gaze


at him and be aware of his elevated state to feel the fragrance (vdsand) of

the Master's transcendental consciousness extending spontaneously

within him. Abhinava explains:




So gracious is he that, by transferring his own nature to those whose

consciousness is pure, they became one with him at his [mere] sight.



[quote]The disciple's consciousness thus suddenly expands within him like the


violent and rapid spread of poison through the body (bhujarigagaralavat).

He thus becomes one with his Master in the unifying bliss of universal

consciousness



What is being explained is a guru sharing Oneness, not just feeling silence, or blissed out by someone's presence.

http://community.livingunbound.net/...ntroduction/

I also agree that making oneself ripe for such a experience is very important. So yes, nothing wrong with meditation and energy practices. I highly encourage them.
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1126 Posts

Posted - Nov 21 2018 :  03:03:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I think I once reported on my experience with meeting Ajahn Sumedho some years ago.

I gazed into his eyes and fell deeply, deeply in Love. I felt...found.


Sey
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1126 Posts

Posted - Nov 21 2018 :  03:04:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by lalow33

Hey Sey,
You are my soul. Love ya!



Soulmates - love that!


Sey
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Blanche

USA
526 Posts

Posted - Nov 25 2018 :  11:32:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
What is being explained is a guru sharing Oneness, not just feeling silence, or blissed out by someone's presence.
...

I also agree that making oneself ripe for such a experience is very important. So yes, nothing wrong with meditation and energy practices. I highly encourage them.



A guru/realized being can share just as much as a student can take. Many people may meet a realized being, but not all will have the same experience. Some will not even recognize a spiritual master – or even notice him or her. The student’s readiness is important for realizing Oneness. And we can do something about this by engaging in spiritual practices.

When you are ready, everything is a teacher.

I agree with you, Oneness is not just silence – and Oneness is not different than silence. There is no way to really talk about Oneness – it is not some kind of playdough that makes everything and just takes different forms. In the way to Oneness, all the masks have to fall, all the attachments, the ideas, and beliefs. This world is not what it seems to be, we are not what the society teaches us that we are, time and space are not absolute, and so on.

Talking about Oneness is interesting – and it is even better when it includes a practical map to it, such as the AYP. It is the same thing like planning a trip to California: Talking about it is not enough - we need to drive there using a good map.
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Herb

Canada
111 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2018 :  07:44:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
The soul is the Self. Truth is truth, and Hinduism and Christianity meet beautifully on this subject. Following are two teachings, one from the Bible and mainstream Christianity(Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox), the other from a Hindu Sage:

“At the moment of death, the soul returns to God, Who gave it to us.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 This means that the soul(Self) has existed from eternity and is undying. It lives on after our physical body has perished, for eternity. Forget the notion that each of us has an individual soul. This false concept only comes from unenlightened Christians and Hindus. There is only one soul and it is one with everything, both visible and invisible, “of all that is, seen and unseen.”*
*from the Nicene Creed

“On stilling all thoughts, the pure Consciousness remains. This is the Self, this is happiness and bliss. It was ever present before you were born and will exist for all eternity. Realize this and you will have eternal life.”
Ramana Maharshi

Now, all that being said, Atman is Brahman. We may realize the Self by looking within, but at the moment of Self-realization, we realize that our soul is one with everything and that we are the Self. This back and forth use of the words “soul” and “Self” is only confusing until you realize the oneness of these two terms. Christianity and Hinduism both believe in the reality of oneness, that God or Consciousness is all that really exists, from the highest most enlightened stand-point. All their other teachings are only relative truths designed to help your finite human mind grasp the uncomprehensible infiniteness of God.

“People insist on asking me questions and so I must reply. But truth(God) is beyond words.”
Ramana






Edited by - Herb on Dec 23 2018 08:33:48 AM
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