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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 15 2007 : 2:25:58 PM
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Hi all,
let's see if I can get this topic correctly accross ...
Many times, if I am honest to others (which I usually want to be),
I experience being exploited. May be, it's just that I am too
open and honestly showing my own weak points and shortcomings,
and thus the other person uses this to his own advantage
and to my own disadvantage in terms of business transactions.
The other side of the coin: because of such experiences I also find
in myself a tendency to find loopholes in laws and use them for
my own advantage.
Laws: there are laws which are really stupid. Example:
imangine yourself in the middle of nowhere at a traffic light,
the light shows red, but there is nobody near the crossing.
Now, I personally easily will risk to cross the road inspite
of the red light. Am I bending the law to how it suits me, am I
loading some karmic reaction by this action ? Am I being dishonest ?
Where is the borderline of honesty and dishonesty ?
If I am downloading music from the internet without paying for it,
is this dishonest (it may come through utilities like bearshare
or others which may be considered a grey area) ?
What about copying software, copying a book ?
Looking forward for your comments
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2007 : 9:45:20 PM
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Yes it is stealing to download music from bearshare etc. if it is still the property of the musician.
but the traffic light- I don't see how any karma is generated because it hurts no one. You are just taking a risk because cops love hiding. I do the same thing occasionally depending on how remote the location is. Or if I'm a little afraid a cop may be watching, we can turn right on a red here, so I make a right, a U-turn, and another right. The U-turn is marginally legal sometimes in a remote area.
In business transactions, you need to learn to negotiate better. It is a form of salesmanship, and applies to all areas of life not just business. People with low self esteem or a small ego tend to show their weak points, thinking they are being honest (been there for years), when in fact they are not being totally honest because they are subconsciously ignoring their own strong points.
If you learn to amplify your own strong points, and show them first and foremost in business, then later you can always give back to the other person and look like a nice guy. Don't tell him you are giving back because of some weak point he doesn't know about. Just give back to the point you feel comfortable about the total transaction, and he'll love you for it.
there is undoubtedly some weak point he didn't reveal either.
That is the way you do business, and also the way you interact on a day by day basis.
Anyone who goes around hollering his weaknesses is uncomfortable for people to be around. If you show off your strong points, people still know you have weaknesses, but they will be more comfortable around you.
If someone points out a weak point you have, if you acknowledge it with a reaction that shows confidence, people will think you are strong in spite of your weaknesses, and they will want to be like you and feel comfortable around you. That's the best way to do business. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2007 : 11:37:12 PM
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Hi Wolfgang,
Yes, we can make the choice if we want to influence conditions to our advantage, while compromising some measure of honesty, or if we want to uphold the code of honesty within ourselves uncompromisingly, and thereby be willing to accept some slightly more inconvenient outer conditions, when others might exploit us. The way I see it, at least for myself, is that the more inner silence there is, the less attachment there will be to outer conditions, and the more I will value the "inner" codes of honesty, truth, reality etc. These codes feel like a strength. Even if others may deceive or exploit us, at least they can see the example that there is an alternative to playing the game where everyone works for their own benefit, or that of who they work for. And, some will get the message and meet us with more honesty if we take the initiative.
Interesting that you mention the red lights and the law. I have found myself in that situation too. I don't think that law in itself is stupid. If there were specific exemptions stated, when the red light could be passed depending on traffic volume, distance of free view etc., it would get too complicated and many would be tempted to compromise even those exemptions to their own advantage. We would probably have more accidents. I would use my own discernment. If I would think I had a justifiable reason to cross a red light, in an emergency or otherwise, I would do it. If I was in the middle of nowhere, with a red light, I might also just sit there to test my own willingness and patience to follow the outer law. I might discover something new about myself.
I don't see a straight correlation between following laws of society and the type of karma we create. I don't think that automatically following outer laws will create "good" karma and give us salvation. If we simply followed outer laws without using our own discernment, we would just become robots. One way the concept of karma can be seen, is as limitations in our consciousness, or filters, that obstruct the view of universal Oneness (non-duality) of all and everyone, and create the illusion that we are fundamentally separate from everything and everyone else. Included in this view can be what consequences our actions promote for other people, a consciousness of Oneness or of separation.
So, actions that are motivated by, or promoting a consciousness of separation, or duality, will reinforce the filters of duality. Actions that are motivated by, or promoting the consciousness of the fundamental oneness of all life, will dissolve these filters. And so will using spiritual techniques, like meditation. These types of actions will serve to benefit all (including ourselves) and will not put ourselves over others. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2007 : 08:23:31 AM
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My belief is that karma is created in relation to our intentions and how we affect other people. If someone steals a $1000 piece of jewelry, but only gets $100 for it at the pawn shop, his bad karma would be for $1000.
If you break a law, but nobody is harmed, there is no karma.
If you intentionally try to hurt someone, but they are not hurt, there is no karma. If you are not trying to hurt someone, but you do by accident, there is no karma.
So I believe to create karma you need two things; intent and effect.
This is just what I've come up with; I don't have any authority to back it up, but it seems to work out quite fairly, and keeps me from feeling guilty about unimportant things. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 16 2007 8:46:03 PM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2007 : 2:12:54 PM
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Ramakrishna sent a pupil to the market to get some supplies. The pupil came back much sooner than expected and had spent much more than expected as well. When Ramakrishna asked him why, the student replied, "Oh master, you didn't expect me to spend my time haggling with the merchants when I could be back here learning yoga from you, did you?" "Idiot!," Ramakrishna replied. "Don't mistake stupidity for spirituality/saintliness." (can't remember which)
You made me think of this funny story, Wolfgang. I think this applies somehow to your post. Hope you get as much out of it as I do.
Best, yb.
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2007 : 03:39:03 AM
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Thanks for your replies.
Let me tell you a story I had about 2 years ago:
I brought some cash into the bank, some for my own account
and some for my daughter's account, and I also withdrew
some money from a second account. There was some
confusion going on and due to the confusion the clerk
at the counter made some mistake and later when I got home,
I realised that an error was made in my favor: I ended up
with 100 Euro more than I was supposed to have.
I was tempted to keep my mouth shut and keep the money.
In the end however I returned the money.
Who would have been hurt if I kept the money ?
The bank would have been hurt, but the bank is not
a person - it is an impersonal institution.
Can an impersonal institution be hurt ?
Would I have created some bad karma if I kept the money ?
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2007 : 09:47:06 AM
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Hi Wolfgang,
To me, yes it would have created "bad" karma. Every thought word and deed is like a little pebble (or big rock) that drops into a pool and has its ripple effect. It is according to your consciense, your internal sense of right and wrong, and its effect on you and then independently from you as well, its actual effect in the karmic pool. There is right and wrong from your own imperfect personal viewpoint and from a God's eye point of view as well.
How would you feel about yourself if you would have kept the money and how would that have effected your future actions with that accumulated knowledge of having done wrong in our unconscious? More impurities to clear out thru meditation and a bad example for your kids.
When someone defaults on their credit card and declares bankruptcy, the burden shifts to all the collective card holders in terms increased rates, etc. Everyone suffers. It is the ripple effect. And you feel bad about yourself whether you admit it or not.
But we are in the realm of character and hence personality here and the drama of human life. I think that perfection refers to perfection of character (right action, yama and niyama). Apparently, you can be imperfect and still be enlightened to a high degree. However, according to what I understand of Yogani's model/paradigm, your degree of character perfection should correspond to your degree of enlightenment, at least ideally.
Some half developed thoughts on the subject.
Best, yb. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2007 : 11:21:49 PM
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Apparently, you can be imperfect and still be enlightened to a high degree. However, according to what I understand of Yogani's model/paradigm, your degree of character perfection should correspond to your degree of enlightenment, at least ideally.
Hi Yogibear,
Interesting thoughts. I have thought about this myself. Do we automatically become more "perfect" morally by meditating and manifesting more and more inner silence? According to what Yogani says in the discussion below: "Pure bliss consciousness is the source of morality", this seems to be the case.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....C_ID=410#384
Using character development as a synonym to morality, then one could say: If morality is an aspect of enlightenment, then there can not be a certain measure of enlightenment realized in an individual without the corresponding measure of character development (?). |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2007 : 11:37:43 PM
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I agree with yogibear. The bank is not an impersonal institution. A person or persons own it, and would be hurt somehow. Maybe not much, but like my previous post said, your bad karma would be for 100 euro anyway.
You would know if God wants to give you money for a surprise, because it will show up in a way that there is no way to return it to its rightful owner. like if your 100 km from civilization and nobody in sight, and it's just laying there. . . |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2007 : 11:42:59 PM
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It is hard to imagine someone being oneness with all and not expressing a great degree of natural morality. Selfishness and immorality go with the illusion of a separate self. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2007 : 12:55:41 PM
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That being said, if I had $100 in my hand like that I would probably have had to think about it at least twice . If I was in dire straits it would be easy to see it as a gift, or to decide to deal with the karma later. There you have my current condition of morality. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2007 : 10:10:48 AM
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| It happens to me a lot, and I always give it back. however, if I discover it at a time and place that i would have to go way out of my way to give it back, I won't. I figure I owe the money, not my time and inconvenience. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2007 : 4:18:22 PM
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Hi you guys,
This is another good parable from Ramakrishna along these lines:
A cobra was terrorizing a village. The villagers called in a yogi to try and solve the problem as they were unsuccessful catching or killing the snake. The yogi, having learned the language of the jungle from his master, talked with the snake and initiated it into the science of yoga. He taught the cobra the yamas and niyamas and in particular, ahimsa and not to bite the villagers. The snake took the lesson to heart and no longer was aggressive towards the villagers. The yogi went on his way. He came back a few weeks later and found the snake near its home, beaten to within an inch of its life. He asked the cobra what had happened. The snake told him that he had followed his instructions, behaved himself when he encountered the villagers, but when he did so, the villagers attacked him and he barely escaped with his life. The yogi said to him, "Hey, I told you not to bite the people. I didn't say you couldn't hiss."
Best, yb. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2007 : 09:41:48 AM
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Hi weaver,
quote:
Using character development as a synonym to morality, then one could say: If morality is an aspect of enlightenment, then there can not be a certain measure of enlightenment realized in an individual without the corresponding measure of character development (?).
It looks good on paper. It is way beyond me, tho. Some of these guys are like the wide receiver in football who consistently makes the big play but drops the easy one. It would be easier for us lesser mortals if they could be consistent across the board.
I like to think that JC, Buddha, and the pharoahs and high priests of ancient Eygpt, at least at its peak of development, manifested perfect behavior in what appears to us, a rational, orderly manner.
And then you have some one like Neem Karoli Baba who seems to manifest a kind of perfection in a completely chaotic manner.
I don't know.
More half developed thoughts. Best, yb.
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kensbikes100
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2018 : 12:06:04 PM
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Over 10 years later, I think not stopping at teh red light has a consequence. It may be that you were not seen by law enforcement and it may be you correctly determined there were no other drivers who could see you. But what if pedestrian children saw it? Now they are seeing examples of how adults may not obey the law. I think this tends to cause a negative viewpoint in society.
I cannot say there is any karmic effect, because I am not a student of the matter. But can you commit an act that has a potentially negative consequence without it affecting your karma? If not, then the murderer needs only to keep his crimes secret and free of visible consequence. |
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kensbikes100
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2018 : 8:43:41 PM
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I think there is another possible karmic effect of not observing the read light.
We live in societies that are networks of people, ideas, constraints, and behaviors. One behavior that everyone must know and practice to protect themselves and others from hazards, is how to cross streets safely and properly. People on the other expectation that you will do this, people driving cars, cyclists, and the pedestrians walking all have this expectation of every other person using the road. The way we all expect to have these practices and tools applied is quickly and with due attention. If you fail to practice them others may be delayed as they practice theirs, and the mental model is broken.
One may say, "so what?" But I think your action makes others look two or three times before they feel its safe to cross, demanding extra attention from other road users.
In general it places an added stress on the other road users.
I don't want to say that causes crashes, but I wonder if it could do so? |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2018 : 10:57:43 PM
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Ken,
You are in to karma, even though you say you are not. |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2018 : 06:51:15 AM
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Is it wrong to cross the street when the light is red if no car is around?
Different people will have different answers to this question, as a reflection of the place where we are, the way we think about ourselves and the world. Rather than looking for a definitive answer, which will only be another rule to obey, we could take this opportunity and consider how we relate to rules – and how we relate to life in general. We have more freedom than we realize. Do we always need a green light to cross the street? How do we cross the street if there is no light and street crossing/crosswalk?
By extension, what do we need to be happy? Is it a new job, a new car, a beautiful other next to us? What do we need to be truly fulfilled? To be ourselves? To do the right thing? Are all these things necessary or not? What is holding us back?
We have more freedom than we realize. 
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Money, laws and honesty
