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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 26 2017 : 10:21:41 PM
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and if you want to get to it - you got to get out of the way 
Kunar  |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2017 : 01:39:27 AM
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I have several times not followed Yogani's advice and tweaked or replace techniques. I always end up (usually months down the line) realizing - Darn! Yogani was right. But do I regret following my intuition and going my way? Absolutely not. I end up learning something else, gaining a different perspective and new understandings.
Sey  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2017 : 11:18:16 AM
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Hi guys,
This is an interesting point and it is something that does constantly surprise me.
If we were setting out to climb a high mountain for the first time, and we took a guide with us who has 40 years of mountain climbing experience, and who has already climbed the mountain several times under different weather conditions, would we turn around to them at the base of the mountain and say: "Actually I think I can wing this on my own."? Or even when we are half way up the mountain, tackling some of the more challenging parts that need ropes and carabiners, with a one hundred foot vertical drop, would we turn around and say: "Actually I have brought my own tools with me, and although they have never been tested before, I think it would be more fun to give them a go"?
When it comes to learning to fly an aeroplane, we would not say to the instructor : "I think it is O.K. if you stay on the ground. My inner voice is telling me that I am going to be alright." Or even if we were learning to drive a car, we would not just get in and go for it on our own on a public road, doing what we think is going to be the most fun, or the most interesting thing.
But when it comes to spiritual practices, for some reason, there does seem to be an attitude, especially in the West, that it is O.K. to basically just try and wing it and hope for the best. In the East it is very different. In India and other countries, people will search for a good teacher and will follow the guidance given without question, based on the idea that people with more experience than us have more knowledge. There is also a much stronger understanding in India, among the general population, that spiritual practices can be dangerous if undertaken without guidance, which is something that does not seem to have carried over into the West in a very meaningful way.
When it comes to following the guidance of a teacher, it is not only a question of avoiding dangerous or harmful situations. Many of the paths up the mountain are actually dead ends, or worse, they just go around the base of the mountain, never getting higher. With a dead end path, at least people begin to realize after a while that it is going nowhere, and they can backtrack and try another path. But with paths that meander around the base of the mountain, it can take a very long time for people to realize that they are basically not making much progress. So the paths around the base are actually more of a potential distraction than the paths that go up, but end in a dead-end.
A teacher who has been raised above the mountain, will know which paths are dangerous (leading over cliff edges), which paths are dead ends, and which ones just go around in circles. This is why I am so often amazed when I see people trying to find their own way up the mountain, when there are very experienced guides available.
Christi |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2017 : 12:30:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mykal K
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2017 : 12:31:31 PM
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| @ everybody: |
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Mykal K
Germany
266 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2017 : 2:24:50 PM
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Hi Christi,
I will share something with you.
As I was at a Yoga teacher training, a teacher (Twee Merrigan) came to me, and said:
"Forget the voice of the teacher. Go inside, and find your way of doing the movement. Asanas are just sketches, the real movement comes from the inside. For you, it might me something different than what the teacher says."
I also hold one massage teacher very high in respect. His favourite saying is: "Good technique, no feeling".
I have also seen many teachers carving their systems,techniques and gurus in stars, saying that they are the best. I am not impressed anymore.
I have seen what guru worship can do to people. I am not a fan of it.
I fail to see how can blind faith be better than testing and trying to find one's own expression.
If anyone looks for such a student, I wonder if they have anything to teach at all. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2017 : 4:32:36 PM
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quote:
I will share something with you.
As I was at a Yoga teacher training, a teacher (Twee Merrigan) came to me, and said:
"Forget the voice of the teacher. Go inside, and find your way of doing the movement. Asanas are just sketches, the real movement comes from the inside. For you, it might me something different than what the teacher says."
I also hold one massage teacher very high in respect. His favourite saying is: "Good technique, no feeling".
I have also seen many teachers carving their systems,techniques and gurus in stars, saying that they are the best. I am not impressed anymore.
I have seen what guru worship can do to people. I am not a fan of it.
I fail to see how can blind faith be better than testing and trying to find one's own expression.
If anyone looks for such a student, I wonder if they have anything to teach at all.
Hi Mykal,
If you take a guide with you to help you to climb a mountain, then it is not necessary to worship the guide. They are just a guide, like a brother or a sister or a friend, who can help you to find the way, because they have climbed the mountain before and know how to use the ropes and climbing gear. You also do not need to have blind faith in the guide. If you feel that the guide does not know how to climb the mountain, or does not know how to use the ropes, or climbing gear, then you are free to find another guide.
So I am not advocating (or dismissing) either guru worship, or blind faith. For some, devotion to a teacher is their natural inclination and some people do have very strong faith and that can carry them forward with a lot of momentum. Other people have less faith and devotion and that is fine too. What I am saying is that, without a guide of some form, it can be a dangerous and long journey and I have seen plenty of people come unstuck through self-experimentation on the spiritual path. Yogani has as well, which is why there are so many cautions and warnings built into the AYP system. It is to prevent people from spraining an ankle (metaphorically) or taking a wrong turn. Without structures in place, there can be a lot of failed experiments.
Will there come a time when you can let go of the voice of the teacher/ teachings and follow your own way? I would say yes. When you know that the mountain is not real, that could be the time, although even then, it could be premature. Until then, it is best to follow the voice of the teacher/ teachings.
It is your path though, so it is always your call.
See this lesson for more on the relationship between the student and the teacher/ teachings:
Lesson 57 - The Guru is in Me?
Christi |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2017 : 6:22:46 PM
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good technique no feeling
on those who are devoted to me and worship me with love ,i bestow the yoga of understanding by which they come to me
the gita divine manifestations .
ones own expression
whatever is born whether animate or inanimate know ,oh bharata prince ,that it is through union of the field and the knower of the field
the gita divine matter and spirit
i am not impressed anymore
all beings are from their very birth ,o bharata are deluded by the spell of pairs of opposites arising from desire and aversion
the gita the way of realization
i have seen guru worship and see what it can do
those who worship the gods go to the gods ,those who worship the manes go to the manes ,those who worship the spirits go to the spirits ,and those who worship me come to me .
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2017 : 02:19:10 AM
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Dear Christi,
But spiritual practices are not like any of the activities you have mentioned above mountain-climbing and learning to fly. It is way more intimate than that. It is a personal matter. The "Guru is in you" aspect of AYP is what I like best. Yogani gives excellent instructions and advice - after having learned from his experience. I do not want to live by Yogani's experience - I want to take his advice into consideration but live by own experience; my own trial and error. And I am always delighted when I finally understand the truth of his way - but my way. Perhaps one day the student will outgrow the teacher and bring out even more effective techniques. How can we learn new ways if we stick to one way only? Where's the innovation in that?
Sey
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2017 : 04:19:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Dear Christi,
But spiritual practices are not like any of the activities you have mentioned above mountain-climbing and learning to fly. It is way more intimate than that. It is a personal matter. The "Guru is in you" aspect of AYP is what I like best. Yogani gives excellent instructions and advice - after having learned from his experience. I do not want to live by Yogani's experience - I want to take his advice into consideration but live by own experience; my own trial and error. And I am always delighted when I finally understand the truth of his way - but my way. Perhaps one day the student will outgrow the teacher and bring out even more effective techniques. How can we learn new ways if we stick to one way only? Where's the innovation in that?
Sey
Hi Sey and all,
The spiritual path is similar to the things that I have mentioned above, in the sense that there are techniques that need to be learned and dangers and risks involved. And that those dangers and risks increase if proper advice and guidance is not given and followed.
The phrase "The guru is in you", does not mean to simply try out whatever you want and see how it turns out. It means that ultimately we all have to take responsibility for our own path, which is a different thing. This is from lesson 57:
"Q: You end every message with the phrase, "The guru is in you." Does this mean I am my own guru and don't need any outer guru or teachers?
A: No, it doesn't mean that. We all need outer knowledge to open ourselves to inner experience. The phrase is intended as a constant reminder that your enlightenment depends on you more than anyone, because it is only through your desire and action that divine experience can rise in you. It is only through your nervous system that pure bliss consciousness and divine ecstasy can be known. You cannot delegate it. It is only by you making a daily effort to purify your nervous system that anything can happen. It is you who are making the journey.
Maybe your journey means surrendering at the feet of an outer guru for your whole life. Or maybe it means purifying yourself by following a number of teachers over your lifetime. Whatever the outer relationships turn out to be, it is the divine expression coming from inside through your heart's longing that will lead you to them. What happens outside is a reflection of what is happening inside, not the other way around. This is the meaning of, "The guru is in you." [Yogani]
So I am not saying that people need to stick to only one way. Someone could have a number of different teachers or follow a number of different spiritual systems over a lifetime. What I am saying is that whatever path you are taking, it is important to have guidance from someone who has been there before and to follow that guidance. Over the years I have seen too many people come unstuck through attempting to make their own way, changing techniques and practices as they see fit, according to the inclinations in their mind in any particular moment.
Following guidance does not mean that people will not have their own experience. Of course they will, and they will learn from that and can share that experience with others.
And certainly one day the student will master what the teacher has been teaching and grow their own wings and fly. But they have to grow their wings first. That is the more difficult part.
Christi
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2017 : 05:14:21 AM
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Outer teachers and gurus are storehouses of spiritual knowledge and energy we attract and are drawn to on our journey to the infinite. Ultimately, our interaction with them is inside. Inside is where the rubber meets the road.
The guru is a flow of consciousness that begins in us, travels outward on our desire, connects outer knowledge, and then expands inside us as the knowledge is applied. 'Yogani'
'Om Sri Gurubhyo Namah' (I pay my respect to all teachers) |
Edited by - Charliedog on Mar 28 2017 05:16:03 AM |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2017 : 06:54:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
When it comes to following the guidance of a teacher, it is not only a question of avoiding dangerous or harmful situations. Many of the paths up the mountain are actually dead ends, or worse, they just go around the base of the mountain, never getting higher.
Christi
Well said, Christi. |
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Mykal K
Germany
266 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2017 : 08:42:57 AM
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quote:
good technique no feeling
on those who are devoted to me and worship me with love ,i bestow the yoga of understanding by which they come to me
the gita divine manifestations .
ones own expression
whatever is born whether animate or inanimate know ,oh bharata prince ,that it is through union of the field and the knower of the field
the gita divine matter and spirit
i am not impressed anymore
all beings are from their very birth ,o bharata are deluded by the spell of pairs of opposites arising from desire and aversion
the gita the way of realization
i have seen guru worship and see what it can do
those who worship the gods go to the gods ,those who worship the manes go to the manes ,those who worship the spirits go to the spirits ,and those who worship me come to me .
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sunyata
USA
1505 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2017 : 10:23:43 AM
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Listen to the wise, follow your inner guru, consistent practice. We can have it all, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Life becomes beautiful.
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2017 : 4:45:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
I have several times not followed Yogani's advice and tweaked or replace techniques. I always end up (usually months down the line) realizing - Darn! Yogani was right. But do I regret following my intuition and going my way? Absolutely not. I end up learning something else, gaining a different perspective and new understandings.
I know what you are saying and I completely relate.
And still, the one thing I have not seen you do Sey is come back to this forum and say - here's a new method I'm experimenting with and it's every bit as good as Yogani's advice. It's one thing to take a chance with your own practice (as long as you accept there may be unforeseen consequences) and quite another to tell new AYP practitioners on this forum that it's all the same whether they practice the techniques in the lessons or an alternative practice of their own making. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2017 : 01:10:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
I have several times not followed Yogani's advice and tweaked or replace techniques. I always end up (usually months down the line) realizing - Darn! Yogani was right. But do I regret following my intuition and going my way? Absolutely not. I end up learning something else, gaining a different perspective and new understandings.
I know what you are saying and I completely relate.
And still, the one thing I have not seen you do Sey is come back to this forum and say - here's a new method I'm experimenting with and it's every bit as good as Yogani's advice. It's one thing to take a chance with your own practice (as long as you accept there may be unforeseen consequences) and quite another to tell new AYP practitioners on this forum that it's all the same whether they practice the techniques in the lessons or an alternative practice of their own making.
My dear Blueraincoat - when and where have I ever told a new AYP practitioner that it's all the same whether they practice the techniques in the lessons or alternative ones? The discussion here is under Other Systems and is between advanced practitioners Mykal (30+ yrs, I think), Christi and myself. I am very conscious of being on an AYP forum and would never lead a beginner astray with confusing alternate, not AYP techniques. And I have already stated that I always end up understanding that Yogani's way is better. But there are a few things I would change/insist upon if AYP were my doing but it's not. And I respect that.
I will now give an example of when I deviated and gain understanding. Some time back, whilst doing SBP, the energy started moving automatically in microcosmic orbits in the abdomen and again in the head /chest region. I brought this up on the forum and Christi advised to sticking to the main sushumna channel - I did not. For several weeks, I explored the way those orbits worked. Now when someone Zen /Taoist will talk about microcosmic orbits, I will know from experience what s/he is talking about.
And frankly if I wanted to stick to what someone is telling me and not explore, I would have stayed in the catholic church where I was told to have faith and don't question.
Sey
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2017 : 04:33:36 AM
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| Exactly my point Sey. We are on the same page with this one. |
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Mykal K
Germany
266 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2017 : 06:11:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
I have several times not followed Yogani's advice and tweaked or replace techniques. I always end up (usually months down the line) realizing - Darn! Yogani was right. But do I regret following my intuition and going my way? Absolutely not. I end up learning something else, gaining a different perspective and new understandings.
I know what you are saying and I completely relate.
And still, the one thing I have not seen you do Sey is come back to this forum and say - here's a new method I'm experimenting with and it's every bit as good as Yogani's advice. It's one thing to take a chance with your own practice (as long as you accept there may be unforeseen consequences) and quite another to tell new AYP practitioners on this forum that it's all the same whether they practice the techniques in the lessons or an alternative practice of their own making.
This one is on me.
Hi BlueRaincoat,
I do not find I have made such a transgression.
I have said a few pointers to the new member. And I have also shared what I found to be a most beneficial modification of the SBP in my practice.
I also gave exact lesson where Yogani states his point of view, so there is no confusion about what AYP baseline is, and is not.
So far as I know, the member in question thanked himself and has enjoyed that there are multitude of opinions.
What you view as a weakness, I view as a strength.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2017 : 09:25:11 AM
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Hi Sey
quote:
I will now give an example of when I deviated and gain understanding. Some time back, whilst doing SBP, the energy started moving automatically in microcosmic orbits in the abdomen and again in the head /chest region. I brought this up on the forum and Christi advised to sticking to the main sushumna channel - I did not. For several weeks, I explored the way those orbits worked. Now when someone Zen /Taoist will talk about microcosmic orbits, I will know from experience what s/he is talking about.
Good to hear that you ignore my advice! 
Only kidding!
On a serious note, there are two aspects to this. One is to do with changing the procedure during Spinal Breathing. If, instead of tracing the spinal nerve with your attention during Spinal Breathing, you are following circular flows of energy in your body, then that is off the procedure of the practice, as I am sure you know. So it is off the practice which brings about purification and the experiences that accompany that, and into the experiences that arise. The danger there is that if we go off the basic procedure every time some new energetic experience comes up, then eventually we will always be off in experiences. It may well be interesting and we may learn things, but we are no longer doing the practice that brings about enlightenment. We are simply off enjoying the scenery.
That is one angle to it. The other angle is that it can be dangerous. In your case you were lucky and did not suffer any ill effects. There are some circulatory energies in the body however, that are dangerous to follow, even for advanced practitioners. Someone could end up needing months, or even years to recover from an experiment like that. So I cannot say to people: "Yes, go ahead, experiment without a teacher or without guidance, and see what happens."
In AYP people are not prevented from experimenting with practices, or even with mixing practices from other systems. But Yogani is always clear that it is the practitioner's own experiment and that we cannot predict the outcome, either over the short term or the long term. It is also difficult to provide support, as we do not know what will happen over the long term. It is because of the risks involved that I advise people to find an experienced teacher who can guide them if they are wanting to experiment with another practice. With no teacher, or tried and tested system in place, it is really all-bets-off in terms of what will happen.
So this isn't really the Catholic church, where people are asked to have faith and not to question. In AYP people can question why we do things the way we do -and they do a great deal . People can also experiment with mixing practices. But there is a baseline of practices in place, and Yogani does ask people not to change them so as to preserve the integrity of the system and minimize the risks involved in making adaptations.
On the subject of faith (shraddha) though, it is important. Without faith, when difficult challenges arise on the path, we would probably not be able to move beyond them. If the mind is saying that what we are attempting to do is too difficult, and that we should abandon it, sometimes it is only faith that can carry us through that stage. And it is a stage that can come up more than once. But faith is not really something that can be cultivated. It is more something that arises over time through practice. If we meet one challenge and are able to overcome that, then we will naturally have more faith that we can overcome the next one, and so on.
Christi |
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sunyata
USA
1505 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2017 : 09:43:01 AM
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Lovely, Christi.
We are all on different stages on this path- infants, toddlers, preteen, teenager and so forth. Not implying anyone is on a particular level.
But we all know, some toddlers or even teenagers like to touch the hot stove even after numerous cautionary advice from parents.
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2017 : 10:35:08 AM
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the way of knowledge
he who is full of faith and zeal and subdued his senses obtains knowledge ;having obtained knowledge he soon attains peace
but the man who is ignorant and without faith and always doubting goes to ruin .not this world nor the world beyond nor happiness is for the doubting soul
(ignorance in this context is one which does not know the self,doubting is doubt in the ability to attain self knowledge ) )
works do not bind the man ,o dhananjaya who relinquishes action through yoga, who`s doubts are destroyed by knowledge ,and who is self possessed
(self possessed ever witnessing the self,works are behavior of the gunas and natural action but the self remains unaffected,and results whether good or bad do not bind as fruits are given to the lord .
therefore arise with the sword of knowledge cut asunder this doubt about the self ,born of ignorance residing in your heart ,and devout yourself to yoga .arise o bharata.
(knowledge the discrimination we posses to tell the real from the non real which destroys grief and delusion )
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Edited by - kumar ul islam on Mar 29 2017 10:37:16 AM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2017 : 04:22:54 AM
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Dear Christi - thank you for the time and effort you put in your "voice of reason" (as I always call it). What amazes me though is people who, despite understanding that spiritual paths are all about surrender, still think they are in control and worst attempt to control others' paths. With the same set of practices, some of us will reach the the summit, others will get half-way up and yet others will go round and round the base of the mountain even after years of AYP (we already have a few expressing that). And a few who without any practices just jump straight to the top. It does not depend on any of us. Perhaps Mykal is meant to do SBP the other way round. At the end of the day - it is all mental construct. There are other yoga paths doing it that way - it is not all that strange nor oh, so dangerous.
Thank you all for the various thoughts on this. At the end of the day, there are people who will follow others instructions and never deviate from that; there are those who will listen to advice and then decide what to do and yet others who will throw caution, advice and instructions to the wind and forge ahead on their own. We need all three types of people, I believe.
Now this toddler does not believe in arguing past putting her point of view on the table, especially on something where the decision lies entirely with her.
Sey
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2017 : 08:48:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Dear Christi - thank you for the time and effort you put in your "voice of reason" (as I always call it). What amazes me though is people who, despite understanding that spiritual paths are all about surrender, still think they are in control and worst attempt to control others' paths. With the same set of practices, some of us will reach the the summit, others will get half-way up and yet others will go round and round the base of the mountain even after years of AYP (we already have a few expressing that). And a few who without any practices just jump straight to the top. It does not depend on any of us. Perhaps Mykal is meant to do SBP the other way round. At the end of the day - it is all mental construct. There are other yoga paths doing it that way - it is not all that strange nor oh, so dangerous.
Thank you all for the various thoughts on this. At the end of the day, there are people who will follow others instructions and never deviate from that; there are those who will listen to advice and then decide what to do and yet others who will throw caution, advice and instructions to the wind and forge ahead on their own. We need all three types of people, I believe.
Now this toddler does not believe in arguing past putting her point of view on the table, especially on something where the decision lies entirely with her.
Sey
Hi Sey,
I have not seen anyone trying to control your path.
There are cautions in place to help people avoid running into difficulty and they should be there. And they are there all the way through the AYP lessons. Whether people choose to heed those cautions or not, is up to them. Everyone is in charge of their own spiritual path.
Just for the sake of clarification, I did not say that reversing the flow of Spinal Breathing Pranayama is dangerous. I only said that it would likely be a slower path and that it could be problematic later on, which is different. There are other modifications that can be made to Spinal Breathing Pranayama, which would be dangerous though.
And yes, there will always be some people who will ignore any cautions given and do whatever they want. But does that mean that nobody should be warned about what is safe and what is not?
Going back to the mountain climbing analogy, I have climbed a lot of mountains in my life. Without the safety advise that I was given, I would probably not be alive today. I once got altitude sickness just after climbing an 18,000 foot peak in the Himalayas. Luckily I knew what to do and descended, even though I could hardly walk at the time.
So I am a big fan of safety advice.
As a teacher though, all one can do is give advice, and then people will do what they want with it.
Christi |
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sunyata
USA
1505 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2017 : 08:56:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Now this toddler does not believe in arguing past putting her point of view on the table, especially on something where the decision lies entirely with her.
Sey
That's one independent toddler we all love. Love you, Sey. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2017 : 02:36:30 AM
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| @ Christi- you are a master in untie all kind of knots in my opinion |
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| AYP Public Forum |
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An alternative Spinal Breathing practice
